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Hom-Sha-Bom

Better Changes To Chaos

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It's good that Trendy is listening to feedback now, but I don't think these Chaos changes are going in the right direction. The end game is to be in Chaos V and get the best loot and shards for all of your heroes, but Chaos V will always have Cyborks in every lane. So Traps, Auras, and Nodes are still going to be kind of useless in Chaos V.

I think a better approach would be to randomly determine which Chaos enemies will spawn in a lane and keep them in that lane for the duration of that defense.

Chaos I

Shield Goblins are introduced, they are designed to counter Projectile towers from the front. They will spawn in half of the lanes.

Chaos II

EMP Orcs are introduced, they are designed to counter Aura, Trap, and Node defenses. When the map starts, RNG determines whether Shield Goblins or EMP Orcs will spawn in each lane. The only guarantee is that EMP Orcs will always spawn in at least 1 lane. There is no guarantee that Shield Goblins will spawn. Wherever Chaos enemies were determined to spawn on Wave 1 is where they will spawn for every wave during this defense. Some lanes will counter projectiles, some lanes will counter ground defenses, and it will be different every time you play the map. You have to be aware of what's coming and you can construct a defensive strategy to counter the enemies.

Chaos III

Geodes are introduced, they are designed to counter projectile towers for all enemies around them. When the map starts every lane rolls RNG to determine what type of special enemies will spawn in it. Every lane will spawn 1 or 2 Chaos enemy types. The only guarantee is that at least 1 lane will always have Geodes. You can get a lane of only Geodes + standard enemies, only Shield Goblins + standard enemies, or Geodes + EMP Orcs + Standard enemies, or any other combination of 1 or 2 chaos enemy types. You will occasionally get a lane that counters projectiles and ground defenses with Geodes + EMP Orcs, but that's OK. One hard lane where you have to play actively to help eliminate the Geodes is a good thing. Plus we do have defenses that can provide a solution to Geode + EMP Orc. We can use Flamethrowers, Nimbus, Ramsters, Fire Auras that are placed outside of EMP Orcs reach.

Chaos IV

Berserker Orcs are introduced, they are designed to get to your defenses fast and take them down. When the map starts every lane rolls to pick 2 Chaos enemy types. The only guarantee is that there will always be at least 1 lane with Berserker Orcs. We need to devise a strategy that can counter any combination of 2 Chaos enemy types.

Chaos V

See Chaos IV above, but add in Dark Assassins. Dark Assassins are guaranteed to spawn. Each lane picks either 2 or 3 Chaos enemy types. 


With these proposed changes, every Chaos enemy can appear in every Chaos tier after they are introduced. None of them have to retreat from battle when we move up a tier. AND every defense type can remain viable in every Chaos tier, we just have to pay attention to where we put them.

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This is similar to what I had in mind.  The problem was not that the mobs existed, but that they spawned in every lane all together.  I would be fine with an implementation like this, or a "Master" tier which includes everything from the previous trials.

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Keep in mind that Chaos V is not our final Chaos tier, BUT with that said, that's a very good point. I really loved Val's Master tier idea of mixing things up. 

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@iamisom quote:

Keep in mind that Chaos V is not our final Chaos tier, BUT with that said, that's a very good point. I really loved Val's Master tier idea of mixing things up. 

I understand this is an attempt to make balancing easier, but you are essentially saying "for this season, you cant use towers XYZ in the end game". By doing that you are harmonizing the play styles, everyone has to go projectiles or traps whatever the end game happens to be that Chaos level. You will still end up with a META where everyone uses the PDT equivalent regardless.

This would also imply that defenses designed for C2 will be far far weaker in power... because C2 doesn't need strong towers. I just see this as legitimizing imbalance rather then balancing. 

Hard countering ground defenses in C5 is no different from the status quo where projectiles are hard countered.

Now to the important part:

Its not often that I agree with Hom-Sha-Bom but his suggestion is top notch. It might create some fishing for easier combo's but ultimately every lane will have a counter. It also means all towers can be used in C5. Though it might result in switching through loads of heroes which would be a drag, but its far better then simply hard countering a load of defenses in end game.

Also add a flamethrower, Ramster etc Counter.

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@iamisom quote:

Keep in mind that Chaos V is not our final Chaos tier, BUT with that said, that's a very good point. I really loved Val's Master tier idea of mixing things up. 

Its great you guys are trying to fix chaos but I agree with Zimmermann, all you would be doing is changing the meta with every new chaos tier with the changes you guys are considering.

I love Hom-Sha-Bom's idea so much I created an account just to beg you guys to consider it! Every map would play out a little different as each lane would have a random combination of enemies we would have to counter. That sounds so fun and much more worthy of the name CHAOS. If you already know what tower combos your going to use while the map is loading, that is not chaos. Maybe higher chaos tiers could eventually allow 3+ special enemies per lane rather than 1-2.

Zimmermann makes a good point about people fishing for an easier combo, but if thats a problem I have an idea I would like to see implemented along with Hom-Sha-Bom's. I like how chaos gives you a random map, but currently you can just skip it if you dont like it, that takes away from the whole "chaos" theme. I think each map you complete on chaos should boost gold and xp by a small amount for the next random map, maybe 5% each time so on the 5th map you would have a 20% bonus built up. The 5th map could also have another bonus like an extra shard. The bonuses would reset after the 5th map is completed or you fail/leave session. This would prevent fishing by rewarding players who embrace the random chaos.

If anyone knows a way of getting Hom-Sha-Bom's idea some traction with the devs that would be great, because it sounds amazing.

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@iamisom quote:

Keep in mind that Chaos V is not our final Chaos tier, BUT with that said, that's a very good point. I really loved Val's Master tier idea of mixing things up. 

I just said Choas V because that's what it is now. In future updates the end game will be Chaos __ (fill in the blank), and if it is designed to have only a specific set of enemies that work together to counter a specific type of defense, then end game players no longer have the opportunity to use that defense.

Maybe the next Update introduces Chaos 6 that adds Nullifying Shaman that creates a "Nullifying Bubble", similar to Geode, except instead of reflecting projectiles, it heals enemies in the bubble and makes them immune to CC.


With the Chaos model that you guys are currently going with, then end game players can no longer use Frostbite Towers or Snaking Sands, and Maw of the Earthdrake & Viper's Fang become just standard walls because they can no longer petrify or bubble enemies so there's no point in building them over a Spiked Blockade.


With what I am suggesting, you just repeat the pattern I laid out above. The "Nullifying Shaman" would be a guaranteed spawn in at least 1 lane, and all lanes would choose a combination of 2 or 3 chaos enemy types. That way all defenses can still be used in Chaos 6. You would just put your Frostbites, Snaking Sands, Maws, or Viper's Fangs in the lanes that did not have Nullifying Shamans.

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I think instead of randomly generating certain lanes... that Chaos VI and above (or whichever Chaos tier ceases to introduce new special enemies) should randomly generate an entire theme instead. For example, one run the Old One's Armies might use an Anti-Projectile strategy, and other times they might use an Anti-Trap strategy, while still others they might choose to use an Anti-Blockade, Anti-Area/Aura, or Anti-Hero strategy. However, I don't think they should ever employ more than one such strategy at a time... it simply limits the player's options too much.

This way early Chaos tiers are teaching players the strategies, and later tiers are simply employing them randomly with higher and higher level enemies.

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@Cantriped quote:

I think instead of randomly generating certain lanes... that Chaos VI and above (or whichever Chaos tier ceases to introduce new special enemies) should randomly generate an entire theme instead. For example, one run the Old One's Armies might use an Anti-Projectile strategy, and other times they might use an Anti-Trap strategy, while still others they might choose to use an Anti-Blockade, Anti-Area/Aura, or Anti-Hero strategy. However, I don't think they should ever employ more than one such strategy at a time... it simply limits the player's options too much.

This way early Chaos tiers are teaching players the strategies, and later tiers are simply employing them randomly with higher and higher level enemies.

Well I'm hoping this is what they are already planning to do with Incursions and/or Onslaught, whenever those get fixed.

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I am also not opposed to the OPs suggestion, except that I do not think a given lane should ever generate special mobs from opposing themes (Cyborks and Geodes for example).

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@Cantriped quote:

I am also not opposed to the OPs suggestion, except that I do not think a given lane should ever generate special mobs from opposing themes (Cyborks and Geodes for example).

I am open to that, but I don't really think it is necessary, as there are solutions to that combo. Geodes & EMP Orcs can be countered with Breath, Spawner, and large radius Aura type of defenses. Hero CC abilities to disable the Geodes are also an option for people who like to DPS.


Flamethrower, Ramster, Obelisk, Slime Pit, Hornet's Nest, Angry Nimbus, Fire Aura can all go through the Geode's shield.

Flamethrower, Ramster, and Obelisk are not disabled by EMP Orcs.

Slime Pit, Hornet's Nest, Angry Nimbus, and Fire Aura can be disabled by EMP Orcs, but you can use smarter placement to get them close enough to do damage but not too close to get disabled.

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I like OPs, but with Cantriped's alteration of each lane rolling a theme.  I would think themes would be easier from a technical standpoint, as each theme could have a pre-made spawn chart as opposed to each lane having to generate a new spawn chart at the start of each map.

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So we would be back to just rerolling maps until we get easy combos like we did with lane resists? That was horrible please dont go back to that

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@stuffymonster quote:

So we would be back to just rerolling maps until we get easy combos like we did with lane resists? That was horrible please dont go back to that

This could be a reason to implement the themed lanes, instead of the random combinations. I can't really think of any lane that would be that effected by a certain theme that rerolling to change it would be better than just dealing with it. You could also make it so that the lanes were split evenly, to prevent rerolling to get all/more of theme X, as opposed to theme Y. Extra lanes could be neutral lanes. 

I'd also like to see [[62751,users]] 's idea added. Even if it wasn't a higher tier of gear. Maybe better drop rates or something? Or even no extra reward and just for the challenge.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@iamisom quote:

Keep in mind that Chaos V is not our final Chaos tier, BUT with that said, that's a very good point. I really loved Val's Master tier idea of mixing things up. 

I understand this is an attempt to make balancing easier, but you are essentially saying "for this season, you cant use towers XYZ in the end game". By doing that you are harmonizing the play styles, everyone has to go projectiles or traps whatever the end game happens to be that Chaos level. You will still end up with a META where everyone uses the PDT equivalent regardless.

This would also imply that defenses designed for C2 will be far far weaker in power... because C2 doesn't need strong towers. I just see this as legitimizing imbalance rather then balancing. 

Hard countering ground defenses in C5 is no different from the status quo where projectiles are hard countered.

Now to the important part:

Its not often that I agree with Hom-Sha-Bom but his suggestion is top notch. It might create some fishing for easier combo's but ultimately every lane will have a counter. It also means all towers can be used in C5. Though it might result in switching through loads of heroes which would be a drag, but its far better then simply hard countering a load of defenses in end game.

Also add a flamethrower, Ramster etc Counter.

I agree.  The problem with a rock/paper/scissors approach means that whatever is the highest difficulty that counters something else will largely dictate what the meta will be with the only guarantee that it is going to cycle.


While people will have to deal with whatever obstacles exist outside the highest difficulty, people will be spending the vast majority of their time at the highest difficulty.


I like the design of all the new chaos mobs, it would really promote versatility if they simply didn't all spawn on every lane.  If you had some intuitive system of knowing which spawn in various lanes you could utilise a wider array of defenses to counter each different lane.  People are unlikely going to use a wide variety of defences if for all intents every lane spawns the same things.

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Great idea by the OP and the others here.  


I completely agree with the fundamental ideas. Especially with themes and not restricting enemies to a specific Chaos level only. Also with the Bonus with the continuation of the maps, which in itself is another way of progression. We wouldn't want it to be too easy or restricting now do we.


My only suggestion would be that Trendy should balance towers in such a way that every hero should have a tower or two that could deal with each Themed combination of enemy spawns. This would also make it so that players do not HAVE TO HAVE X hero or Y hero to beat the content. 


Trendy's goal should be that a combination of towers from any 4 heroes(especially the default ones) should be able to clear every difficulty and map. 


As to how to succeed in that, this thread already has a plethora of amazing suggestions. 

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First off, I'm really happy with the changes they announced today as a quick fix. Yes it will create a meta at the top tier, but not everyone is there yet anyway. This at least makes the game feel playable again until they can implement a bigger change. 

+1 all the way for the themed lanes, it does mean more hero swapping up front, or it could (sometimes) just mean playing with other people means there isn't just one builder and everyone can chip in a little which could be really cool.


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@Allusir quote:

First off, I'm really happy with the changes they announced today as a quick fix. Yes it will create a meta at the top tier, but not everyone is there yet anyway. This at least makes the game feel playable again until they can implement a bigger change. 

+1 all the way for the themed lanes, it does mean more hero swapping up front, or it could (sometimes) just mean playing with other people means there isn't just one builder and everyone can chip in a little which could be really cool.


Kind of like the early days of DD1.


I remember having discussions like: "Who has good cannons? You can cover that lane! Ill take this lane, since i have good traps." Man, those were the days. 

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Can I point out this topic that not only suggested already the same idea of mixing things up with 1 type of enemy per lane in Chaos I and II, 2 in Chaos III and IV and 3 in Chaos V per lane. And having only X + 1 lane (x being the number of players in the party) pressurized by special enemies at the same time, pretty much like before the update (with the +1 though). And it also suggested a UI similar to what is being made for the new hero deck UI so I start to thing that the ideas are not that random.

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@stuffymonster quote:

So we would be back to just rerolling maps until we get easy combos like we did with lane resists? That was horrible please dont go back to that

Not if you create a reward system that makes you have better reward for each consecutive map that you win in " winning streak " (a bit similar to how onslaught worked with 3 waves giving one reward and making things harder/more rewarding - here it would be each map of 5 waves + you change map and get better reward).

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All the current plan will achieve is a different meta for each chaos tier, still only a very specific amount of towers we can use but just different for every chaos tier. Instead of only one working meta we'll have 5 working meta's, one for each chaos tier. It really wont make the game any interesting besides a lot of equipping and unequipping if switching to a different difficulty. Even worse for new players, they'd have leveled their monk and trapstress for chaos 1 knowing that projectile based towers are useless in chaos one. Then they reach chaos 2...and have to completely level projectile based towers to actually complete that. All in all, it sounds like a chore, not like fun.

Then you have the different idea of having specific lanes for specific special mobs, but as stated before, this will just do the exact same as random resistance lanes did. Everyone will reroll their games untill they get the easiest setup, especially on higher difficulties. Impossible to balance as well especially if its random, there will not be a generic difficulty of chaos 5 there will be 4 or 5 different difficulties based on what spawns in what lane, with no effect on what loot drops based on that difficulty, so people will always choose the easiest one. And even if you would make it effect loot drops it would make no sense provided everyone then has to reroll on RNG to get the lanes in such a way that they recieve the best loot drops.

So here's my suggestion: DONT MAKE HARD COUNTERS TO TOWERS.

Instead of letting shield mobs completely block out projectiles, make them stop 80% of the damage, or even better, make their shield have a health of its own so it can be overwhelmed with enough projectile based towers. This will encourage the use of other towers or traps but not completely invalidate a projectile based build if you have good shards/damage.

Instead of letting the cyborgs completely disable traps and auras make them debuff them to 20% damage for X seconds. It'll allow cyborgs to guide other mobs trough traps/auras relatively easy but it wont invalidate having a buttload of extremely high damage fire auras.

Instead of letting the shield geodes reflect everything projectile based make them the same as shields but then AOE. Their shields let trough 20% of the damage and have a health bar of their own, when broken they recharge the shield after X amount of seconds. 


Make the special enemies a counter that will help normal mobs trough otherwise deadly defenses by debuffing these defenses or protecting them from harm to the best of their ability. Reduce their spawn rate slightly across the board and make every enemy spawn in every chaos tier, randomised lanes each wave would actually add something, provided you have built your defense, and you suddenly see that cyborgs are coming trough a certain lane, you start defending this lane particullary because you're using a aura frosty build. Next wave, they come trough a different lane and you go there to defend. Increase difficulty with extra health and damage of the mobs, not on extra special mobs (though for example spiders could always be something extra in high chaos tiers.).

This will allow players to build how they like, play heroes they like and fill up the shortcomings in their defense with DPS heroes they like, without feeling that all of their towers are useless, these towers merely need a bit of hero help when faced with its counter instead of the counters walking straight trough the lane to come knocking on the walls. 



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Yeah this is a good way to look at it. I also think it wasn't that you had all the chaos mobs together as much as they all came out together. Even if they didn't come out together they would usually catch up the the back log at the cade. I like the OP ideas and would even be happy around all of the mobs in a round just broken down by wave and lane. 

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I think a simple fix woudl be to guarantee that not all the enemy types will spawn every lane. So there will be lanes with for example no Shield Goblins or no Cyborks at all and players can adjust their build to that.

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@Deathrow quote:

Trendy's goal should be that a combination of towers from any 4 heroes(especially the default ones) should be able to clear every difficulty and map. 


As to how to succeed in that, this thread already has a plethora of amazing suggestions. 

EV2, Huntress, Monk, and Lavamancer. You have a volcano (Which I'm assuming has a lot smaller range now a days) and PDT to counter anti ground defense lanes. I'd honestly prefer PDT not be able to solo a lane again, and not sure a single volcano can cover the more than, maybe, two side by side lanes. Or more depending on the actual map layout, such as Dragonfall.

Probably an extreme example, but still a valid one.

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