loot drop rate

@Hover Tower 2000 quote:

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

For me the whole concept of upgrades linked to your gear is dumb. It should be linked to map difficulty imho.

That is equally flawed in my opinion, as it will result in min maxers farming the single map with the best loot. The only viable alternative, is random 750 ipwr style drops on all maps or all maps give the same gear.

But don't get me wrong, the simplicity is a damn slight better then the current system.

@iamisom quote:

@kingoftime2013 quote:

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

I think its either make them less rare OR guarantee 60 upgrade cap on legendaries

no one wants an item with 15 upgrade cap

anyway thanks for replying to our threads and sharing your thoughts

@iamisom quote:

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

I think the problem isn't the rarity, I'm totally fine with it. I've never been this happy when a legendary drops. The point is more that legendaries and myhicals shouldn't have 15 upgrades. Make them start at 30 upgrades minimum, more chance of 45, and some chance to get 60 updates (more than currently). It should be 30% chance for 30 upgrades, 40% chance for 45 upgrades, and 30% chance for 60 upgrades. Getting a legendary with 15 updates is just painful, same for mythical.

I feel that I've done way too many runs to be able to equip ONE character fully with mythicals and legendaries that have the right stats and that are usable (60 upgrades, worst scenario i ll be fine with 45 until I get a 60). (Also, way too many means I'm currently ascension level 265 and still haven't completely geared one hero like I would like to).

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

Yeah, the main issue is that new players don't have any clue about how to improve their gear.

Old loot progression allowed for content skips and lowered the intermediate difficulties utility.

New loot progression forces you to fully equip every hero you use with everything :

Let's say I have 1 hero for DPS and 3 heroes for different towers, they will all have to equip all slots for DPS + every towers. Meaning you have to farm more than half the gear you don't need in order to start dropping the items you want.

Drops based n your highest hero wouldn't help that much, because if you main character isn't using every towers he has (and he probably won't), you still have to farm items you don't need.

Best thing to do would probably be to get drops based on best item in each slot in hero deck. But I think this would allow us to drop upgrades too easely (you would only need 1 of each gear parts to be able to farm next tier of items). I'm not a great fan of the Zimmerman's +-1000 because of the heavy RNG involved.

Finding the good items [(legendary or mytic for shard slots + correct stat 1+2+3, for every tower + gear slot) +1000roll] would be a pain...

@kingoftime2013 quote:

@iamisom quote:

@kingoftime2013 quote:

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

I think its either make them less rare OR guarantee 60 upgrade cap on legendaries

no one wants an item with 15 upgrade cap

anyway thanks for replying to our threads and sharing your thoughts

I can agree with that. Getting a legendary defense item in C5 is like xmas. Then when you look at it and it has less than 60 ups its like getting a kick in the nuts from santa xD. I say make it so Legendary items only roll 45-60 ups. Mythical 30-60. Rest the same

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

That would be nice. Before the patch killed things for me I was farming C4, and wound up taking every hero except my builder out of my deck to actually get some drops.

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

YES!!!!!!

Please!!!!!

@R-Kane quote:

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

YES!!!!!!

Please!!!!!

Gonna keep farming Range shard until we got this patch.... (iPWR 780+ gears on 1 hero and the rest = trash lol )

Ok now i just finsihed a c4 and got capped gear because i 'only' have full mythical set from c3 ... I understand (and totally agree with)  the no carrying policy but, come on, having to farm c4 to be able to farm c4 is just PLAIN DUMB !

@Talis Cat quote:

Ok now i just finsihed a c4 and got capped gear because i 'only' have full mythical set from c3 ... I understand (and totally agree with)  the no carrying policy but, come on, having to farm c4 to be able to farm c4 is just PLAIN DUMB !

Your gear is only capped because you haven't upgraded it.  Once you upgrade it you'll get the next tier of gear.

I like the upgrade gear to get better gear model but you need to explain it cause took me a few days and a trip to the forums to find out what was going on.

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

This would be a very welcome change! One of the current workarounds to the issue is to have only one character equipped in the Hero deck to progress through the loot table, at the cost of ascension exp. Implementing this change would alleviate the problem by allowing players to equip their other heroes without being penalized!

Another suggestion I'd like to make that I feel like would vastly improve the quality of life for players is to include some kind of UI indicator of whether or not an item will increase your loot table over what you already have equipped.

I found myself stuck between Hard and Chaos 1 for some time, finding myself unable to progress because this information is not made inherently obvious or communicated to the player. I was finding powerful, epic, and mythic items that would have raised my loot table, but I was selling them simply because they had lower primary and secondary stats on the surface compared to the level 46 legendaries I had equipped. Intuitively, there's no reason to replace a piece of equipment if the stats are lower than what you already have, and so players will become stuck and frustrated when they are unable to find drops that are higher up on the loot table. The frustration is only compounded when players begin feeling like they aren't being rewarded for time spent, as it does require a decent chunk of time to successfully (or unsuccessfully) complete a map.

The dilemma of whether or not the player should equip a piece of new equipment to raise their loot table is only compounded when the player's gear is level 50 because the player is often forced to choose between two pieces of equipment with varying item qualities that are difficult to directly compare with each other due to the different base stat caps for each item quality. e.g: A powerful glove with 300 on it's secondary stats will result in a higher loot table if equipped than an epic glove with 315 on it's secondary stats, but it's very difficult to intuit this until you've seen a large quantity of similar items and experimented with what will actually raise your loot table.

I did eventually find the information on how to progress my loot table thanks to the community on Reddit and through Youtube content creators, but it's not a conclusion that I was able to arrive at on my own simply based on what is presented to players at the surface level in the Trials update.

Had this information had been privy to players from the beginning, I think it would have saved many players such as myself a great deal of hours spent fruitlessly butting heads with the loot gate - and probably would have alleviated much of the hostility being vented from players in similar positions.

Thanks for reading this long post! I remain optimistic to what kinds of improvements we might see in future patches with the amount of community feedback that has been generated over the past week!

@Faking quote:

@Talis Cat quote:

Ok now i just finsihed a c4 and got capped gear because i 'only' have full mythical set from c3 ... I understand (and totally agree with)  the no carrying policy but, come on, having to farm c4 to be able to farm c4 is just PLAIN DUMB !

Your gear is only capped because you haven't upgraded it.  Once you upgrade it you'll get the next tier of gear.

I like the upgrade gear to get better gear model but you need to explain it cause took me a few days and a trip to the forums to find out what was going on.

it IS maxed costs me 38M

And currently feel i have wasted it. just picking blue and refarming would be the same

EDIT : i also just realized i can't use my phantom phoenix bow because of this maxed ipwr system .. so, DEFINITELY make it based on max gear in inventory.

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

I don't think there is anything wrong with the current system. Progression is smooth, and one of the biggest problems that DD has, especially with the removal of the ipower requirement/server browser in Chaos trials, which is finishing content faster than you should by piggybacking or getting carried in higher level maps.

I think the frustration comes from the vagueness of the system. If you properly explained the system, and how it affects us, most of, or at least my frustration will be abated. 

Even the loot drops are good IMO. We shouldn't be able to finish the hardest content in the game in a week. You should look at the RNG of shards more than anything else. 

edit: Please also take a look see at the other suggestion of the forums where selling our upgraded items give us 50% to 75% of the value back. 

To OP, sorry for being off-topic here. 

@iamisom quote:

@kingoftime2013 quote:

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

I might be alone in this but the Legendary drop rate reduction came a BIT too late. When they provided the passives we now see on shards, that's when they should have been EXTREMELY rare. I'm not saying they should be bumped right now but, if all Legendaries are ever going to be is a small stat bump over Mythicals then their rarity does feel a little off.

@Meioh quote:

@iamisom quote:

@kingoftime2013 quote:

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

I might be alone in this but the Legendary drop rate reduction came a BIT too late. When they provided the passives we now see on shards, that's when they should have been EXTREMELY rare. I'm not saying they should be bumped right now but, if all Legendaries are ever going to be is a small stat bump over Mythicals then their rarity does feel a little off.

I back up this since we no longer need to have 40 leg before getting the best passive but then it's EVEN MORE important to allow high stats leg to drop with gear from the chaos level just before.

And the stats difference should be higher too. Right now leg feels more like bright purple than golden

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

Not understanding it was a big part of a problem.  It shouldn't have taken me two days and tens of experimental games to figure out how to get loot upgrades.  Maybe you've seen my thread on the subject.  There really needs to be some power rating to indicate what kind of loot you can expect to get from each of the difficulties, with helpful tips on how to improve the rating for new players.

However, that's only a part of the problem.  The dropped items always seem to have a little less stats than my current gear, especially if they're not legendary, meaning that there's some overhead associated with upgrades.  Equipping and upgrading incrementally better 15-upgrade items is less efficient than 60-upgrade items.  So I want to get the best gear I can before spending anything on upgrades.  Which means it has to roll (1) mythical or better, (2) correct type, (3) correct stats, (4) at least 45 upgrades.  Multiply all of these together and the chance to get an applicable item is a fraction of a percent.  With only about 20 items dropping per map finding the exact one I need to progress is a hugely arduous task.

The situation could be improved in a few ways:

• Make loot and especially mythic and legendary items more prominent.  This way there would be a better chance per map to find the correct item with the correct stats.
• Make loot smarter.  Prefer the slot where I have the worst item and the stats that are on that item.  This way the occasional mythic and legendary items would have a better chance of being useful.
• Make upgrades cheaper.  If it only took one or two maps to apply 15 upgrade levels (as opposed to six or seven) I would be more inclined to do frequent incremental upgrades.

I've actually had greens drop that were a 100+ stat increase but that's also because I am only currently on c1 and finally pushed into c2. I haven't really upgraded most of my gear because I know it would be changed down the road, plus there is a community project in the forums that have the max role a piece of gear has per chaos level so you know when you have the max role and are getting upgrades. I do agree with you that they do need to increase the drop rate of mythic and legendary...specially the loot chests at the end....I finished  a map yesterday and was so triggered when a GREEN box dropped....I mean I haven't even seen a legendary loot box at the end of a map in like...god...35 ascension levels? Has kinda but a dent in my refunded gold becausethe only legendary upgrades I've been getting are from the blacksmith and relic guy.

Cue the "lets force good loot pieces to drop from every game so I have maxed gear for my difficulty after 5 games and can then either afk farm it or cry on the forums about not having anything to do any more."

I'm actually enjoying the hunt for best in slot items. Keeps me coming back just to min/max. 

Ok so now I got more frustrated and am back to clearly express my main issue with the rarity of purples+legendaries (back to original topic and the second response of iamisom):

I am currently at the chaos 4 ipwr cap but don't seem to be optimized enough to stand a chance in c5. I now farm c4 for more optimal loot (because I can't increase ipwr anymore).

Let's for example say I want a relic, maybe a medallion with crit and speed as off-stats. I'm fine with purple or legendary as long as its upgrade cap is at least 45. In the current system I only get highest ipwr loot. So what are my chances (assuming equal drop rates for item types and stats)?

#1 I want a medallion and playing with abyss lords I got 9 different types of loot drops (1 weapon, 4 armor slots, 4 relic types). I'm looking for medallions only so that should be around a 1/9th chance.

#2 I want crit and speed as substats. That's 1 of three possibilities => 1/3rd chance

#3 I want at least a 45 upgrade cap. That's the upper half of the spectrum => 1/2 chance

=> So any mythical or legendary that drops has approx. a 1/9 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 0.0185 chance of being what I want.

That's not even 2% what is (assuming 3 legendaries/mysticals a run) an average of 18 runs for an upgrade. Even if I also need a totem of similar kind that's still just a 4% chance per drop, leaving me with an average of 9 runs per upgrade. With 15-20min per map that is to rare, after 3-4 maps with no upgrade I just stop playing. 

Also think of the casuals that play maybe 1h a day. As soon as they reach a point where they need to spent 3+ days for a single upgrade they will just quit.

Other notes: Stuff gets worse with weapons and armor because they have even more possibilities on #2. Not to mention wanting an upgrade cap of 60 or legendaries only. Also keep in mind that the assumed 3 mythical/legendary drops are also in favor of the system because I get lots of runs with 1-2 mythicals only. I even completed a map without any legendary or mythical. So probably these numbers are even better than reality.

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

I think thats the perfrct solution. The idea of the system itself isnt bad. Its that you have to gear up sooo many slots and max out upgrade all of them in a system that has absolutely no realistic support to do that via gold. And no, using medals isnt the answer. You gove us a good and hard cap on how fast we can get those and most users will want to buy the new classes first with them. If gems or dlc ever actually went on sale this might be different but if your response to new players is use medals to upgrade, you hard block their gameplay progression either through this loot system or by the rather high pay wall of a game still in early access. 

I love this game. I think you guys are great. I'm not trying to be negative or just talk smack here. This is just my sincere feedback. 

@jbaisden quote:

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

I think thats the perfrct solution. The idea of the system itself isnt bad.

How can this ever be called a "perfect" solution. I guarantee you now that this would lead to a vast majority of players having 1 dump char in the deck that just has as high ipwr as possible.

Having 1 deck slot for a "loot pusher" is as far from perfect as having only 1 hero in the deck. This would solve nothing, just make it a little more comfortable to optimize loot

--> Having 1 hero slot reserved for the max loot dude instead of after building removing all heroes but this guy

@ShadowBerry quote:

Cue the "lets force good loot pieces to drop from every game so I have maxed gear for my difficulty after 5 games and can then either afk farm it or cry on the forums about not having anything to do any more."

I'm actually enjoying the hunt for best in slot items. Keeps me coming back just to min/max. 

I could live with the item drops if upgrades were cheaper.  I'd like to pick up an item and go "ooh, this gives me +20 stats, let's upgrade and put it on."  Instead I go "only +20 stats?  Nah, needs to be at least +100 to be worth the upgrade cost."

In other words: I like frequent upgrades.  I'd rather get a +10 upgrade every five maps than a +100 upgrade every 50 maps, even though the total effort and reward in both cases are the same.

If you get more good loot then you are going to be using even more gold. At least right now the drop chance is enough to go by medals from dailies. 

I do agree that the amount of gold received from doing Chaos is ridiculously low, and should be fixed, but if people want more loot then they need to be prepared to have even less resources to upgrade them. 

True.  If not for the sphere refund, my progress would be limited by gold gains.  So out of my own suggested solutions I like the decreased upgrade costs the best.

@Hinato quote:

@jbaisden quote:

@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

I think thats the perfrct solution. The idea of the system itself isnt bad.

How can this ever be called a "perfect" solution. I guarantee you now that this would lead to a vast majority of players having 1 dump char in the deck that just has as high ipwr as possible.

Having 1 deck slot for a "loot pusher" is as far from perfect as having only 1 hero in the deck. This would solve nothing, just make it a little more comfortable to optimize loot

--> Having 1 hero slot reserved for the max loot dude instead of after building removing all heroes but this guy

Then they need to revamp the gold accrual rate by like 2000%. Seriously, how long will it take a newb to get 1 million gold? And that will upgrade....what...about 3 things? There are 5 gear slots and 4 relic slots. So 36 slots for a whole deck to max out just to get a tiny incremental update. No...thats not fun. Theres no feeling of becoming empowered here. Its a 5th circle of hell grind. If thats really what Trendy wanted, then working as intended. But i some how doubt that. 

I got 6 million gold from the update. I still have 2.4 million left over. But a new lvl 50 xould never, ever progress like us older players have. The one thing a new lvl 50 has going for them is that they likely have a whole pile of shards already by the time they get to Trials.