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PDT's current state of the game


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This is from my reddit thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/dungeondefenders/comments/5xdgw2/pdts_and_current_state_of_game/


So i was just thinking to myself about the current state of the game and a few points came to mind, mainly about pdts and there current state.

So Why do PDTs feel good and why we are using them, Yes they are overtuned with crit and yes we arent using them for the poison but why do they feel so good?

Because they are a tower yes a TOWER and they are doing damage in what currently in my eyes is a dps based game and they are essentially just being used for a projectile that does upfront damage and it is simple and effective something that was abundant in dd1 and was the backbone of the game , but should they be nerfed or should other towers be brought up to there level.

After thinking about it i believe that other towers should be brought up to this level. the towers should deal with the main amount of trash and we should worry about bosses and big mobs that they cant deal with.

We shouldnt be expected to deal with every mob on the map this is and in my eyes should be a Tower based game and currently, sadly it just doesnt work that way.


TL;DR

So long story short PDTs are a simple projectile tower that feels good

Towers should do the bulk of work

Mobs should die to well made defenses and not be crashing at walls until a hero arrives

We as heroes should only have to focus on bosses/ hard mobs

But thats just my experience let me know what you guys feel

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Agreed. Compare DD2 to DD1 and what is missing?

Towers that can actually hold the line. 

I agree that they should be dealing with the trash while you deal with bigger enemies. Towers shouldn't be dealing with EVERYTHING in the game, but they sure as hell shouldn't be unable to deal with much either. And y'know what? Sure you could be lazy and just sit back while your towers do everything, but you can get the waves done a damn sight faster if you're running out as DPS.

People say this is a Tower Defense game, but it's meant to be a hybrid. The problem is that they keep shirking on the Tower Defense, only caring about DPS.

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I'll say what i said on reddit.  
DD2 Should be a tower defense game with hero support, not a hero game with tower support.   

Towers feel to weak, and heroes feel to mandatory.   

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No, definitely no, whats the fun of just moving when a boss arrive? It's more annoying than just afk and wait until everything die.

Heroes MUST HAVE something to do in the middle time, doesn't matter if it is repairing walls or aoe stunning, that literally where the fun comes from.

The game is in the right direction, we just need some nerfs in OP towers/abilities and a mob to counter flamethrowers/nimbus/etc.

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@Davidmochi quote:

No, definitely no, whats the fun of just moving when a boss arrive? It's more annoying than just afk and wait until everything die.

Heroes MUST HAVE something to do in the middle time, doesn't matter if it is repairing walls or aoe stunning, that literally where the fun comes from.

The game is in the right direction, we just need some nerfs in OP towers/abilities and a mob to counter flamethrowers/nimbus/etc.

Yes, heroes MUST have something to do: Because this is a hybrid game. At least it's MEANT to be a hybrid game. The problem is that towers currently feel like crap, bar a few exceptions. I agree that being able to AFK farm is bad, but the way they've gone about that by allowing a wave to make almost every tower worthless with ease is BAD. Very bad. I'm not saying towers don't need counters, but what we have no doesn't feel like the right way to go with the way it's been implimented. That's not to say that these new enemies are bad ideas, persay, but they screw things up far too much together.

Towers NEED to not suck. Heroes NEED to not suck. DD2 simply isn't there.

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@Davidmochi quote:

No, definitely no, whats the fun of just moving when a boss arrive? It's more annoying than just afk and wait until everything die.

Heroes MUST HAVE something to do in the middle time, doesn't matter if it is repairing walls or aoe stunning, that literally where the fun comes from.

The game is in the right direction, we just need some nerfs in OP towers/abilities and a mob to counter flamethrowers/nimbus/etc.

You are completely off track... Fun is being able to succeed, some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels, some people enjoy afking ;)... most people like receiving new things ;)

Firstly the time it takes to beat a wave is way too long.. reduce the number of trash mobs.. lets towers handle those..  Bosses take reduced damage from towers

Secondly with less trash running around that is able to be handled by towers you can then add more boss mobs which actually gives the player something to do.. this however needs to be limited per player.. if there is 1 player 1 boss mob at a time end wave yeah maybe 2 at a time.. more players more bosses...

This makes the game much more active to play.. quicker rounds also means less time wasting gambling for shards (slightly more bearable... tho there are better options, Chaos currencys or gambling 3-5 shards ect..).. Less time also gives players that awesome feeling when receiving loots more often ;) (ie more funz!!!)

Less trash on the battlefield makes it much easier to see what is happening and where you need to be in the action, it also helps performance for the actual game to..

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@LJMjollnir quote:


@Davidmochi quote:

No, definitely no, whats the fun of just moving when a boss arrive? It's more annoying than just afk and wait until everything die.

Heroes MUST HAVE something to do in the middle time, doesn't matter if it is repairing walls or aoe stunning, that literally where the fun comes from.

The game is in the right direction, we just need some nerfs in OP towers/abilities and a mob to counter flamethrowers/nimbus/etc.

You are completely off track... Fun is being able to succeed, some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels, some people enjoy afking ;)... most people like receiving new things ;)

Firstly the time it takes to beat a wave is way too long.. reduce the number of trash mobs.. lets towers handle those..  Bosses take reduced damage from towers

Secondly with less trash running around that is able to be handled by towers you can then add more boss mobs which actually gives the player something to do.. this however needs to be limited per player.. if there is 1 player 1 boss mob at a time end wave yeah maybe 2 at a time.. more players more bosses...

This makes the game much more active to play.. quicker rounds also means less time wasting gambling for shards (slightly more bearable... tho there are better options, Chaos currencys or gambling 3-5 shards ect..).. Less time also gives players that awesome feeling when receiving loots more often ;) (ie more funz!!!)

Less trash on the battlefield makes it much easier to see what is happening and where you need to be in the action, it also helps performance for the actual game to..


Fun is subjective. You may have fun when winning and obtaining stuff, but I find it with challenge and don't like to be rewarded when I did nothing to get it.

There are a lot of flaws in this update, but compared to the previous state of the game, (PDT spam, 0 difficulty and frustrating Rollers) I can see a huge improvement.

Game is challenging and involves the player. Just need some balance for towers (especially range), improve loot drop location and bug fix. Also, Ascension can be reworked a little but nothing dramatic.

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@LJMjollnir some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels
Im pretty sure this covers you ;)...
Yes its subjective.. but noone(except maybe a few insane people) like to constantly lose or waste time for no reward..

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@LJMjollnir You are completely off track... Fun is being able to succeed, some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels, some people enjoy afking ;)... most people like receiving new things ;)

Correction. Losing is Fun.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/Fun

The problem is that right now, in DD2, losing isn't fun at all.  Yes, we want to win maps, but in order for that to be meaningful we need to have heart-felt losses. Not "crush you die now" but "oh god oh god ohgodohgodohgod we're about to lose, whew we made it. Now for the next wave..."

And we don't have that.

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@Tyroki quote:



Yes, heroes MUST have something to do: Because this is a hybrid game. At least it's MEANT to be a hybrid game. The problem is that towers currently feel like crap, bar a few exceptions. I agree that being able to AFK farm is bad, but the way they've gone about that by allowing a wave to make almost every tower worthless with ease is BAD. Very bad. I'm not saying towers don't need counters, but what we have no doesn't feel like the right way to go with the way it's been implimented. That's not to say that these new enemies are bad ideas, persay, but they screw things up far too much together.

Towers NEED to not suck. Heroes NEED to not suck. DD2 simply isn't there.

No, 100% no, towers are fine, we just need to make flamethrowers a-like countered so they are not "op", that would give balance, your towers would not be as strong as before trails, but it would be balanced, and as we have seen before trendy have a bad way to balancing stuff by making everything stronger, as a result we had the pdt non-sense for months, maybe the answer is making everything weaker but not useless (like most of the towers are right now).

About new mobs they are just fine, they make me move my hero and actually play the game, maybe give mobs a weakness might help in c1-c3, but if not done the right way it would make the game easy again(the only exception here would be assassins, but I thing is too soon to make any final assumption with them yet), so yes, game is in the right direction.



@LJMjollnir quote:



You are completely off track... Fun is being able to succeed, some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels, some people enjoy afking ;)... most people like receiving new things ;)

Firstly the time it takes to beat a wave is way too long.. reduce the number of trash mobs.. lets towers handle those..  Bosses take reduced damage from towers

Secondly with less trash running around that is able to be handled by towers you can then add more boss mobs which actually gives the player something to do.. this however needs to be limited per player.. if there is 1 player 1 boss mob at a time end wave yeah maybe 2 at a time.. more players more bosses...

This makes the game much more active to play.. quicker rounds also means less time wasting gambling for shards (slightly more bearable... tho there are better options, Chaos currencys or gambling 3-5 shards ect..).. Less time also gives players that awesome feeling when receiving loots more often ;) (ie more funz!!!)

Less trash on the battlefield makes it much easier to see what is happening and where you need to be in the action, it also helps performance for the actual game to..

Once again, no. the reason why I lost most of my C4 is because of trash mobs, removing them from game would make it too easy, specially if they get weakener by some towers (ex: geos takes more damage from traps).

Not all towers combinations are not supposed to be equal, a double wall plus one flamethowers build will never have the same the same offensive as a one wall plus 2 flamethrowers, and the only reason why we cant experiment others builds is because some towers don't have counter, which makes them "op"(a clear example would be sand traps, even with cyborgs and sieg they are still useful).

And bosses are not a thereat at all, even sieg rollers are a piece of cake if you use Gw or Drayad (can't talk about c5, I'm only in c4 yet), more bosses are not the answer.

Loot is not hard at all to acquire, you just have to have the your deck full with fully geared characters, if you have one dps and 3 other with nothing but a medallion, the loot is reduced (why trendy never explained it for us? I have no idea) and don't be afraid of using blues and purples, they actually help you now.

I only agree with you in the shard part, but this is not the subject in this post.


@NeedtoDie quote:




Fun is subjective. You may have fun when winning and obtaining stuff, but I find it with challenge and don't like to be rewarded when I did nothing to get it.

There are a lot of flaws in this update, but compared to the previous state of the game, (PDT spam, 0 difficulty and frustrating Rollers) I can see a huge improvement.

Game is challenging and involves the player. Just need some balance for towers (especially range), improve loot drop location and bug fix. Also, Ascension can be reworked a little but nothing dramatic.

Yes, thank you, its exactly what I'm trying to say, this update is far from perfect, but It still in the right way, I'm having a lot of fun losing C4, because I know the reason why I lost was I'm not playing well enough (and the fact that range shard are hard to get), nerfing mobs is bad, I really don't wanna go back to the PlacePdts-GoToSleep-WakeupWithPerfectGear non-sense we had in ons for months.


@Draco18s quote:

Correction. Losing is Fun.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/Fun

The problem is that right now, in DD2, losing isn't fun at all.  Yes, we want to win maps, but in order for that to be meaningful we need to have heart-felt losses. Not "crush you die now" but "oh god oh god ohgodohgodohgod we're about to lose, whew we made it. Now for the next wave..."

And we don't have that.

I'll be honest, you have a good point here, but can you think of any way to achieve this without nerfing every mob in the game?

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@Davidmochi quote:

No, definitely no, whats the fun of just moving when a boss arrive? It's more annoying than just afk and wait until everything die.

Heroes MUST HAVE something to do in the middle time, doesn't matter if it is repairing walls or aoe stunning, that literally where the fun comes from.

The game is in the right direction, we just need some nerfs in OP towers/abilities and a mob to counter flamethrowers/nimbus/etc.

Its meant (or at least it WAS) to be a tower defense game FIRST and an action game second.

During the first DD, you had to move due to Dark Elfs and Ogres. Otherwise, you could mow down waves of enemies to make it go faster.
Regardless, your towers did the bulk of the work and you supported. That's what made DD1 so different and popular. People came up with different builds all the time back then, and sure, there were "meta" builds but I never felt I -had- to buy XYZ hero to succeed, I just needed to adapt the TOWERS, not the hero.

On paper, the game seems to be in the right direction, the implementation however, feels like the devs have no god damn clue of what they're doing or want with the game anymore. For me, this patch, is the opposite of fun. IT's an active seeking missile directed at any possibility of Fun I might have in the game.

And from what I've seen either in the forums or reddit, I'm not alone here, and that is dangerous.

As others mentioned, the "Early access" excuse just went up in flames with this patch. They either decide wtf they want, or I doubt people will give them another chance. I certainly will not if no further communication is done that corrects the stupidity of this patch.

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@Elyssae quote:


Its meant (or at least it WAS) to be a tower defense game FIRST and an action game second.

During the first DD, you had to move due to Dark Elfs and Ogres. Otherwise, you could mow down waves of enemies to make it go faster.
Regardless, your towers did the bulk of the work and you supported. That's what made DD1 so different and popular. People came up with different builds all the time back then, and sure, there were "meta" builds but I never felt I -had- to buy XYZ hero to succeed, I just needed to adapt the TOWERS, not the hero.

On paper, the game seems to be in the right direction, the implementation however, feels like the devs have no god damn clue of what they're doing or want with the game anymore. For me, this patch, is the opposite of fun. IT's an active seeking missile directed at any possibility of Fun I might have in the game.

And from what I've seen either in the forums or reddit, I'm not alone here, and that is dangerous.

As others mentioned, the "Early access" excuse just went up in flames with this patch. They either decide wtf they want, or I doubt people will give them another chance. I certainly will not if no further communication is done that corrects the stupidity of this patch.

DD1 is FAR from a perfect game and I really don't get why people talks about it like it is super perfect and trendy should never given up on it, I can say the same complain as in dd2 (before trails), which is "only moving when a boss or a mob arrives and afk the rest of the time is boring"

Dungeon defenders 2 is a ACTION tower defense, only moving when a boss or mob arrive and killing them with no problems its not action, its boring. 

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@Davidmochi quote:


@Elyssae quote:


Its meant (or at least it WAS) to be a tower defense game FIRST and an action game second.

During the first DD, you had to move due to Dark Elfs and Ogres. Otherwise, you could mow down waves of enemies to make it go faster.
Regardless, your towers did the bulk of the work and you supported. That's what made DD1 so different and popular. People came up with different builds all the time back then, and sure, there were "meta" builds but I never felt I -had- to buy XYZ hero to succeed, I just needed to adapt the TOWERS, not the hero.

On paper, the game seems to be in the right direction, the implementation however, feels like the devs have no god damn clue of what they're doing or want with the game anymore. For me, this patch, is the opposite of fun. IT's an active seeking missile directed at any possibility of Fun I might have in the game.

And from what I've seen either in the forums or reddit, I'm not alone here, and that is dangerous.

As others mentioned, the "Early access" excuse just went up in flames with this patch. They either decide wtf they want, or I doubt people will give them another chance. I certainly will not if no further communication is done that corrects the stupidity of this patch.

DD1 is FAR from a perfect game and I really don't get why people talks about it like it is super perfect and trendy should never given up on it, I can say the same complain as in dd2 (before trails), which is "only moving when a boss or a mob arrives and afk the rest of the time is boring"

Dungeon defenders 2 is a ACTION tower defense, only moving when a boss or mob arrive and killing them with no problems its not action, its boring. 

OFc DD1 is far from perfect.

The thing is, it was also a lot funner. And different. Right now the game is a mess and towers are only there to block shiat or if you find a way to cheese a specific defense to actually do something.

I've just finished farming Chaos 3, 4 runs, it's never dropping anything good at all. All heroes with lvl 50 gear and lvl 50 themselves, yet the drops are lvl46. 

All equipped gear is maxed out and sharded (maxed aswell) .

Edit : Seems the "practice" mode caps items at lvl46. yeay. This force feeding us of one mode to play is just ridiculous. IT's either their way or the highway. Sigh.

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@Squishydew quote:

I'll say what i said on reddit.  
DD2 Should be a tower defense game with hero support, not a hero game with tower support.   

Towers feel to weak, and heroes feel to mandatory.   

Try Angry Nimbus, Weapon Manufacturer, Flamethrowers, Earthshatters, Ramsters, Flame auras  or PDT´s (still!) Nothing weak about those. The first two are actually very much OP.

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Squire Walls - World Tree - Nimbus - Flamethrowers

C3 Throne Room Solo donesquire_small.png

Looked like this , was a bit running around to repair and dps boss mobs , but worked

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@Davidmochi quote:


@Tyroki quote:



Yes, heroes MUST have something to do: Because this is a hybrid game. At least it's MEANT to be a hybrid game. The problem is that towers currently feel like crap, bar a few exceptions. I agree that being able to AFK farm is bad, but the way they've gone about that by allowing a wave to make almost every tower worthless with ease is BAD. Very bad. I'm not saying towers don't need counters, but what we have no doesn't feel like the right way to go with the way it's been implimented. That's not to say that these new enemies are bad ideas, persay, but they screw things up far too much together.

Towers NEED to not suck. Heroes NEED to not suck. DD2 simply isn't there.

No, 100% no, towers are fine, we just need to make flamethrowers a-like countered so they are not "op", that would give balance, your towers would not be as strong as before trails, but it would be balanced, and as we have seen before trendy have a bad way to balancing stuff by making everything stronger, as a result we had the pdt non-sense for months, maybe the answer is making everything weaker but not useless (like most of the towers are right now).

About new mobs they are just fine, they make me move my hero and actually play the game, maybe give mobs a weakness might help in c1-c3, but if not done the right way it would make the game easy again(the only exception here would be assassins, but I thing is too soon to make any final assumption with them yet), so yes, game is in the right direction.



@LJMjollnir quote:



You are completely off track... Fun is being able to succeed, some people have fun trying to work out different tactics to beat hard levels, some people enjoy afking ;)... most people like receiving new things ;)

Firstly the time it takes to beat a wave is way too long.. reduce the number of trash mobs.. lets towers handle those..  Bosses take reduced damage from towers

Secondly with less trash running around that is able to be handled by towers you can then add more boss mobs which actually gives the player something to do.. this however needs to be limited per player.. if there is 1 player 1 boss mob at a time end wave yeah maybe 2 at a time.. more players more bosses...

This makes the game much more active to play.. quicker rounds also means less time wasting gambling for shards (slightly more bearable... tho there are better options, Chaos currencys or gambling 3-5 shards ect..).. Less time also gives players that awesome feeling when receiving loots more often ;) (ie more funz!!!)

Less trash on the battlefield makes it much easier to see what is happening and where you need to be in the action, it also helps performance for the actual game to..

Once again, no. the reason why I lost most of my C4 is because of trash mobs, removing them from game would make it too easy, specially if they get weakener by some towers (ex: geos takes more damage from traps).

Not all towers combinations are not supposed to be equal, a double wall plus one flamethowers build will never have the same the same offensive as a one wall plus 2 flamethrowers, and the only reason why we cant experiment others builds is because some towers don't have counter, which makes them "op"(a clear example would be sand traps, even with cyborgs and sieg they are still useful).

And bosses are not a thereat at all, even sieg rollers are a piece of cake if you use Gw or Drayad (can't talk about c5, I'm only in c4 yet), more bosses are not the answer.

Loot is not hard at all to acquire, you just have to have the your deck full with fully geared characters, if you have one dps and 3 other with nothing but a medallion, the loot is reduced (why trendy never explained it for us? I have no idea) and don't be afraid of using blues and purples, they actually help you now.

I only agree with you in the shard part, but this is not the subject in this post.


@NeedtoDie quote:




Fun is subjective. You may have fun when winning and obtaining stuff, but I find it with challenge and don't like to be rewarded when I did nothing to get it.

There are a lot of flaws in this update, but compared to the previous state of the game, (PDT spam, 0 difficulty and frustrating Rollers) I can see a huge improvement.

Game is challenging and involves the player. Just need some balance for towers (especially range), improve loot drop location and bug fix. Also, Ascension can be reworked a little but nothing dramatic.

Yes, thank you, its exactly what I'm trying to say, this update is far from perfect, but It still in the right way, I'm having a lot of fun losing C4, because I know the reason why I lost was I'm not playing well enough (and the fact that range shard are hard to get), nerfing mobs is bad, I really don't wanna go back to the PlacePdts-GoToSleep-WakeupWithPerfectGear non-sense we had in ons for months.


@Draco18s quote:

Correction. Losing is Fun.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/Fun

The problem is that right now, in DD2, losing isn't fun at all.  Yes, we want to win maps, but in order for that to be meaningful we need to have heart-felt losses. Not "crush you die now" but "oh god oh god ohgodohgodohgod we're about to lose, whew we made it. Now for the next wave..."

And we don't have that.

I'll be honest, you have a good point here, but can you think of any way to achieve this without nerfing every mob in the game?

The game is in the right direction but your idea of making all towers useless? That's a horrible idea. This is a hybrid Tower Defense game. You can't have a tower Defense game without the towers....

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If your meaning of fun is to win games afking, play low difficulties you'll win all The time. If you want to be rewarded you're going to have to give a little effort :) 

No one is telling you to play higher difficulties. 

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