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Ascension points and multi hero creation.


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Going by what I can take from the Ascension levels some if not all defenses will be competing for the same allocation of stats. Going from the stream Hornets, harpy's, slimes etc all compete for the same points to empower those defenses.

Now this is no big deal when we just start out, but by Ascension level 1500 (500 points in Defense) we will be massively nerfing out defenses by not using multiple heroes. In short having 500 points in Hornets, is going to be far better then 100 points in each defense (Dryads having 5 defenses), therefore one would want 5 builders.

At that point, it would be far far better to have 5 naked builders, each with 1 relic for a specific defense, and then creating a 6th for DPS as utility points also compete Hero crit with defense crit.

I will go from using 2 dps monks and 2 builder monks to using, 2 dps monks and potentially 4 builder monks. I hate to say this, but the ascension system seems to be undermining the very notion of merging multiple heroes into 1 at least at high Ascension levels. 

Am I wrong here? or is this intended?

Could a solution be to make Ascension points Class wide? therefore removing the possibility of having different stat allocations between heroes of the same class? Is this already implemented and just wasn't mentioned?

Some info would be really appreciated.

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Don't forget that selling character slots is part of the profit model.

You are right in that it will force some specialization on characters.  We're going to have to see how hard these ascension points are to get, because without a cap you can eventually max everything on your characters, and probably everything you want to use before that.

It is, as you said, much easier to make a separate character for each defense, which is completely backwards from what they said about having actual characters.  More likely we will have 1 dps hero and 1 defense hero, who can pick up everything they want for 1 or 2 defenses you actually use.


Eventually, with enough levels, one character can do everything though.  I'll judge it when I can play it.

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Looks like we gonna have to wait till its out then see how it goes, I know I got at least 4 of each character ready to go.
I just hope we don't need 5 lavamancers to make 5 volcanoes anymore.

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Isn't it the case now that the Offensive tree and Defensive tree are only for dps and builder stuff respectively. Since they give ascension points per level that go offense, defense, utility, offense etc, you should be able at least have a hero that is both good at dps and 1 defense (ignoring pet stats). Though it seems that utility tree has stuff for both so who knows.

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Yup - seems like you definitely want to specialize towers still. But you can build the others somewhat, and can build and DPS with the same char fairly efficiently (not 100% sure on the utility column and there seems to be some powers that help both DPS and Towers).

How could they get around this? Well, I guess they could:

1) Ascension powers are predefined per level instead of chosen.

2) Ascension builder powers help all towers (ie +1% damage or +1% range). This might minimize the problem, but you wouldn't want to have your waller get better range or really worry too much about your aura having higher health, so may not fix it.

3) Ascension powers are picked out for each class. So if you have 10 huntresses, they will all get the same bonuses!

Not sure I like any of those options - any other way?

The only other thing left is pets still have builder and DPS stats, so that matters somewhat. Either change them to DPS only, remove stats completely, or possibly have 1 pet per tower and 1 for DPS?


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@Furied quote:

Eventually, with enough levels, one character can do everything though.  I'll judge it when I can play it.

No thats the problem, the more ascension levels you have the more important it is to have multiple heroes, until you start maxing out a minimum of 2 defenses, which is 999x2x2x3, for a total of 11988 ascension levels. This is because, each defense has two sets of 0/999 stat allocation slots, you would need both maxed, then you would need another set of defense allocation slots maxed, and all of that is only 1/3 of the levels you have had to grind due to only every 3rd level giving defense points.

example:

This is basically what a monk will see in his Defense Point section of Ascension levels. There are two categories for each defense, but for the sake of simplicity I am just using one.

  • Fire aura 0/999
  • Boost aura 0/999
  • Lightning strike aura 0/999
  • Sky Guard Tower 0/999

If I am Ascension level 1500, I get to spend 1/3 in defense, which is 500. So I have a choice of having 1 monk and having the following stats:

  • Fire aura 166/999
  • Boost aura 166/999
  • Lightning strike aura 166/999
  • Sky Guard Tower 166/999

Or 4 monks with the following:

  • Fire aura 500/999
  • Boost aura 0/999
  • Lightning strike aura 0/999
  • Sky Guard Tower 0/999

and

  • Fire aura 0/999
  • Boost aura 500/999
  • Lightning strike aura 0/999
  • Sky Guard Tower 0/999

etc etc.

But! if Ascension levels were tied to a class rather then a hero, one would not be able to allocate different ascension stats between heroes of the same class meaning having multiple heroes would no longer give one an advantage.

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@geo981010 quote:

How could they get around this? Well, I guess they could:

1) Ascension powers are predefined per level instead of chosen.

2) Ascension builder powers help all towers (ie +1% damage or +1% range). This might minimize the problem, but you wouldn't want to have your waller get better range or really worry too much about your aura having higher health, so may not fix it.

3) Ascension powers are picked out for each class. So if you have 10 huntresses, they will all get the same bonuses!

I don't quite like option 1. The point is having the possibility to customise your heroes.

But option 2 is great in my opinion, 3 is okay but I'm not a fan of it (seems more like a class tree than customise each heroes).

Supposing there is no cap to the ascension powers linked to specific towers (ascension level is uncapped, but there might be caps for some ascension powers, who knows), having ascension powers linked to specific defences will mean we'll still have to specialise. 

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@Zimmermann quote:

stuffs

It indeed worries me a bit. Another solution beside one ascension tree for each classes would be to only have general defense ascension powers that affects all the hero's defenses (example DP + x% or range + y%). It won't complete fix it (example for walls that don't need range and DP), but would still work great. It would mean that having 2 squires would be better (one for cannons/harpoons and one for blockade/dummy) and that's fine for me, someone who spent time to have multiple heroes for each classes. 

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rGr9l2r.png

Here's an image of the current Ascension system taken from the devstream. Just to help discussions a bit.

EDIT: You may have to 'right click' and 'view image in new tab' to see it at full size.

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@calmchaos quote:

rGr9l2r.png

Here's an image of the current Ascension system taken from the devstream. Just to help discussions a bit.

EDIT: You may have to 'right click' and 'view image in new tab' to see it at full size.

We'll definitely need multiple builders if those are actually character based, but I guess we are in a "wait and see" kind of situation.

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Yeah, it seems like the whole goal of this update was to combine DPS and builder in the same hero, but then the ascension system totally contradicts that, and actually makes the whole situation worse. Before you could have 1 monk that is capable of building the strongest possible Lightning Auras, Lightning Strikes Auras, and Sky Guard Towers all at the same time. Now you'll need 3 different monks, to do the same thing, one to specialize in each of those defenses. Unless you get 17,981 ascension levels on 1 character and can reach the 999 maximum for each skill for each of those defenses.

To me this seems like a huge failure on Trendy's part. They literally did the exact opposite of what they claim they intended to do. Haddad said this all came about when they made the Dryad and he realized he needed 6 different dryads to build all of her defenses and one for DPS, and this was supposed to solve that. It didn't solve that at all. And that example above was only considering 3 different monk defenses (ignoring fire just for comparison). For the Dryad you would need 29,969 ascension levels on a single hero to max out all defenses.

@mindlessdefender quote:

Based on that image it might work like paragon system Diablo has, where your points get split up on each category.
So based on that image the 15 points gets split into 3 categories making it so you can only put 5 points into each category. Meaning we may not need a dps only character, but we will need a character for each tower, if you want to maximize each tower. 
And each of those specific tower characters can put points into different dps skills and such,  So we get 4x towers/dps characters all together which is not bad, if my theory is correct.

You will still need a DPS only character. Check out the 3rd category. Hero Crit Chance, Hero Crit Damage, Mana (pool or regenration, not really sure what that is right now), compete with Defense Crit Chance, Defense Crit Damage, and some other Hornet, Slime, Harpy, and Nimbus skills for utility points,

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

You will still need a DPS only character. Check out the 3rd category. Hero Crit Chance, Hero Crit Damage, Mana (pool or regenration, not really sure what that is right now), compete with Defense Crit Chance, Defense Crit Damage, and some other Hornet, Slime, Harpy, and Nimbus skills for utility points,

I just noticed that :(

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@Zimmermann quote:


But! if Ascension levels were tied to a class rather then a hero, one would not be able to allocate different ascension stats between heroes of the same class meaning having multiple heroes would no longer give one an advantage.


Not a bad idea, but would you not still have to make different characters that use different shard effects for specific towers? Or maybe they interchangeable I not sure.

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@mindlessdefender quote:


Not a bad idea, but would you not still have to make different characters that use different shard effects for specific towers? Or maybe they interchangeable I not sure.

Shards that affect towers can only be equipped on Relics and each defense has its own Relic, so that's not a problem.

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Instead of:

  1. Offense (Hero)
  2. Defense
  3. Utility

Make it:

  1. Offense (Hero)
  2. Tower1
  3. Tower2
  4. Tower3
  5. Tower4
  6. (Tower 5 for Dryad)

So Utility/Defense powers would be grouped by tower instead.  Relics are assigned to specific towers, so why not make ascension points for each tower, too?

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Yeah sadly the only way I see this system working without being a COMPLETE contradiction to the hybrid style Trendy want and are apparently trying to achieve, would be to have each tower and hero dps point cap at let's say 50/50 then an infinite stat of 1% dmg to towers or hero dmg etc. Or something in this vain. Even still, we'd want to separate our dps and our builder heroes. At least we wouldn't need multiple builders this way.

I am really not for the Ascension system in it's current form, I really don't want to have up to 4-5 builders of the same hero. Maybe each Ascension level would give us a point in each field? I.E. 1 for hero stats, 1 for towers, 1 for utility? Or is it already similar to this?

I would love more info too please Trendy Staff <3 <3 <3

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@[UMF] Filthylopez quote:

I am really not for the Ascension system in it's current form, I really don't want to have up to 4-5 builders of the same hero. Maybe each Ascension level would give us a point in each field? I.E. 1 for hero stats, 1 for towers, 1 for utility? Or is it already similar to this?

I would love more info too please Trendy Staff <3 <3 <3

When you level up in Ascension, you get 1 point. It's alternating between Hero, then Tower, then Utility. Next point is back to Hero and so on.

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@MushroomCake28 quote:

Well well... why separate hero and defenses if you're going to add a third category with both dps and towers?  

thats only half the problem, the fact your towers will be fighting against each other for the same allocation of stats is a bigger issue. 

The 3rd category of points only divides builder and dps, which is effectively 2 heroes, while the defense category divides builders by tower, thats 1 builder turning into 4, and for dryads 5.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@MushroomCake28 quote:

Well well... why separate hero and defenses if you're going to add a third category with both dps and towers?  

thats only half the problem, the fact your towers will be fighting against each other for the same allocation of stats is a bigger issue. 

The 3rd category of points only divides builder and dps, which is effectively 2 heroes, while the defense category divides builders by tower, thats 1 builder turning into 4, and for dryads 5.

That is one of the biggest problems I think not half the problem. 
Because if they were to change it to 2 categories 1 tower stats and 1 dps stats, you then can make 4 monks that specialize in 4 towers and 4 DPS that specialize in 4 abilities or play styles at the same time. Without having to make 8 characters as it is now.
Making 4 of the same character is not a big deal as long as you can make them all specialize in a different DPS type as well. 
Game be better to have 4 types of DPS play styles for each class anyways, then having to spend medals or gems to reset points to change to another, IMO.
They could go down a more simple route and make the ascension points like the current stat points where its +dmg to all towers and abilities then specifics. But I assuming they want to make more sales on character slots so my idea would be a good way to balance that I think.

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@Little Magic Hat quote:

Surely we should wait and see what actually happens rather than giving in to guess work?

If you can assign points per hero rather then per class, this is how it will work. so yes its guess work, but its a pretty good guess. 

But i don't think anyone here is bashing the update, just voicing some concerns with how one could exploit or feel compelled to exploit this new system.

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@Goofio quote:

Instead of:

  1. Offense (Hero)
  2. Defense
  3. Utility

Make it:

  1. Offense (Hero)
  2. Tower1
  3. Tower2
  4. Tower3
  5. Tower4
  6. (Tower 5 for Dryad)

So Utility/Defense powers would be grouped by tower instead.  Relics are assigned to specific towers, so why not make ascension points for each tower, too?

I like this solution best, but possibly modified a tiny bit.  The dryad (and mystic?) will gain DPS powers slower, and everyone will have to cycle through at least several levels to get a point in a specific tree. The Hero group will also have a lot of powers in there (hero speed + hero health + etc) that are currently in the utility that I can't imagine will be picked over +damage ever for a DPS.

How about breaking the groups into:

1) Hero Damage (HD, HCD, HCC, etc)

2) Hero Utility (Speed, health, power cooldowns, etc)

3) Tower Powers, with 4 or 5 subgroups (Tower1 - Tower5) that each get a point every 3rd level up. So at 3rd level, a monk could increase damage on Fire Aura + AA, increase range on the boost, and speed on the LSA.

This will work very similarly to if you had 4 builders + 1 DPS in the current system, except you can get all those benefits in one hero.

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