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I haven't seen this covered anywhere, but something I have been looking at is extending ranges with the Range Gambit in the Utility section of the Ascension panel, the one that has a 50 point cap in which you need a 3:2 ratio into Defense Damage section to offset the penalty for taking the range gambit.


The success or lack thereof seems to stem from the defenses default range scalar, this largely determines what ratio of Defense Range values relates into actual range.


For example, Skeletal Archer has a default scalar of 2,250 and a range of 2,250.  This means Defense Range translates to a 1:1 ratio in actual range.


Flamethrower has a 6,000 default scalar and a range of 1,500.  This results in a 1:4 ratio to actual range.

Ramstar has 25,000 default scalar and a range of 2,500.  This results in a 1:10 ratio to actual range.


If you you put the maximum 50 points in your tower range gambit, this would extend the range of Skeletal Archer from 2,250 to 3,750 (+1,500), an increase of 67%.  Flamethrower would increase from 1,500 to 1,875 (+375), an increase of 25%.  Ramstar would increase from 2,500 to 2,650 (+150), a whopping increase of 6%.


When you have enough ascension levels that it doesn't really matter where you put points into, or you have one hero for each tower you utilise the choices don't really matter, however, in general I have found where the scalar is quite high, you don't get the same benefit from a capped ranged gambit, the 150 range improvement on the Ramstar isn't really worth the 1,500 defense power loss.  For something like the Archers or other towers where you can extend the range significantly, I think it is a worthwhile trade-off.

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I also feel like the range points should give more range

spending 50 ascension points on range should give a huge increase

not only because you lose def power but also because you need to get level 150 to put 50 points there and reaching level 150 takes very long so you should get high reward

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

I also feel like the range points should give more range

spending 50 ascension points on range should give a huge increase

not only because you lose def power but also because you need to get level 150 to put 50 points there and reaching level 150 takes very long so you should get high reward

you forgot to mention that you also need 75 points into tower dp to make up for the dp loss, so you need 125 points in total and a minimum ascension level of 224


[[29453,users]] where did you get this info about the towers range scalar from? im also intrested in f.e. cannonballs and ballistas.

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@Escapism quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

I also feel like the range points should give more range

spending 50 ascension points on range should give a huge increase

not only because you lose def power but also because you need to get level 150 to put 50 points there and reaching level 150 takes very long so you should get high reward

you forgot to mention that you also need 75 points into tower dp to make up for the dp loss, so you need 125 points in total and a minimum ascension level of 224


vim where did you get this info about the towers range scalar from? im also intrested in f.e. cannonballs and ballistas.


If you remove the relic from the tower and go to the character screen and select the tower, it will give you the default scalar, Cannonball Tower is 2,000 and it's range is 2,000 (can see the default range by placing one down and inspecting it).  You can then easily calculate the defense range/range ratio.  Cannonball Tower is 1:1 so 50 points into range will give you 3,500 range, an increase of 75%.

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Good info here
I did feel pretty robbed after I respecc'd 30 points into Ramster Gambit only to instantly respec out of it xD
That sweet 4% range increase ;) ;)

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@Vim quote:


If you remove the relic from the tower and go to the character screen and select the tower, it will give you the default scalar, Cannonball Tower is 2,000 and it's range is 2,000 (can see the default range by placing one down and inspecting it).  You can then easily calculate the defense range/range ratio.  Cannonball Tower is 1:1 so 50 points into range will give you 3,500 range, an increase of 75%.

Number 1... Thank you for finding that for us. I needed that info so badly now that I'm gonna start back up soon.

Number 2... whaaaaa??? Could you explain that math please lol. No matter how I look at that its making no sense to me? Cannonballs and archers are both 1:1, but cannons get +75% range, and archers get +67%? And if the vector is proportionally equal, why is it 75%? Why is it not 100% or 50%? And if its a vector scalar, why is the HIGHER scalar less range? So confused...

Edit:

Also... Yes, it is VERY silly that they didn't scale the gambit properly, but they may have forgotten the fact that they made all towers scale differently with range... Hopefully they fix it. Imo, all towers should have a consistent % growth now.

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@xArcAngel quote:


@Vim quote:


If you remove the relic from the tower and go to the character screen and select the tower, it will give you the default scalar, Cannonball Tower is 2,000 and it's range is 2,000 (can see the default range by placing one down and inspecting it).  You can then easily calculate the defense range/range ratio.  Cannonball Tower is 1:1 so 50 points into range will give you 3,500 range, an increase of 75%.

Number 1... Thank you for finding that for us. I needed that info so badly now that I'm gonna start back up soon.

Number 2... whaaaaa??? Could you explain that math please lol. No matter how I look at that its making no sense to me? Cannonballs and archers are both 1:1, but cannons get +75% range, and archers get +67%? And if the vector is proportionally equal, why is it 75%? Why is it not 100% or 50%? And if its a vector scalar, why is the HIGHER scalar less range? So confused...

Edit:


A flat increase of 1500 range point to 2000 or 2250 isn't the same. 1500 is 75% of 2000 and 67% of 2250, it's the proportion that changes. But the ratio is still the same for cannons and archers since if you do their real range divided by their range scalar, you'll get 1.

The thing with ramster is that the scalar is so high (25 000) and the real range so little compared to it (2500) that you get a ridiculous proportion (1/10), meaning that to gain 1 real range, you need 10 range stat points.

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@MushroomCake28 quote:

The thing with ramster is that the scalar is so high (25 000) and the real range so little compared to it (2500) that you get a ridiculous proportion (1/10), meaning that to gain 1 real range, you need 10 range stat points.

Probably a typo like with the extra 0 on the pdt crit rate. #plsfix

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@Hinato quote:


@MushroomCake28 quote:

The thing with ramster is that the scalar is so high (25 000) and the real range so little compared to it (2500) that you get a ridiculous proportion (1/10), meaning that to gain 1 real range, you need 10 range stat points.

Probably a typo like with the extra 0 on the pdt crit rate. #plsfix

Actually it is not a typo, it's their math. To gain 30 range on a ramster, you need 300 range stat points. that's because the base range stat is 25000. If you meant that the base range stat might have a typo, meaning it should be 2500, then maybe.

I mean TE did make certain tower scale badly with range to not make them OP and I believe ramster is one of them. Image 4000 range on ramster lol, + the dealdy strike it would be 5600 range. That's OP lol

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@MushroomCake28 quote:


@xArcAngel quote:


@Vim quote:


If you remove the relic from the tower and go to the character screen and select the tower, it will give you the default scalar, Cannonball Tower is 2,000 and it's range is 2,000 (can see the default range by placing one down and inspecting it).  You can then easily calculate the defense range/range ratio.  Cannonball Tower is 1:1 so 50 points into range will give you 3,500 range, an increase of 75%.

Number 1... Thank you for finding that for us. I needed that info so badly now that I'm gonna start back up soon.

Number 2... whaaaaa??? Could you explain that math please lol. No matter how I look at that its making no sense to me? Cannonballs and archers are both 1:1, but cannons get +75% range, and archers get +67%? And if the vector is proportionally equal, why is it 75%? Why is it not 100% or 50%? And if its a vector scalar, why is the HIGHER scalar less range? So confused...

Edit:


A flat increase of 1500 range point to 2000 or 2250 isn't the same. 1500 is 75% of 2000 and 67% of 2250, it's the proportion that changes. But the ratio is still the same for cannons and archers since if you do their real range divided by their range scalar, you'll get 1.

The thing with ramster is that the scalar is so high (25 000) and the real range so little compared to it (2500) that you get a ridiculous proportion (1/10), meaning that to gain 1 real range, you need 10 range stat points.

When I first saw that 25,000 range stat I thought my Ramster would launch into orbit, sadly not to be.  I am hoping that it is a bug and they misplaced a decimal, because the Ramster is vastly inferior to a flamethrower (unless you are sitting there spamming dark command on it) which isn't really doable when you have them all over the map.

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if this helps, I have 50/50 range on my flamethrowers with 40% range shard and I am able to AFK C5. When I say AFK, i upgraded for the first time after wave 3, then no more upgrades... just forgot about mana basically and herp derped the assassins and killed rollers myself.

Got very bored, returned to my flame auras where I actually have to play... at least until i have more ascension levels.

The question I have is, do towers have diminishing returns on points into range? If they do, that will be a pain as I hate maths^^

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@Zimmermann quote:

if this helps, I have 50/50 range on my flamethrowers with 40% range shard and I am able to AFK C5. When I say AFK, i upgraded for the first time after wave 3, then no more upgrades... just forgot about mana basically and herp derped the assassins and killed rollers myself.

Got very bored, returned to my flame auras where I actually have to play... at least until i have more ascension levels.

The question I have is, do towers have diminishing returns on points into range? If they do, that will be a pain as I hate maths^^

Yes, the math is different for every defenses based on their base range stat. Flamethrowers have 6000 base range stat with a default 1500 range, a 4:1 proportion. So with full gambit, you would add 1500 range stat, so you'd be up to 7500. What it really adds to the tower's range will follow the proportion rule 4:1, so you gain 1/4 of 1500 = 375 range. Since I assume yo have the deadly strike shard, you should now have (1500 + 375) x 1.4 = 2625 

Without any gambits and with the deadly strike shard, I have 2100 range which isn't that much of a difference, I can still AFK C5 no problem. For the slight 375 range difference (525 with deadly strike), I do not think the 1500 DP penalty is worth.

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@MushroomCake28 quote:

Actually it is not a typo, it's their math. To gain 30 range on a ramster, you need 300 range stat points. that's because the base range stat is 25000. If you meant that the base range stat might have a typo, meaning it should be 2500, then maybe.

I mean TE did make certain tower scale badly with range to not make them OP and I believe ramster is one of them. Image 4000 range on ramster lol, + the dealdy strike it would be 5600 range. That's OP lol

I meant the 25000 probably is a typo like the 30% defense crit chance of the pdt which should've been 3% from the start. Afaik there is no other tower with such ridiculous scaling on the gambit. I think the ramsters gambit as it is right now oftentimes makes the tower worse instead of better, what obviously should never be the case. Players shouldn't even have to wonder if spending ascension points might make their stuff worse.

If the low range increase of the ramster is really intended they should remove the decrease of defense power from the gambit. The defense power decrease should've been balanced better in any case. Makes no sense that 1 point in gambit adds a different range bonus to different towers but reduces all their defense power by the same amount. E.g. Loose 1500 dpwr get 1000 extra range versus loose 1500 dpwr get 300 extra range doesn't seem to be good balancing?

Likely trendy just thought: Damn that defense range is stronk! Let's just nerf all gambits with reduced defense power, no need to look into every single tower and how that effects it!

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@Hinato quote:


@MushroomCake28 quote:

Actually it is not a typo, it's their math. To gain 30 range on a ramster, you need 300 range stat points. that's because the base range stat is 25000. If you meant that the base range stat might have a typo, meaning it should be 2500, then maybe.

I mean TE did make certain tower scale badly with range to not make them OP and I believe ramster is one of them. Image 4000 range on ramster lol, + the dealdy strike it would be 5600 range. That's OP lol

I meant the 25000 probably is a typo like the 30% defense crit chance of the pdt which should've been 3% from the start. Afaik there is no other tower with such ridiculous scaling on the gambit. I think the ramsters gambit as it is right now oftentimes makes the tower worse instead of better, what obviously should never be the case. Players shouldn't even have to wonder if spending ascension points might make their stuff worse.

If the low range increase of the ramster is really intended they should remove the decrease of defense power from the gambit. The defense power decrease should've been balanced better in any case. Makes no sense that 1 point in gambit adds a different range bonus to different towers but reduces all their defense power by the same amount. E.g. Loose 1500 dpwr get 1000 extra range versus loose 1500 dpwr get 300 extra range doesn't seem to be good balancing?

I agree with Mushy that it can't be a simple decimal point error, because it would give the Ramster a huge range if you increased the scaling by moving the decimal place.


I think the problem is the lack of tooltip information at the ready, they give you the scalar and you can see the range and can test what happens when you increase the range to confirm your math so you can work it out, but it is not instantly obvious what is going on when you look at the ascension panel as the range doesn't directly translate into range, not for all towers.  Perhaps it should convert the values so you see the actual range gain to avoid confusion.


I think things with area of effect, that naturally have a smaller range/area can't really get the same range scaling as something like a single target tower like a cannonball tower, the increased range gives you a significant volume increase.  However, I am not sure why there is as significant a variance between the Flamethrower and the Ramster.

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@Zimmermann quote:

if this helps, I have 50/50 range on my flamethrowers with 40% range shard and I am able to AFK C5. When I say AFK, i upgraded for the first time after wave 3, then no more upgrades... just forgot about mana basically and herp derped the assassins and killed rollers myself.

Got very bored, returned to my flame auras where I actually have to play... at least until i have more ascension levels.

The question I have is, do towers have diminishing returns on points into range? If they do, that will be a pain as I hate maths^^

There is no diminishing returns as far as I have seen, the bonus has looked linear for every tower that I have used them in.  I don't have enough ascension levels to confirm it.  What is the exact range of your Flamethrower with/without the Deadly Strikes at 50/50?


Yeah, I would expect the volume increase for area of effect defenses to make range particularly attractive, if you can get them to scale remotely well.  I think the Flamethrower scaling isn't too bad at 25%.

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Ohhh... I see now. The proportions were just distracting me... So the gambits add 1500 to their range stat, and so thats the proportion that matters.

Thanks for the explination mushroom.

And I never really thought about them misplacing a zero... Regardless if that's really the issue, the gambit 100% weakens the tower, and that should never be the case for something that you're investing your levels in to.

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  • 2 weeks later...


@mordyo quote:

ramsters seems it may be a wrong value in there if its that bad of  a ratio. 

My bet would be 2500 instead of 25000 so 1:1 instead of 1:10

Overall i feel gambit should just give a plain 1% per point

Currently it just feel awkward

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Is there a list of towers that aren't 1:1 in terms of range/scalar ratios? I've seen flamethrowers and ramsters, are there any others?

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@Vim quote:

I haven't seen this covered anywhere, but something I have been looking at is extending ranges with the Range Gambit in the Utility section of the Ascension panel, the one that has a 50 point cap in which you need a 3:2 ratio into Defense Damage section to offset the penalty for taking the range gambit.


The success or lack thereof seems to stem from the defenses default range scalar, this largely determines what ratio of Defense Range values relates into actual range.


For example, Skeletal Archer has a default scalar of 2,250 and a range of 2,250.  This means Defense Range translates to a 1:1 ratio in actual range.


Flamethrower has a 6,000 default scalar and a range of 1,500.  This results in a 1:4 ratio to actual range.

Ramstar has 25,000 default scalar and a range of 2,500.  This results in a 1:10 ratio to actual range.


If you you put the maximum 50 points in your tower range gambit, this would extend the range of Skeletal Archer from 2,250 to 3,750 (+1,500), an increase of 67%.  Flamethrower would increase from 1,500 to 1,875 (+375), an increase of 25%.  Ramstar would increase from 2,500 to 2,650 (+150), a whopping increase of 6%.


When you have enough ascension levels that it doesn't really matter where you put points into, or you have one hero for each tower you utilise the choices don't really matter, however, in general I have found where the scalar is quite high, you don't get the same benefit from a capped ranged gambit, the 150 range improvement on the Ramstar isn't really worth the 1,500 defense power loss.  For something like the Archers or other towers where you can extend the range significantly, I think it is a worthwhile trade-off.

Only range the ramsters by Deadly strikes, not by gambit. the latter is not worth it, and is wasting dmg.

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@calmchaos quote:
@gigazelle quote:

Is there a list of towers that aren't 1:1 in terms of range/scalar ratios? I've seen flamethrowers and ramsters, are there any others?

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/143193/range-tooltip-vs-real-range

  • Flamethrower
  • Training Dummy
  • Flame Aura
  • Boost Aura
  • Ramster
  • World Tree

But, there are no range gambits for training dummies, boost auras and world trees so you really only need to remember the other 3 - flame things and ramsters.

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