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@tdb quote:

I played for a bit with my friend yesterday.  Chaos 1 maps felt more like chaos 2 and the enemy levels roughly matched too.  They were a bit easier than my solo chaos 2 maps thanks to there being two players dealing with bosses.  We tried a chaos 2 map, and the enemy levels were something like 330 compared to 230-ish on my solo runs.  We almost beat it, only failing in the last wave when a massive amount of enemies gathered on one lane together with a siege roller.  At that point we just decided to call it a day, though I don't doubt we could beat it after some practice.

I'm not sure if it would be viable to progress into chaos 3 in a two-player game though.  I'm not at the chaos 2 gear cap yet, so it largely depends on how high the gear will go.

At the moment I find the game mechanics provide no incentive to play multiplayer games.  The maps I have to complete for the same gear are harder, and the amount of loot is exactly the same.  I play with my friends for social reasons, and because there's usually someone who's lower geared than the others and can benefit from the loot.  Public games with random people are rarely very social though.  At best the map goes smoothly with no one saying anything.  At worst it's a cluster*** and everyone accuses each other of being noobs.  I'll rather play alone if my friends aren't available.

Really? I've been playing 2 player chaos 3 runs and I feel that its easier with 2 players, because of the extra hero. Despite the extra health and damage. Being able to repair at 2 places at the same time is very useful. Any more then 2 just seems to needlessely complicate things, unless playing with people who can properly communicate.

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@Robolord quote:

Really? I've been playing 2 player chaos 3 runs and I feel that its easier with 2 players, because of the extra hero. Despite the extra health and damage. Being able to repair at 2 places at the same time is very useful. Any more then 2 just seems to needlessely complicate things, unless playing with people who can properly communicate.

Maybe we have different strategies.  My friend and I didn't really repair much anything during combat.  It only became relevant during that final wave of the chaos 2 attempt.  Our focus was on killing the dangerous enemies with our heroes before they got to the defenses.  Had we played more we'd likely have iterated different DPS heroes and defense configurations.  We were on Teamspeak the whole time so communication was easy.

Also note that I have no range shard, no blockade health shard, no twin frostbite shard, nor really any interesting defense shards.  I think the blockade boost shard for the boost aura is the only remotely useful non-generic shard I have.  If you have those special shards, they may make your defenses powerful enough that having a second player is helpful rather than detrimental.

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@iamisom quote:

We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

I have two rants to put here on the forums today, and this is one of them (so I won't create another thread for this issue).

We're getting double the health of normal enemies, which means that our weapons feel less effective, our towers feel less effective, and we're not even getting rewarded for it. Builds that can easily hold solo are almost instantly overrun in co-op. Enemy health and damage is doubled but we have to make do with the same amount of DU? How is that fair, like, even remotely?

Remove normal enemy health scaling so our builds can actually hold. Scale co-op by increasing the number of minibosses that appear per wave - that will also make it more rewarding, since they're the ones who drop loot.

Last night I tried a few rounds solo and a few rounds co-op in chaos 4. I beat every round in C4 solo and lost every round playing co-op. Seriously, I'm not touching public matches until it's fixed, and that makes me really sad because I really enjoy playing co-op. However, I don't enjoy playing co-op when inferno potion cheese is the only way to beat C4 in a group.

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Only thing I wanted to emphasize (as I think everyone else did well with the rest) was the unnecessary damage boost mobs get for multiple players... Which is why people are saying melee is unplayable with 4 people. More enemies? Fine. Tougher Enemies? Fine. All combined with hitting 2-3x as hard with what seems to be a flat damage reduction armor system (minus shards)? Not so fine. Even with better rewards I don't really see that as fine.

But that's just my 2 cents...

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So far playing co-op has been a huge penalty outside of incursion maps with special rules like constantly despawning towers in power surge.

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I also have problems with this. Right now I have friends that I want to play with, but if I do, the defenses just can't handle the enemies at all. So right now I have to choose between playing Chaos 3 and maybe getting better gear / progressing.... or I can choose to play with my friends. It is impossible to choose both right now... it's really discouraging because it makes me feel like I can't play with my friends.

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They tuned down MP scaling with this patch today - is it still too much or does it feel better now?

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@gigazelle quote:

They tuned down MP scaling with this patch today - is it still too much or does it feel better now?

Why does it matter? Why implement MP scaling when there is no actual reward for doing it? Even with 25% instead of 35%, It's still a complete waste of time compared to solo play.


Oh god Trendy no, please don't nerf solo play next!

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@Charr Legion quote:

Why does it matter? Why implement MP scaling when there is no actual reward for doing it?

As we mentioned in the patch notes, the scalar is there to ensure the content isn't trivialized in multiplayer. Our long-term goal is to increase the rewards you get per player added to encourage MP games. For the time being, we have reduced the enemy stat scaling per player added (thanks to the feedback in threads like this) until we can make those larger changes.

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@iamisom quote:
@Charr Legion quote:

Why does it matter? Why implement MP scaling when there is no actual reward for doing it?

As we mentioned in the patch notes, the scalar is there to ensure the content isn't trivialized in multiplayer. Our long-term goal is to increase the rewards you get per player added to encourage MP games. For the time being, we have reduced the enemy stat scaling per player added (thanks to the feedback in threads like this) until we can make those larger changes.

I understand that Iamisom. I get that previously MP was just a much easier version of SP; however, if you're going to scale up enemies significantly, I still see no reason to actually play MP. Adding rewards later means that the scaling should have been added later.

Alternatively, scale DU to the number of players. Maybe give each player their own DU pool now. Currently, these changes imply that having 3 extra players in the game will bring enough HERO DPS to counter the 75% increase to enemy health AND damage. The problems with this are 1) Why the increase in damage? It's not as if we have more defenses for them to drudge through. 2) 3 additional heroes are likely not worth the 75% increase when I can do it solo and have no increase. 3) Not factoring in how inconsistent and inconvenient it is to work with random players. People with bad builds, not using green mana, going afk, etc.

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@iamisom quote:

As we mentioned in the patch notes, the scalar is there to ensure the content isn't trivialized in multiplayer. Our long-term goal is to increase the rewards you get per player added to encourage MP games. For the time being, we have reduced the enemy stat scaling per player added (thanks to the feedback in threads like this) until we can make those larger changes.

I understand the reason behind the scalar... I just don't think a basic universal scalar is an effective way to balance MP (even if rewards were adjusted).

Between living longer to use their unnecessarily increased damage against our towers that remained as strong as they were when we were solo, and the fact that hero's can't contribute to the entire map realistically...

It ends up giving us less time to react, while having to suddenly react to even small enemies now that use to get killed before they even got close.

I liked how you guys the adding more special mobs and bosses when there is MP (I'd even be fined with that factor being turned up). And bosses having 2x the HP for a full team is awesome.

All the other mobs having 2x HP? Really its just a hassle... And why do they even need more damage? They already live longer. More time alive = More DPS. At the very least, one or the other please.

If the mobs spawned magically at our walls, they'd be wailing on them for twice as long, at twice the DPS, for 4x the damage. But if they normally loose 50% of their HP reaching your wall solo... Well in a party of 4, they now reach your walls with 150%, meaning they get to live 3x as long, getting them 6x the damage they did when you were solo. And it just rises from there.

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I think the underlying problem with multiplayer scaling is that while you gain more DPSing, traps don't scale.  You don't get more green mana and you don't get more DU.  So you have the exactly the same trap layout at 4 players as you do at 1.  ?It would be nice if you gained extra green mana and DU with more players.

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@Slauter24 quote:

MP scaling is still *** because leeches straight out of campaign join and we are stuck with them

It'd be nice if Trendy added a message when joining a game and you have lower gear then the level needs saying something like "Hey dont be a leecher you are more geared to do ??? level. If you be a d|ck and continue you will not get good gear, [Abort] [Be a D|ck]"

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Scaling felt a lot better after the patch.  I played a bunch of chaos 2 maps with my friend and although they were tougher than my solo runs, we won them.  It's possible our tactics had improved as well.

I agree that a direct multiplier to enemy health and damage doesn't seem like the best solution though.  In particular siege roller rockets become more dangerous, but adding more players doesn't help with survival against them.

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@LJMjollnir quote:


@Slauter24 quote:

MP scaling is still *** because leeches straight out of campaign join and we are stuck with them

It'd be nice if Trendy added a message when joining a game and you have lower gear then the level needs saying something like "Hey dont be a leecher you are more geared to do ??? level. If you be a d|ck and continue you will not get good gear, [Abort] [Be a D|ck]"

They wont they removed ilvl before because people complained they Couldn't leech well

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  1. @Slauter24 quote:They wont they removed ilvl before because people complained they Couldn't leech well

    This patch made leeching mostly useless... but more importantly more annoying for the normal people that want to play, because we get people in the higher level Chaos that have no idea how to play the nor do they even have the gear to survive or be of any use at all.. specially with player scaling how it was.. (i havent tried after todays patch yet but until mob damage buff is removed MP will be harder)..

    If there was  warning when trying to enter a level saying hey i dont think you are ready for this are you sure you want to join ?.. maybe some of these leechers might actually hold off from joining.. tell them where they can get IN GAME.... having to read forums and spread sheets to work out where you need to be is just not user friendly at all... This is part of the reason DD2 cant hold new players they are frustrated.

    Us older vets are really happy Trendy is trying.. we also undertsand they are human and get balance wrong thats why there are so many balance type topics on the forums... I have hope they can get the game to be great and one day they will be able to leave Early Access ;)...

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After the most recent patch I went in with some of my friends (3 total, haven't tried 4 yet) and it seemed much better. We were able to survive, and I actually thought it was nice playing a hard map with them and trying to work out tactics / roles. I didn't feel like I was better of soloing, and that's the important part. Will keep my eye on how things feel, but so far so good!

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Maybe it would be possible to remove  all bonuses to mobs stats, and instead give them anit player dps armor, for exaple multiplying mob dmg taken from player by 0,6^x  for every aditional player in game.

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Just tried several public and private C4 games last night, and the scaling is still pretty bad.  I used the exact same build on all my games - 100% win rate on private matches, and 0% win rate on public matches. Same builds and everything.

I really want to play public, I really do. But I'm not willing to subject myself to loss after loss simply because of the presence of other people. Guess I'll hole back up in my own private matches until Trendy figures things out.

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What if we removed the enemy damage multiplier? How would you feel about that? 

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A couple more thoughts - why does the scaling even exist? Common enemies get buffed health and damage, but we don't get more DU to help offset that? It's just so stupid.

Playing solo, things feel good - enemy damage is a threat if defenses are not maintained for too long, and occasionally lanes get stacked with enemies and need immediate attention. Co-op feels terrible - enemies take too long to die, I die too easily despite being specced in armor and hero health, and defenses don't feel like they can hold on their own without constant babysitting.

I am totally okay with buffing the number of minibosses based on number of players. I'm not okay with common enemy health and damage being buffed like it is right now.

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@iamisom quote:

What if we removed the enemy damage multiplier? How would you feel about that? 

Since I just saw this now (my previous response was an addendum to my last post), I'll respond a bit less like I'm frothing at the bit.

The enemy damage multiplier definitely needs to go. In fact, the enemy health multiplier needs to go too.

Multiplayer scaling needs to happen at the miniboss level. My builds against common enemies should be equally effective between solo and multiplayer. To elaborate, if during solo play we get 3 minibosses on wave 5, I would expect 12 minibosses wave 5 if playing with 4 players. Same health scaling as solo, same damage as solo, but the additional threats of all those enemies would require the active attention and participation of all 4 players in order to win.

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I just don't see any point in buffing damage or health without some kind of incentive to group play.  Group play is harder and you don't get anything out of it that you get in solo. Increase drop rates of good shards and/or gear in group play if you want to buff enemies, otherwise why bother.  Some people may claim it's more of a challenge, but unless people are bored while easily beating c5 they still have plenty of challenges of getting better geared. I think giga has the best idea if you're not going to add any kind of incentive, just add more mini bosses but no dmg or health scaling on anything. 

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