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with the current drop rate I feel like you could farm 100 maps and not get a single upgrade

99% of the items youll get will have low upgrade cap\1 or 0 shards\wrong stats

and personally I like the progressing feeling in this game and I dont have that right now

I wonder if you agree or think the loot is good right now?

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are you using best gear hero? what mode are you playing? i level from 1-100 in C1 maps just getting shards. i was able to get the range one at lv70.  now i am able to do C3 solo very easy. and i see blue/purple upgrades all the time but most with 15/30 ups.  i use a Al dps/builder with old Nm4 750 gear

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@123theman123 quote:

are you using best gear hero? what mode are you playing? i level from 1-100 in C1 maps just getting shards. i was able to get the range one at lv70.  now i am able to do C3 solo very easy. and i see blue/purple upgrades all the time but most with 15/30 ups.  i use a Al dps/builder with old Nm4 750 gear

im at c4 (highest tier I think)

im not complaining about the "ipwr" of the items

its just too hard to get an item with 2-3 shard spots+ 60 upgrade cap+ the stats you want

if you get an item with only 1-2 of these requirements its garbage (99% of items)

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

its just too hard to get an item with 2-3 shard spots+ 60 upgrade cap+ the stats you want

if you get an item with only 1-2 of these requirements its garbage (99% of items)

mythical + leg. items should always have the max number of shard slots, thats not random from what ive seen (2 for weapons + armor, 3 for relics), blue items have 1 slot less and greens have 0-1 slots.


you really should be only looking at mythical/legendary items anyway, and if they have 60 upgrade levels or not, the main & primary stats on them might not be the ones you're currently looking for, but that doesn't mean its useless, you might be able to use it on another hero since almost all stat combinations have some use for certain builds. The primary/secondary stat combinations on relics arent even completely random anymore, they always come in the same variations of which most can be used for certain builds.

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They have replaced ipwr with "wear the highest stat gear to progress". It took me a long time of having a waller in my deck with just 1 relic before I realized what the problem was. I kept getting random super low stat items.

Utterly stupid that this was supposed to replace ipwr and its even worse. Sure it prevents leaching... but seriously that is the last thing people should worry about, that being; getting upset about other players progression.

If I want a builder with 1 item, I should be allowed it, I should not be punished for not decking him out in both full relics and gear.... so stupid and irritating. 

This one thing has effected all of my progression thus far, as I created multiple heroes simply to min max Ascension, but ended up shooting myself in the foot for ages due to constantly getting way worse gear then I was using. The real kick in the nuts, was I did not think it was me doing something wrong as I am so used to bugs, that I just assumed it was yet another bug with loot dropping, so just continued doing what I was doing. I have now upped a bunch of random crap items and equipped all my highest stat gear to my core 4 deck heroes, simply to fool the game into hopefully dropping better gear.

/rant over.

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@Escapism quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

its just too hard to get an item with 2-3 shard spots+ 60 upgrade cap+ the stats you want

if you get an item with only 1-2 of these requirements its garbage (99% of items)

mythical + leg. items should always have the max number of shard slots, thats not random from what ive seen (2 for weapons + armor, 3 for relics), blue items have 1 slot less and greens have 0-1 slots.


you really should be only looking at mythical/legendary items anyway, and if they have 60 upgrade levels or not, the main & primary stats on them might not be the ones you're currently looking for, but that doesn't mean its useless, you might be able to use it on another hero since almost all stat combinations have some use for certain builds. The primary/secondary stat combinations on relics arent even completely random anymore, they always come in the same variations of which most can be used for certain builds.

I know shard slots are not random, I meant most items you get are white-green

and not all relics are good

the def power relic with secondary def speed gives me the most dps by far but I whenever I get one its green or having 15 upgrade levels

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@Zimmermann quote:

They have replaced ipwr with "wear the highest stat gear to progress". It took me a long time of having a waller in my deck with just 1 relic before I realized what the problem was. I kept getting random super low stat items.

Utterly stupid that this was supposed to replace ipwr and its even worse. Sure it prevents leaching... but seriously that is the last thing people should worry about, that being; getting upset about other players progression.

If I want a builder with 1 item, I should be allowed it, I should not be punished for not decking him out in both full relics and gear.... so stupid and irritating. 

This one thing has effected all of my progression thus far, as I created multiple heroes simply to min max Ascension, but ended up shooting myself in the foot for ages due to constantly getting way worse gear then I was using. The real kick in the nuts, was I did not think it was me doing something wrong as I am so used to bugs, that I just assumed it was yet another bug with loot dropping, so just continued doing what I was doing. I have now upped a bunch of random crap items and equipped all my highest stat gear to my core 4 deck heroes, simply to fool the game into hopefully dropping better gear.

/rant over.

Exactly. I felt the same.


This new system needs to go fast or get a severe revamp. 

It's creating yet again a sense of artificial difficulty on top of the already wtf game we have. Not everyone reads the forums, not everyone is constantly on top of this, so for a "normal" player, they will think the game is either bugged or they're doing something wrong. Both situations will lead to frustration eventually and the game loses players :\.

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@Elyssae quote:

Exactly. I felt the same.


This new system needs to go fast or get a severe revamp. 

It's creating yet again a sense of artificial difficulty on top of the already wtf game we have. Not everyone reads the forums, not everyone is constantly on top of this, so for a "normal" player, they will think the game is either bugged or they're doing something wrong. Both situations will lead to frustration eventually and the game loses players :\.

I agree

instead of scaling with items they can make more map difficulties

like 

chaos 1 - easy

chaos 1 - medium

chaos 1 - hard

chaos 2 - easy

and so on

anyway thats not what my thread is talking about xD

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@kingoftime2013 quote:


@Elyssae quote:

Exactly. I felt the same.


This new system needs to go fast or get a severe revamp. 

It's creating yet again a sense of artificial difficulty on top of the already wtf game we have. Not everyone reads the forums, not everyone is constantly on top of this, so for a "normal" player, they will think the game is either bugged or they're doing something wrong. Both situations will lead to frustration eventually and the game loses players :\.

I agree

instead of scaling with items they can make more map difficulties

like 

chaos 1 - easy

chaos 1 - medium

chaos 1 - hard

chaos 2 - easy

and so on

anyway thats not what my thread is talking about xD

Sorry for the hijack xD

I do believe that the number of loot drops is miserable as well. 

Sure, most stuff could be useless, but we're playing the game for loot. If nothing drops, it's like you're "wasting" time. 

The game is already constantly working against you when it comes to gameplay, now it's as if it's working against you in terms of rewards. Double slap in the face.

Not to mention GOLD. The required amount of gold required could be pushed back by the same volume of drops we used to have + Increase the gold value.

Bit of extra Hijacking :

They should just scale the drops to whichever difficulty you play. A bit like DD1 and IPwr. Chaos 1 = X Range of items ; Chaos 2 = Y Range of items. etc.

That way you can keep progressing through the levels and know when to move on. Instead of not realizing your own hero deck is laughing at you, and tricking you into wasting even more time for no reason whatsoever. 

They literally "fixed" the one thing that was not broken :| 

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I agree with OP.

Currently on chaos 4 I get 0-3 mythicals and 0-1 legendaries per map. On average I get about 0.7 legendaries and 1.6 mythicals a run (including chest).

Just to equip one character I need to fill 5 slots of hero gear and 1-2 slots of relic gear. Most of the time there is only 1 specific stat combination I want for each slot (e.g. hero health + ability power and defense power + def crit + def speed), in addition I want only gear with an upgrade cap of 60. 

What do you think how long should this take? How long does it take now with about 2 items of viable rarity every 15-20min?

The answer is: Way to long.

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@Hinato quote:

I agree with OP.

Currently on chaos 4 I get 0-3 mythicals and 0-1 legendaries per map. On average I get about 0.7 legendaries and 1.6 mythicals a run (including chest).

Just to equip one character I need to fill 5 slots of hero gear and 1-2 slots of relic gear. Most of the time there is only 1 specific stat combination I want for each slot (e.g. hero health + ability power and defense power + def crit + def speed), in addition I want only gear with an upgrade cap of 60. 

What do you think how long should this take? How long does it take now with about 2 items of viable rarity every 15-20min?

The answer is: Way to long.

exactly

and now I dont feel like logging in anymore because I achieve nothing

yeah I achieve some ancension points but several points do nothing as well

and yes I get shards but most are useless right now

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From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

This would solve some of the problems, though I think the underlying issue is that the gear we find for clearing content shouldn't be based around what we're wearing (unless some sort of magic find were ever implemented in the game.)

For me, the gear I find should be related to the challenge presented to me.  In essence, if I'm creative/skilled enough to clear out Chaos V with Campaign Hard gear (exaggerating to make a point :P), the gear I find should be Chaos V gear.  If I buy a new hero and then level them to 50, I expect that running that character through harder tiers would drop the appropriate gear, rather than slight upgrades based on what they're wearing.

The trick is what do you do about leeching, which I honestly don't have an answer for, as it is essentially an inherent part of multiplayer games.  Perhaps maybe a system that rewards loot based around the activities of each player? (This would be strictly multiplayer only of course.)  Maybe something to the effect of the more a player's hero/defenses contribute to the defense, the better their rewards are.  Though this might go against the nature of cooperative gameplay.

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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

Wait. I have to fully gear on all decked heroes?? What is this upgrade? Is it upgrade item that has higher stat than equipped?
What if I only got 1 hero in the deck with fully gear, do I have to make full deck?

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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

That would definitely help newer players and people who don't want to empty out their hero deck every time.

I personally hit nirvana, i have enough trash loot to equip all my builders with c5 cap gear so i always get max drops. So it wont affect me.

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iamisom No, this just creates another problem - what you suggest would cause players to have a "dummy" character and just equip the highest stat gear possible. I believe the ipwr number never fully disappeared, the game still has it in the background or something similar? The idea I propose is this:

Gear should be based on the average 3 pieces of the highest ipwr/stat gear you had in the past game. Just attaching numbers to things. I play a game, it drops 700, 700, 700 and the rest of the gear is 690. The game then takes the average of the 3 highest pieces and makes 700. The next game I play will drop 695 minimum gear then and 705 highest gear. It would create a constantly scaling level to the gear for progression, capping out the gear power to the chaos level. IE chaos level 1 maxes at 100, chaos 2 at 300, chaos 3 at 500, etc etc.

What this does is allow players to keep their current gear but still play games to continue finding better gear without being forced to upgrade for a single stat increase item 

The part below can be ignored, its just a thought.

For chaos 5 players they hit a limit and that's that, they get stuck; unless you'd want unlimited gear scaling to be a thing - if so then: at this point something akin to Chaos+ should be a thing. Where every X ascension levels the mobs get X% harder. 

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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well


@Hinato quote:

I agree with OP.

Currently on chaos 4 I get 0-3 mythicals and 0-1 legendaries per map. On average I get about 0.7 legendaries and 1.6 mythicals a run (including chest).

Just to equip one character I need to fill 5 slots of hero gear and 1-2 slots of relic gear. Most of the time there is only 1 specific stat combination I want for each slot (e.g. hero health + ability power and defense power + def crit + def speed), in addition I want only gear with an upgrade cap of 60. 

What do you think how long should this take? How long does it take now with about 2 items of viable rarity every 15-20min?

The answer is: Way to long.


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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

No it wouldn't is the short answer.

it would do the following:

We would set aside one Deck slot for our "ipwr" hero. This hero would be given all the junk gear with high stats, upped and simply be there for generating better loot.

In addition to that, a hero with the "best armour and weapon" is not nececerly the best builder, maybe he has no relics at all. Also, maybe your Frostbite Tower Hero has no gear, no relics bar a single totem in the Frostbite Tower Slot.

My Suggestion:

Let each new item found roll based on existing items of that type that you already own, so that includes in your deck, in your bags and on your non deck heroes. If this is technically not possible, then sure it would have to be based off the best in your deck.

How it would work:

So if a medallion drops, and you have a 5000 main stat medallion, the newly found medallion would roll  between 4000-6000, meaning 1000+/- of 5000. Likewise if some Gloves drop, it is calculated off the best pair of gloves you own, so on and so forth.

This way, items are tied to your progression, but not forcing silly clunky Hero/Deck setups to fool the system into dropping gear for you. 

Problems with my solution:

You can still fool the system into dropping better gear like you can now by upping trash gear to high stat levels to improve the chances of better loot dropping. I cant think of a solution to this singular problem with this loot system.

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

my thread is about something else

if you didnt understand what I meant I think Hinato explained it very well

Understood. We've made Mythical and Legendary items more rare, which came from our player feedback reports before the update. If we've made them TOO rare, we'll look into it again.

As for the other posts, please keep them coming. This is really helpful.

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Ok some general thoughts on the loot system:

I don't understand why loot has to be dependant on your gear at all. It would make way more sense if the loot just depends on difficulty. If loot needs to depend on your current gear for some reason I don't fully seem to understand I'd like the following change:

The average IPWR of only your currently active hero has influence on the probability of the drops' ipwr not the ipwr itself. That would mean, that at any point in time items with the lowest ipwr of a chaos tier as well as the highest ipwr can drop (introduce a lowest ipwr for each chaos tier). But lower geared characters have a higher chance to get lower ipwr values on their drops, while higher players have a higher chance for high ipwr loot.

If you smooth out the probability curve players might not even realize that their gear has much of an influence on loot. Right now the gears' impact is way to high and therefore to obviously noticeable and demotivating. It's making players look for ways to "abuse" the system. Also it's very demotivating to do higher chaos tiers while getting the same loot. This is a problem that needs to be fixed as well because players need to always be motivated to strive for a higher difficilty (e.g. min ipwr of each chaos tier).

Another problem of the current system is that players never get hyped by loot (because they always only get small and often costly upgrades). Always having a chance to get a massive gear improvement (even if the chance is small) is a huge motivation. Grinding is not motivating enough with only marginal improvements and no chance of getting those powerful drops until you slowly grinded to them.

And on the original topic of this thread: Loot (mythicals+legendaries) is to rare. There are to many variables in the drop system (stat combination, item slot, number of upgrades) to only get 0-3 legendaries+mythicals a run which takes at least 15min and mostly needs a lot of active player contribution. Just now I played 3 maps, got 2 legendaries and 5 mythicals. Of those 7 items only 1 (ofc mythical) has a set of stats I desire and that one has an upgrade cap of 30. I got no shards I need, 2 ascension levels and maybe around 60k gold. All in all that took me about 50min and I stopped playing afterwards. Almost an hour without anything to even slightly motivate me to continue. Only 2 ascencion levels and gold for 1/4 item upgrade... 

And this time I even got "lucky" with maps I enjoy without much rerolling and no stuck siege rollers, random spears on cores or orc ladies running past barriers.

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@Valthejean quote:


@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

This would solve some of the problems, though I think the underlying issue is that the gear we find for clearing content shouldn't be based around what we're wearing (unless some sort of magic find were ever implemented in the game.)

For me, the gear I find should be related to the challenge presented to me.  In essence, if I'm creative/skilled enough to clear out Chaos V with Campaign Hard gear (exaggerating to make a point :P), the gear I find should be Chaos V gear.  If I buy a new hero and then level them to 50, I expect that running that character through harder tiers would drop the appropriate gear, rather than slight upgrades based on what they're wearing.

The trick is what do you do about leeching, which I honestly don't have an answer for, as it is essentially an inherent part of multiplayer games.  Perhaps maybe a system that rewards loot based around the activities of each player? (This would be strictly multiplayer only of course.)  Maybe something to the effect of the more a player's hero/defenses contribute to the defense, the better their rewards are.  Though this might go against the nature of cooperative gameplay.

I agree that loot should not be depend on your gear

about the leeching I have a suggestion: 

you have to win a chaos 1 map solo to unlock chaos 1 multiplayer

and then win chaos 2 map solo to unlock chaos 2 multiplayer etc



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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

For me the whole concept of upgrades linked to your gear is dumb. It should be linked to map difficulty imho.

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@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

I's DEFINITELY needed. I mean i was playing c3 and got a 983 dagger just because i added my Viper builder to replace then without swapping again and again ... All other deck hero were full geared DPS

I would also allow weapon drop for all hero type. Just give higher drop chance for active hero (perhaps not other hero decked ...) in fact it would be iamwesome to CHOOSE which weapon type to drop lol.

But that's asking for too much ...

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@Hover Tower 2000 quote:


@iamisom quote:

From what I've read about loot progression, the core issue is that players do not enjoy or don't understand that they need to equip gear on all decked heroes in order to find upgrades. Is this correct? If we changed this to only drop based on your highest hero, do you think that would solve the frustration you're experiencing?

For me the whole concept of upgrades linked to your gear is dumb. It should be linked to map difficulty imho.

The problem with linking drop quality solely to map difficulty is that you'll get fewer upgrades as you near the edge between two difficulties. For example if a difficulty gives gear in the 4000-6000 range, then as your gear approaches a 6000 average, most of the drops will be terrible in comparison to your current gear.

This can be mitigated somewhat if there's enough overlap between difficulties, but it will always result in a period of slowed progression as a player starts looking to advance to the next difficulty due to not getting upgrades very often in the current difficulty and/or not quite being able to handle the next difficulty. (Assuming there are caps on what can drop on a given difficulty under the current system, this might still be a problem, but at least the current system should allow for concentrating drops at just below that cap rather than spread out over a huge range of which only a small percentage is comparable to what you have.)

Basing gear stats on difficulty also encourages leeching (as others have noted).

Basically, the current solution and the (most obvious?) alternative both have downsides.

Perhaps basing gear drops on equipped gear (ignoring empty gear slots altogether) could help with the issue of not wanting/needing some pieces of gear without requiring too much effort on Trendy's part. I'm sure there's some way to game such a system, but it would probably help without causing any worse problems.

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