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Multiplayer scaling

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My friend is organizing a LAN party and I've been trying to push DD2 as one game we could play.  He has played previously (a year or so ago) but was disappointed at how the additional high-threat lanes made the game much harder with multiple players.  How are things now?  I recall someone saying that each additional player would double the HP and damage of enemies.  This might be fine on most of the basic maps which are fairly small and mostly have a single core to defend, but on larger maps like bastille it's infeasible for everyone to run around from lane to lane.  Is DD2 a viable LAN game currently or should we look at other options?  Some of OMD:U's recent updates look really promising.

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From what I've heard/read, it is a little painful to play multiplayer right now, although that is more based on opening your games to public. With communication and providing you are both at the same level, should be fine with two or three people. Depends what chaos you guys are grinding haha.

Only one way to find out Emoji_Skeleton.png

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We'd have three players who have played the game previously and one completely new.  The other two old players probably have some legacy gear, but I have no idea how good that is.  Because of the new guy we'd probably do some campaign maps first and then chaos 1.  Everyone would be in the same room so communication before and during the game would be easy.

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We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

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Chaos 3 with 4 people and Chaos 5 gear feels more difficult than Chaos 5 solo.

The issue is that solo, towers can handle lanes on their own, with the exception of special enemies. The player moves from lane to lane handling big threats like bosses and clusters of tough enemies.

In group play, the regular enemies have so much HP that they do not die to towers at all without player help. Which means that every lane requires a player. This is more or less fine until bosses arrive, and suddenly more than one player needs to help that lane, and the previously vacated lane now causes problems. So what's happening is that almost everyone I know and talk to is avoiding group play altogether.

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If I'm not mistaken its 50% HP per player up to two players capping at 100% extra health, yea? on chaos 2 for example carrying my friend for shards I noticed the hp didn't change between 3 and 4 players for some reason. Does damage scale too? I didn't pay attention as to whether the enemy amount scaled up higher. Instead of scaling health so highwhich makes towers less important and player interaction more important wouldn't it be better to only increase mob health by 10/20/30% per extra player and their resistance by 5/10/20% and then mob count per unit type increased by 10/30/50%? Meaning the enemies at max player limit would have only 30% more health, 20% more resistant to damage and have 50% more of each specific enemy type (meaning instead of 10 cyber orcs you get 15). Values were chosen slightly randomly as I didn't crunch any numbers, but should result in a better balance than just massive hp scaling


The flying unit Health for MP might be tuned a bit too high if anything since skyguard towers get wrecked by the flying kobolds; kinda makes them a bit useless unless you gimmick it by putting a blockade so they divebomb that instead.

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@iamisom quote:

We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

Not only is it tuned way too high in all tiers but it's also not providing any actual benefit to players. If you're going to add MP Scaling, there needs to be some actual physical benefit to weigh when deciding between Solo or MP. Diablo 3 (DD2's older brother), provides players with increased drop rates per player in the map. DD2? I think it was almost better before. At th every least give a ton of extra gold and xp per player.

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I just want to chime in here. It isn't just Chaos scaling that is nuts.

In the campaign with 3 players, it's normal or bust after a while. Hard becomes entirely unmanageable, yet is challenging but fun with only two people. That's not good for groups of more than two players.

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@iamisom quote:

We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

2 player scaling is good. 3 players gets tough. 4 players is brutal.

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The scaling is fine if the rewards were better, but going that way would require people to play MP to get better loot faster. So it would be better if you tune it down. 

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@iamisom quote:

We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

It is too high for C3 and above. As it's been said, solo and 2-players is fine, but 3 and 4 make the game brutally difficult, even to the point of making melee characters unusable because you get insta-killed regardless of DR and armor. Same goes for tower scaling with 3-4 players. It is just not enough to deal with the extra difficulty.

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@Charr Legion quote:


@iamisom quote:

We're talking about MP scaling right now. The reports we've received is that it might be tuned TOO high. Is this the case for all Chaos tiers or just certain ones as the user above me said?

Not only is it tuned way too high in all tiers but it's also not providing any actual benefit to players. If you're going to add MP Scaling, there needs to be some actual physical benefit to weigh when deciding between Solo or MP. Diablo 3 (DD2's older brother), provides players with increased drop rates per player in the map. DD2? I think it was almost better before. At th every least give a ton of extra gold and xp per player.

+1

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Heros are very strong in this patch, justifying the Scaling so that leechers can not just leech and afk, only thing is there is no reward for extra players like more XP/gold/medals/shards or item drops, like other games have D3 being one of them.
Meaning we need more incentive to play with others so that the challenge is worth it vs solo.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

Heros are very strong in this patch, justifying the Scaling so that leechers can not just leech and afk, only thing is there is no reward for extra players like more XP/gold/medals/shards or item drops, like other games have D3 being one of them.
Meaning we need more incentive to play with others so that the challenge is worth it vs solo.

Ranged heroes are. Melee heroes can't do anything at all with 3-4 players.

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I've played a lot of 2 player maps and basically the enemies outscaled the defenses by a little compared to solo. Solo builds don't work(which is how it should be). 

If you Concentrate your defenses on the lanes that your not DPSing and each person holds down a lane with minimal defenses its quite easy still. The only difference here is C5.

If your just breaking into C5 you cant afford to set up 2 sets of assassin areas also assassins don't just split up between players. Some times one player gets 5 at the same time and is completely shut down meaning their lane would lose if the other player can't get to it in time.

I personally thought adding 10% more DU per player would be a good solution to make multiplayer more interesting.

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Right now i perfer to play Solo... just because C1 Solo Rollies health 1.5mill, 2 players 4.5mill thats huge.. most of the time im still left to solo the bosses because im carrying a bunch of newbs that need gear to get into C1 themselves...

yeah i get we are getting more heroes to dps.. but we dont get 2-4x the amount of towers ;).. enemy health should not jump that high.. bosses yeah maybe.. but trash mobs shouldnt increase much if any at all.. Trash is for Towers.. bosses for heroes...


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@The Jason Order quote:

Chaos 3 with 4 people and Chaos 5 gear feels more difficult than Chaos 5 solo.

The issue is that solo, towers can handle lanes on their own, with the exception of special enemies. The player moves from lane to lane handling big threats like bosses and clusters of tough enemies.

In group play, the regular enemies have so much HP that they do not die to towers at all without player help. Which means that every lane requires a player. This is more or less fine until bosses arrive, and suddenly more than one player needs to help that lane, and the previously vacated lane now causes problems. So what's happening is that almost everyone I know and talk to is avoiding group play altogether.

I'm quoting this for page 2, because it is the best summary.

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Myself and a friend have farming c5 (2 players) similarly geared, has not been easy to get started... but it's not impossible either, once you get over the initial hurdle of a few totem / medallion upgrades, the quality of life is a lot better.

additional: finally getting a solitary 40% defense range shard after 180 ascension levels (each)... on one of two players helps too.... gg droprate.

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You're all talking about the chaos difficulty tiers, but campaign is also affected. I hope that doesn't get ignored :\

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I played for a bit with my friend yesterday.  Chaos 1 maps felt more like chaos 2 and the enemy levels roughly matched too.  They were a bit easier than my solo chaos 2 maps thanks to there being two players dealing with bosses.  We tried a chaos 2 map, and the enemy levels were something like 330 compared to 230-ish on my solo runs.  We almost beat it, only failing in the last wave when a massive amount of enemies gathered on one lane together with a siege roller.  At that point we just decided to call it a day, though I don't doubt we could beat it after some practice.

I'm not sure if it would be viable to progress into chaos 3 in a two-player game though.  I'm not at the chaos 2 gear cap yet, so it largely depends on how high the gear will go.

At the moment I find the game mechanics provide no incentive to play multiplayer games.  The maps I have to complete for the same gear are harder, and the amount of loot is exactly the same.  I play with my friends for social reasons, and because there's usually someone who's lower geared than the others and can benefit from the loot.  Public games with random people are rarely very social though.  At best the map goes smoothly with no one saying anything.  At worst it's a cluster*** and everyone accuses each other of being noobs.  I'll rather play alone if my friends aren't available.

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@Pegazul quote:

I've played a lot of 2 player maps and basically the enemies outscaled the defenses by a little compared to solo. Solo builds don't work(which is how it should be). 

If you Concentrate your defenses on the lanes that your not DPSing and each person holds down a lane with minimal defenses its quite easy still. The only difference here is C5.

If your just breaking into C5 you cant afford to set up 2 sets of assassin areas also assassins don't just split up between players. Some times one player gets 5 at the same time and is completely shut down meaning their lane would lose if the other player can't get to it in time.

I personally thought adding 10% more DU per player would be a good solution to make multiplayer more interesting.

I like this idea.  I actually think the huge multiplayer scaling could work if there were more rewards for it and maybe something else to balance it.  I also think they should change the scaling to 1 thing like higher dps from mobs, but not higher hp too.. The hp gets ridiculous on 4 player c5. 

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