Jump to content

Recommended Posts

More placative hand-waving about the very substantial and fundamental problems that the most dedicated and perceptive parts of the playerbase have, while at the same time the dev logs are full of so much self-congratulation and unbridled 'love' for their updates; I have often wondered what planet Trendy are on.

So much of this update is rushed, poorly-planned and poorly executed (what page in the game dev manual is having half of the ascension skills max out at /999?), worsening problems that the community's been complaining about for months and even intensifying them, so why shouldn't there be flaming involved? Especially given the amount of patience and tolerance that the players actually give the game, despite being endless months in 'alpha' with *EVEN MORE* paid cosmetics and premium characters.

The complaints are justified. A lot of the flaming is also justified. They do not deserve obeisance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the biggest problem people are running into is that ascension levels are meant to play a significant role in your effectiveness, as is finding the right shards for your towers.  I think the devs wanted to change the way people could leech and pretty much get end game gear like you could do with the old NM4 system.  The game should be a lot more about the journey than the destination.


I think having converted NM4 loot ruined a lot of people's appreciation for the way the system is meant to work.  Having the base stats of effectively C4/C5 level loot allows you to brute force through the game and take short cuts.  People are skipping quickly through C1-3 and they don't have the ascension level and probably the shards to tackle the harder content.


I was in the same boat and thought wtf is going on... so then I parked my converted NM4 gear on alts (don't trust myself not selling things by accident) and equipped lesser gear and notice the upgrades were gradual, based on what you were using and capped based on the difficulty of the content.  So I was slowly getting more exp, getting smaller upgrades and I liked that kind of progression, even if you need hundreds or thousands of ascension levels to make a significant difference at C4/C5, the levels are noticeable with gear you should normally be getting.


I think the biggest mistake was not resetting the gear, I know a lot of people have worked hard at abusing OP abilities to get their NM4 gear.  I am not sure what people wanted.  You wanted to be able to trivially get the ascension levels, all the shards and maxed out gear from C5?  Then what?  The game would be over.  I think a big problem the game has had is people reach a point they can't go any further or there is nothing else to work towards and they stop playing.


I think the incremental nature of Trials is a much better system and it gives you things to work towards and your gear progression is gradual.  I think people should take some characters and give it gear from campaign difficulty and work them up and see if they enjoy the experience more, the old NM4 gear allows you to trivialise a lot of the content but you are stuck with a much larger bottleneck because you don't have the ascension levels to brute force the higher difficulty content.


I think if I started playing the game now and not back when it first launched, my initial experience would have been a lot better than it was, but I appreciate what they are working towards.


That being said, there are still some problems, default ranges are far too short, it would be better to increase the base and reduce the effectiveness of shards/ascension level range modifiers so the early experience isn't as traumatic.


Some towers are poorly balanced making them vastly superior in most situations making it less desirable to use a wide variety of characters.


Random lane steam rollers make certain defences generally undesirable, like traps and auras and this gets worse with the new chaos only mobs.  I don't mind the shield goblins, especially in maps where you have scope to place some projectile towers firing to the back of mobs (also helps to deal with rollers to some extent).  I think having different lanes that have randomised but consistent spawns of certain type of mobs will give you more scope to utilise defenses to counter them.  It is difficult to make every lane able to deal with every type of challenge.


I think the gold acquired from playing is on the light side, especially if you are upgrading a lot of gear with small incremental upgrades, that is an extremely costly exercise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@MushroomCake28 quote:

i dont blame your friends either. I feel much the same as they do. I was actually playing OMDU while waiting for DD2's big update. Though it feels DD2 took a step forward with blacksmith update, and several steps backwards with almost everything else, ascension stuff being the middle ground. So it feels like i might be continueing OMDU gaming until that beloved DD2 update comes. Though for now im still trying to play, maybe just focus on grinding ascension levels and nothing else of the content lol

Same situation here.  Was playing OMD:U while waiting for the update.  The gameplay of that game was good but the loot system was just dumb so I was eagerly awaiting getting back into DD2 again.


But after playing OMD:U where monster lanes are handcrafted and where you have a lot of freedom with your various strategies, looking at the huge orgy mess pile of monsters in DD2 with overlapping forcefields and EMPs going all over the place and all sorts of other crap where the only traps that work are the ones that have no hard counters whatsoever because there's always going to be a counter monster of every type crammed into every lane every single time, I just... facepalmed and eventually went back to OMD:U, myself. 


....though I too intend to just focus on grinding ascension levels.  At least until they nerf harbinger for it or something (and if they do that without fixing the mess that is Chaos, I'll probably just not bother with DD2 at all).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Vim quote:


@Nefhith quote:


@Cautela quote:

I agree with your post 100%...

It's even worse being a fresh 50 - all these people with NM4+ gear are saying that we're crybabies but they actually get to enjoy a diverse set of towers because they HAVE GEAR to support it... when we're hiding behind walls and leeching our way to C3 and PRAYING a good item drops to help us do C1... 

Not to mention, Solo play seems to have gone right out the window... 

NM4+ gear player here. Stop crying. I'm crying too. I'm lost and terrified, and despite my walls having several millions of health, I keep getting destroyed because I can't, for the life of me, figure out how anything works anymore.

If you play multiplayer, it is easier just to make a congo line of walls and shoot everything yourself.  Some maps give you the freedom to stand safely between lanes and shoot the shield guys in the back.  Just replace the walls that fall.  Don't bother upgrading or repairing.


If you are soloing... you are in for a rough time as most of the towers can barely reach the front of a wall from a distance they wont get hit splash damage and you are invested heavily in making sure that wall doesn't go down which limits your ability to get around the map and deal with mobs your defences can't touch.

I'm a solo player mainly, but the congo line strategy sounds stupid enough to work, so I'm 100% in for trying it.

I can throw about 5 1m+ health spike blockades per lane, sit behind with my EV2 and melt away, probably changing to my monk to smack whatever resists projectiles/charge beam. Thanks for the idea!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@VincentX3 quote:


@Jojozityjo quote: even go play Orcs Must Die Unchained, their loot system is botched but at least they seem to have map difficulties down pretty tight and know how to make challenge without tyranny.

Ha! This is a really good detail.

The irony is out of my 18 friends who once played DD2, the majority hopped in for the endgame update and logged off only to go back to OMD:Unchained.

I might just do the same, since it feels kinda lonely being the only one playing and not being able to convince them to come back. (With good reasons on their part, that I also agree with)

This is actually pretty funny.  My family and I have bailed on DD:2 since the Trials update for OMD:Unchained.  We're fairly new to it but enjoying it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some defenses being practically useless is disappointing, but I can deal with it for a while.  At least the currently useful defenses are ones I didn't use before.  I can tolerate the horrible inventory UI as well.  What's really killing the game for me at the moment is loot progression, or lack thereof.  Chaos 2 gives the same loot as chaos 1.  People keep saying that I need to equip my heroes with chaos 1 gear, but I've already done so.  With iPWR removed and gear-dependent loot added the path to progression is extremely confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this update gonna be huge and great. but i got disappointed.

i would love to see some changes in the direction of dungeon defenders 1. I loved to see my exp bar how it grew each wave. the big auras were so huge and you felt so incredible good, even if u were bad.

the synergy between turrets was so nice. buff beam and summoner + huge auras + healer.


the update with the item passives: e.g. freezing with proton beams was so nice. you were able to syngerzie buff aura with proton + buff beam and some archer + mb pdt. this was a good idea.  i would love to see more changes like that. even the drops were kinda balanced. the drops are so weak now and u cant get further. 

Dungeon defenders 1 was so perfect in its style. just copy that and try do add some fixes. it felt so great to play this. u had so much endless fun in endless mode and new heroic battles after you have done all the nightmare things. more hard challenges. BUT you allways had to syngergize the turrets.


now its like place this one there. that one there.. Oh, you ran out of DU..

the idea with new enemys is interesting, but pls bring back the turret synergy + some maps with more DU were u can actually synergize the turrets. its impossible atm, because so less DU and the only the most guys do is: harpoon, rampster, wall... but thats no syngergizing turrets with each other. make oil turrets, and the other class burns them with huge dmg. or the hunter water traps syngergizing with anti air was so nice as well. 

just try to make it kinda like dd1.. please, everyone is here because dd1 was so great. we all loved the style of dd1. but the thing dd1 is missing: graphfics and a bit of gamestyle. 


and pls add a multiple selection for items in bags. horrible to switch 1 by 1 item to another bag ._.


mfg


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Kambien quote:


@VincentX3 quote:


@Jojozityjo quote: even go play Orcs Must Die Unchained, their loot system is botched but at least they seem to have map difficulties down pretty tight and know how to make challenge without tyranny.

Ha! This is a really good detail.

The irony is out of my 18 friends who once played DD2, the majority hopped in for the endgame update and logged off only to go back to OMD:Unchained.

I might just do the same, since it feels kinda lonely being the only one playing and not being able to convince them to come back. (With good reasons on their part, that I also agree with)

This is actually pretty funny.  My family and I have bailed on DD:2 since the Trials update for OMD:Unchained.  We're fairly new to it but enjoying it!

it is pretty fun, minus the crappy loot system they have for getting new stuff lol

im still trying dd2 though too, doing omdu for dailies and such, and doing dd2 mostly for ascension levels, not eve ntrying for shards anymore cause, there's no point, it's all so rng and no way of knowing for sure where thigns are, and it even seems tehy removed a LOT of the old passsives from the game, it's just, well, Chaos, not fun, so i just do maps to try things and mostly to grind ascension levels while playing with the very few friends who are also putting up with dd2 till they fix their crap lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah yes.

Here are the tears I predicted.

I'm drinking it up. So delicious.

That said, I do think things are a bit overkill and have been saying so throughout the development of chaos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@VincentX3 quote:

But yea, I don't blame them for not wanting to play either, between the lack of the general "feel of power" (Seriously what is +20 ability power per point? No really, someone do the math and tell me how much damage that actually gives me per point, betting on less than 0.1%) and the fact that you earn 2 at times 3 shards per 5 rounds with tons of bad repeats... it gets stale really fast, and we're only 3 days into the update...

Then the entire rotation thing they have going for the chaos modes is nonsense. I could be more forgiving if it was rotated daily but no, same boring maps, the majority of which the player-base has been playing for over 2 years now.


So lets sum this up so far:

  • Lack of feeling of accomplishment
  • Ascension system is pretty much meaningless until you get into the 1000's, being lv10 has the same feeling as being lv30.

I've seen some other multiplayer games that have added systems similar to Ascension, similarly touting it as "infinite leveling".  The thing is, when you increment what you get from each level to such small amounts to stretch it out to "infinity", it's hard to notice any sense of progression whatsoever.  Improving my damage by "10" is likely to be so marginal that it's not really going to seem any different.  Sure, someone with 1000 Ascension levels is going to definitely be more powerful compared to someone with 10 side-by-side, but with as little as you get each level, how much are you really going to notice an improvement unless you make those comparisons, particularly when you can get items that will give you far more of a boost?

And that's something that eventually saps any feeling of accomplishment out of it.  If I can't readily notice the reward I'm getting for gaining Ascension levels, how am I supposed to feel like I'm actually accomplishing anything?  It just becomes a number I'm grinding, something that will lose appeal.

Other games I've seen at least add milestone type of rewards for hitting certain amounts, so at least you feel like you have something tangible you can work towards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Diablo 3 has infinite paragon levels and the stat increases per level are also fairly minimal.  The difference is that paragon levels are earned much faster.  At best I got four levels from completing a single greater rift, and even at paragon 580 it's still possible to get two levels per rift.  You get the huge XP reward even if you fail to complete the rift in time (as long as you eventually kill the boss), so there's no risk in trying harder rifts.

DD2, by contrast, gives approximately one ascension level per succesful trial, playing a map takes twice as long as completing a rift in Diablo 3 and you'll miss the majority of XP if you are defeated.  I'm something like ascension 38 now; in Diablo 3 I was probably around 200 after a similar amount of playtime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@tdb quote:

Diablo 3 has infinite paragon levels and the stat increases per level are also fairly minimal.  The difference is that paragon levels are earned much faster.  At best I got four levels from completing a single greater rift, and even at paragon 580 it's still possible to get two levels per rift.  You get the huge XP reward even if you fail to complete the rift in time (as long as you eventually kill the boss), so there's no risk in trying harder rifts.

DD2, by contrast, gives approximately one ascension level per succesful trial, playing a map takes twice as long as completing a rift in Diablo 3 and you'll miss the majority of XP if you are defeated.  I'm something like ascension 38 now; in Diablo 3 I was probably around 200 after a similar amount of playtime.

that's a whole other problem, which this update is chalk full of them. Ascension system is nice, but the way trendy did it, makes it feel like nothing but a mind numbing grind for almost no reward, and sometimes even not a reward, but a trade off. Seriously? Gambit? How about, for 1 small thing you could do to make ascension better trendy. Take out the gambit part. Just leave it as +Range. Dont punish us for taking a stat we grinded for.


But that's off topic. This particular topic is for the mobs vs defenses. How Trendy may as well just delete half their heroes and 80% of their towers cause none of it is ever useful after campaign. Fix it trendy, along with everything else that's been broken with this update.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading some of the post i think it's a bit funny, because i just finished Chaos 4 with my main dmg towers being Sand traps and Hornets i've tried a lot of different strategies and i think most towers are useful in this update, try mixing the stats around and different builds, but i agree with some of the ppl here, there are some balancing to do especially for fresh 50s but so far good job with the patch! I think it's alot funnier to play now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...