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Siege Roller Changes


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Siege Roller Changes

In next week's patch, the Siege Roller won't destroy traps, auras and nodes! Rejoice! The Siege Roller caused players to never build certain defenses out of a certain crushing fear, and we figured that with our Chaos enemies providing enough counterplay, we can remove this.

What are we rejoicing for? We stopped building ground defenses because Siege Rollers would destroyed them, and now they are going to remove that problem for us, but replaced it with an even bigger problem: EMP Orcs. At least with Siege Rollers, they always spawned towards the back end of the wave, so for the majority of the wave ground defenses could put out damage, and Rollers moved slow so it was technically possible to get behind them and kill them before they made it to any traps, and if they destroyed traps they could be rebuilt for the next wave. It was even possible to not get any Siege Rollers at all in a map, but most people stopped using ground defenses anyway because they didn't want to take that gamble.

However, EMP Orcs are far worse for ground defenses than Siege Rollers ever were. Siege Rollers had no guarantee of spawning and when you did get them they weren't always in every lane. EMP Orcs are almost guaranteed to spawn in every lane on every wave. So at least when we only had to deal with Siege Rollers the ground defenses had decent up time. But with EMP Orcs, ground defenses are completely useless for much of the wave.

This change is not going to make traps viable again. Maybe in Chaos I, III, and IV they will be, but end game players still don't have the option to use many of the ground defenses, and the ones that can be used are much less effective. The existance of EMP Orcs almost makes it irrelevant whether or not Siege Rollers destroy ground defenses.

They're not throwing us a bone and allowing us to use those defenses that we've stopped using. They've only given us a bigger reason not to use them.

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they dont want every def to be useful at every chaos level it seems

they want us to use different towers for each chaos level

I dont think its that bad cause they also said chaos 5 is not gonna be the last chaos in the future so maybe in chaos 6 you could use traps again but not other towers

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Snaking Sands for example is one of the best ground defense even with rollers. 

Stop crying and kill the EMP orcs instead. 

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@ShadowBerry quote:

Snaking Sands for example is one of the best ground defense even with rollers. 

Stop crying and kill the EMP orcs instead. 

Right, lets just kill all the enemies before they get to the defenses... we're... using... to... kill... them... I feel like this logic is flawed in some way.

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EMP's are no longer going to be shown in every high tier map... And if Trendy listens to another thread's idea (and isom seemed interested), we might eventually get "themed" lanes, so even more times we can use ground defenses.

Besides... I'd rather deal with an enemy that TEMPORARILY stops my defense from working (and only when that specific one is alive and makes it to them) then an enemy that flat out destroys the tower I spent all my mana into, or just be forced to never upgrade it...

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Also don't agree with OP. EMP orcs temp disable for a short time at that. Once they are gone the ground defense stayed intact unlike the the siege roller that just destroyed your max tier traps and took all your mana. Oh by the way maybe not once per round but once per wave if you are not lucky.

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They just need to rotate end game monsters, some times you get EMP, sometimes you get Goedes/vanguards. Now I don't mean rotate every map or we would be fishing, but rather rotate once per week then everyone would be happy.

Maybe this analogy will help, I love playing Torbjorn, but not every map is defense, so on attack I go Zynatta and charge up 1shot terrible widowmakers. :D

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@ShadowBerry quote:

Snaking Sands for example is one of the best ground defense even with rollers. 

Stop crying and kill the EMP orcs instead. 

I was stuffing around with a C1 run earlier.. built the level with Snaking Sands (3000 Range)... man it was fun.. enemies constantly slow/stunned i did put down 2 SGT's for the flyers.. but otherwise was only SS.


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The idea of forcing players to only use certain towers in a certain difficulty based on the hard counters in that difficulty is a bit warped to begin with. Ofcourse, you can claim that "there are always towers which work" and this is very true, but not being able to play the characters you like to play is not fun or good for any game.

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@Robolord quote:

The idea of forcing players to only use certain towers in a certain difficulty based on the hard counters in that difficulty is a bit warped to begin with. Ofcourse, you can claim that "there are always towers which work" and this is very true, but not being able to play the characters you like to play is not fun or good for any game.

I see what you are saying. The thing is no one plays just one hero when they are building anyways (unless you are farming). Right now I love playing mystic as my main defense but I use towers from monk and lavamancer too. So to see EMP orcs doesn't really bother me. It isn't a constant stream of EMP orcs, so i just clean them out of a lane and move to the next lane. Mostly the towers that counter the EMP do a good job of keeping things manageable till I get there.

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I have used traps once since Trials, they are more land mines now, requiring mobs to step directly on them and only blowing the legs off the mob that steps on them.  Siege Roller could buff trap damage as it rolled over them and I still wouldn't use them.


Fire Auras are okay, but their target limitation makes them a bit meh.  Lightning Strike takes on the adage of lightning never strikes the same place twice, and by it's rate of fire that is pretty much a guarantee.


The fact is they are mostly underwhelming for their DU.  People will use fire auras and weapon manufacturers to farm C4 and at least that is something if not nothing.


You want consistency and reliability, flame throwers/frosties get the job done.  At least with the changes coming you can use PDTs, most other projectiles aren't really worth it.  As George Carlin said, "The pile of *** is too deep".  At least adding PDTs which can deal with the pile is something.


I think unless they nerf flamethrowers, they can't/wont really address the balance problems.

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

they dont want every def to be useful at every chaos level it seems

they want us to use different towers for each chaos level

I dont think its that bad cause they also said chaos 5 is not gonna be the last chaos in the future so maybe in chaos 6 you could use traps again but not other towers

It's not just that they don't want every defense to be useful, it's that they want a bunch of defenses to be entirely useless. What's the point of having them in the game if they can't be used at all?

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@Chappyy quote:


@Robolord quote:

The idea of forcing players to only use certain towers in a certain difficulty based on the hard counters in that difficulty is a bit warped to begin with. Ofcourse, you can claim that "there are always towers which work" and this is very true, but not being able to play the characters you like to play is not fun or good for any game.

I see what you are saying. The thing is no one plays just one hero when they are building anyways (unless you are farming). Right now I love playing mystic as my main defense but I use towers from monk and lavamancer too. So to see EMP orcs doesn't really bother me. It isn't a constant stream of EMP orcs, so i just clean them out of a lane and move to the next lane. Mostly the towers that counter the EMP do a good job of keeping things manageable till I get there.

Exactly, nobody builds with only one hero, but I play with the 4 base heroes and with the EV, i'm not interested in the other heroes, their towers do not seem interesting enough for me to play them. But meanwhile I cant use my cannonball and harpoon towers, cant use my trapstress, cant use my monk besides AA towers and cant use my EV for anything in chaos tier 1+. Why cant I just play my goddamned squire? Why? I want to play my squire and win with the proper placement and combination of towers from heroes I enjoy playing, but I am so forced into this one working meta! Its just no fun. And its not just the hard counters, but also the horrid unbalanced towers, training dummy is simply useless atm, boost aura is a giant joke even when I have a +20% boost aura DP shard and the normal +DP shard and many more towers are simply not in line with the rest.

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@NeedtoDie quote:

Aren't they removing EMP from chaos III and IV ?

Yes. I said traps will be useful in Chaos I, III and IV but useless in Chaos II and V.



@xArcAngel quote:

EMP's are no longer going to be shown in every high tier map... And if Trendy listens to another thread's idea (and isom seemed interested), we might eventually get "themed" lanes, so even more times we can use ground defenses.

Besides... I'd rather deal with an enemy that TEMPORARILY stops my defense from working (and only when that specific one is alive and makes it to them) then an enemy that flat out destroys the tower I spent all my mana into, or just be forced to never upgrade it...

EMPs are still going to show up on every high tier (CHAOS V) map. They are being removed from Chaos III and Chaos IV, but still present in Chaos V. And that was my thread about changing the lanes, but I didn't take Isom's response as being interested, I took it more as "we're going to do something else instead, not this, but let us know what you think of the change we do make".


That's great that you get to keep your defenses, but the down time on them is huge. Whenever the 1st EMP Orc walks by to 15 seconds after the last one walks by your upgraded defenses are doing zero damage.


@Chappyy quote:

Also don't agree with OP. EMP orcs temp disable for a short time at that. Once they are gone the ground defense stayed intact unlike the the siege roller that just destroyed your max tier traps and took all your mana. Oh by the way maybe not once per round but once per wave if you are not lucky.

Let's not pretend that the game gives us enough mana to max upgrade all traps. Unless the only traps you're using are Blaze Balloons, that's just not going to happen.

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Guy's I noticed a couple of you talking about upgrading your ground defenses, if traps are anything like Fire Auras, do not upgrade them its a waste of mana. I honestly cannot comment on traps/fissures/LSA etc but Fire Auras are terrible, my 44k DPS Fire Auras jump up by 4.4k which is almost worthless. 

Once you get your walls to maybe rank 4, you can consider upgrading them, but honestly its not worth it for the first 3 rounds.

Now I still have a lot to learn, as I am playing a zero crit build at the moment, which I will change possibly in the future and get my defense health (more charges) from Ascension. Without Defense Life you do not have enough charges to comfortably last a round LOL.

The main threat to fire auras assuming you position them out of EMP range which requires 50/50 range + 40% shard to make it comfortable and less pixel perfect is Berserker Orcs. These ladies take no damage and get straight to your blockades, where you need the HP. 

Blockades do better single target then Fire Auras, so upping there hp and just letting them handle berserker orcs is the answer imho. Shards required: Vengence, Explosive Guard, 34% extra defense health.

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@Zimmermann quote:

Guy's I noticed a couple of you talking about upgrading your ground defenses, if traps are anything like Fire Auras, do not upgrade them its a waste of mana. I honestly cannot comment on traps/fissures/LSA etc but Fire Auras are terrible, my 44k DPS Fire Auras jump up by 4.4k which is almost worthless. 

Haven't tested all the new numbers yet... But traps use to be the highest scaling tower with upgrades (to offset the reality you can't upgrade them all very far).



@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@xArcAngel quote:

EMP's are no longer going to be shown in every high tier map... And if Trendy listens to another thread's idea (and isom seemed interested), we might eventually get "themed" lanes, so even more times we can use ground defenses.

Besides... I'd rather deal with an enemy that TEMPORARILY stops my defense from working (and only when that specific one is alive and makes it to them) then an enemy that flat out destroys the tower I spent all my mana into, or just be forced to never upgrade it...

EMPs are still going to show up on every high tier (CHAOS V) map. They are being removed from Chaos III and Chaos IV, but still present in Chaos V. And that was my thread about changing the lanes, but I didn't take Isom's response as being interested, I took it more as "we're going to do something else instead, not this, but let us know what you think of the change we do make".


That's great that you get to keep your defenses, but the down time on them is huge. Whenever the 1st EMP Orc walks by to 15 seconds after the last one walks by your upgraded defenses are doing zero damage.

Fair enough. And I'll admit the 15 seconds is probably over bearing.

And I honestly hope they do consider your idea though... I think it'd be more interesting than the current plan of specific enemies to specific difficulties. At the very least, I'd like it if different maps had different enemies.

All in all though, I guess I'm just giving them a little more credit than usual because of how much of an improvement I still find the current state to be.

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@xArcAngel quote:
@Zimmermann quote:

Guy's I noticed a couple of you talking about upgrading your ground defenses, if traps are anything like Fire Auras, do not upgrade them its a waste of mana. I honestly cannot comment on traps/fissures/LSA etc but Fire Auras are terrible, my 44k DPS Fire Auras jump up by 4.4k which is almost worthless. 

Haven't tested all the new numbers yet... But traps use to be the highest scaling tower with upgrades (to offset the reality you can't upgrade them all very far).

Upgrading an Explosive Trap (20 DU) from Tier 1 to Tier 5 is a 80% increase in damage for a single trap.

Upgrading an Earthshatter (80 DU) from Tier 1 to Tier 5 is a 150% increase in damage.

After you factor in DU, Explosive Traps get a 20% increase in damage by upgrading to max tier, while Earthshatter gives 150% increase in damage.


Spreading your upgrades evenly is better than fully upgrading a single trap, so lets say you built 4 Explosive Traps vs 1 Eartshatter so they are each using up equal DU.

Fully upgrading the Earthshatter costs 500 green mana (50+100+150+200) - this gives a 150% DPS increase

For 500 green mana you can upgrade 3 traps to Tier 3 and 1 to tier 2 (50+50+50+50+100+100+100) - Every upgrade on Explosive traps is +20% damage to that 1 trap. Since you can have 4x as many traps, each upgrade increases overall damage by only 5%. 7 upgrades at 5% each is a total of +35% damage.


+150% damage vs +35% damage. It's not even close. Upgrading traps is terrible.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

-snip-

RIP... I was afraid of that when I logged in yesterday and saw upgrade rates had changed (and almost all of them way down)... Whoever decided that one did not think at all imo... As if traps in DD2 weren't bad from day 1 lol.

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