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S.A.S. Question


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With Defense speed & Defense range making a return on gear will we see the S.A.S. be opened up to allow more allocation into the 2 stats? 

I would like DD2 to get to an uncapped & slightly more expansive (Hero speed lol) S.A.S. on release so testing would greatly help to get to that point, if that were to later become possible of course. I'd also like to see defense speed & defense range on Ascension if not already, I saw in the devstream that only defense damage, certain tower effects, ability effects, & ability durations are currently in the selection. Of course that was an early showcase so it could be coming. I'm looking forward to Speedy towers again & want them to be as fast as possible, even if they do mediocre damage.

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I first want to know how they will deal with the SAS. If they keep it as it is now, without changing how it works I mean, it will create the existence of DPS heroes and builders (SAS points into all hero stats for DPS, and SAS into all defense stats for builder). One goal of this update is to eradicate the concept of builders and DPS and to make one hero capable of both. 

They could fix this by removing the SAS, or giving points exclusively for hero and points exclusively for defenses, like for exemple 200 points for hero stats and 200 points for defense stats.

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It would seem to me they could easily remove the SAS and replace it with the ascension system (maybe that is what they are doing)

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@oo7superdave quote:

I hope they do open it up more.  Really i wish they would get rid of it all together.  It is a big reason why i stopped playing.

That's an interesting point of view, would you mind explaining why it made you stop playing? I've honestly never heard that before.

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@MushroomCake28 quote:

I first want to know how they will deal with the SAS. If they keep it as it is now, without changing how it works I mean, it will create the existence of DPS heroes and builders (SAS points into all hero stats for DPS, and SAS into all defense stats for builder). One goal of this update is to eradicate the concept of builders and DPS and to make one hero capable of both. 

They could fix this by removing the SAS, or giving points exclusively for hero and points exclusively for defenses, like for exemple 200 points for hero stats and 200 points for defense stats.

Hmm... I recall them saying in the devstream that they aren't building the game for hybrids anymore, but if you worked hard on Ascension you could effectively do both, if you didn't just want 1 tower with the power of 10. The defense damage Ascension stat had 999 possible upgrades & goes up by 1% of damage for each point.

Currently S.A.S. Is the main mechanic to even create a hybrid character due to how gear works. After the update we will only have accessories for gear tower stats (2 stats of 6 I think), & I haven't seen any mention of S.A.S. so I am kinda assuming it is staying.

Giving points for both sounds interesting but does skew DPS only characters & even tower only characters. Each character is unique, the same amount of stats act differently on each character. I'd appreciate a change to how effective the points are in each stat, after 15 almost everything drops to 1 per point. I believe opening S.A.S. up would greatly help hybrid characters, especially since they are still raising up the level count, to my knowledge, so we will have more points in the future.

It's best to give the player the freedom to play as they want, when you limit creativity people feel unsatisfied. I'd love speedy tower hybrids, I never could effectively do that on DD1 for PS3.

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@Edrath quote:

It would seem to me they could easily remove the SAS and replace it with the ascension system (maybe that is what they are doing)

Not exactly... The actual Ascension bonuses aren't for base stats, they are just multipliers to boost say defense damage by X amount of %. Besides defense damage & defense health, for certain towers (PDT is one), everything else is limited to only allowing 20ish upgrades of %.

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I know, just because we lose base stats but gain other types of stats.. in the end no difference.

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@Yuhaku quote:

Giving points for both sounds interesting but does skew DPS only characters & even tower only characters. 

That's what TE wants actually. TE wants to get rid of the need of a specialized character for DPS and a specialized hero for defense (for a DPS and builder hero I mean, not DPS only hero like GW). The point is that a hero can build and DPS with equal capabilities stat wise. That's their idea.

Personally I am also fine with specialized heroes, I'm just saying that this could be problematic for TE's new vision for heroes. 

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If ascension powers have to chose between builder and DPS powers, there will still be a big benefit for builders vs DPS characters. If you have 3 chars with 10 powers, one all DPS and one all builder powers and one half and half hybrid, obviously the hybrid will not be the best at either building or DPS.

The only hope for this is that there are separate pools of ascension points - if every odd number was a builder power point and even DPS power point, then every character would have to have both.

But you still are likely to want multiple characters for a class though - if you have 4 huntress characters, each one can have all their builder powers go to benefit a specific tower. This assumes that some of the powers are specifically beneficial to one tower and not just generic. A generic power like"+2% damage all towers" wouldn't encourage multiple huntress builders, but "+2% PDT damage" or "+2 seconds Blaze balloon burn duration" powers would.

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@Edrath quote:

I know, just because we lose base stats but gain other types of stats.. in the end no difference.

I won't argue with you, I can see that to you it is no different. I care deeply about every option we get to further how we enjoy this game. Let's not take things away, but rather find a way to make it all work out.

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@MushroomCake28 quote:


@Yuhaku quote:

Giving points for both sounds interesting but does skew DPS only characters & even tower only characters. 

That's what TE wants actually. TE wants to get rid of the need of a specialized character for DPS and a specialized hero for defense (for a DPS and builder hero I mean, not DPS only hero like GW). The point is that a hero can build and DPS with equal capabilities stat wise. That's their idea.

Personally I am also fine with specialized heroes, I'm just saying that this could be problematic for TE's new vision for heroes. 

The specialization was more on the spectrum of 1 character for 1 tower. Pretty much everyone can agree that is bad, especially when you have to play a lot to purchase character slots. Seperating the accessories for each tower fixes that issue drastically. It doesn't rid specialization, shards will have all sorts of fun abilities to mix & match at our leisure. I don't believe they want to get rid of dps specialized heroes since there are more coming, looking at the Ascension tree shows a lot more depth for each character in dps not even accounting for dps only characters. The specialization is being put in our hands, lets make sure we can make the best of it.

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@geo981010 quote:

If ascension powers have to chose between builder and DPS powers, there will still be a big benefit for builders vs DPS characters. If you have 3 chars with 10 powers, one all DPS and one all builder powers and one half and half hybrid, obviously the hybrid will not be the best at either building or DPS.

The only hope for this is that there are separate pools of ascension points - if every odd number was a builder power point and even DPS power point, then every character would have to have both.

But you still are likely to want multiple characters for a class though - if you have 4 huntress characters, each one can have all their builder powers go to benefit a specific tower. This assumes that some of the powers are specifically beneficial to one tower and not just generic. A generic power like"+2% damage all towers" wouldn't encourage multiple huntress builders, but "+2% PDT damage" or "+2 seconds Blaze balloon burn duration" powers would.

Ascension is overall, each level goes to your account so there's little to worry about. Some of the upgrades have huge caps, enough time gaining points will allow you do as you please further on. There are duration bonuses in it, also an insane 999 cap for defense damage % boost with each point raising up by a whole 1%. No one is denying the want for multiple characters, there are going to be tons of shards for us to play with. I'm unsure about the separate pools for Ascension as not every category has something of equal points. You'd gain potentially hundreds of unusable points which would be something people will rage over. Hybrids are whatever you want them to be, I feel in time we can all enjoy a fun hybrid character.

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@Yuhaku quote:

The specialization was more on the spectrum of 1 character for 1 tower. Pretty much everyone can agree that is bad, especially when you have to play a lot to purchase character slots. Seperating the accessories for each tower fixes that issue drastically. It doesn't rid specialization, shards will have all sorts of fun abilities to mix & match at our leisure. I don't believe they want to get rid of dps specialized heroes since there are more coming, looking at the Ascension tree shows a lot more depth for each character in dps not even accounting for dps only characters. The specialization is being put in our hands, lets make sure we can make the best of it.

If SAS isn't removed (at at least changed in some way) that's still going to be a problem. For you Blockade Squire you'd put 200 points into Defense Health and you'd need another Squire with SAS points into Range/Speed/Power/Crit Damage for your Splody Harpoon build. And a 3rd Squire with SAS points into hero stats for a Tank, DPS, or AP Squire.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@Yuhaku quote:

The specialization was more on the spectrum of 1 character for 1 tower. Pretty much everyone can agree that is bad, especially when you have to play a lot to purchase character slots. Seperating the accessories for each tower fixes that issue drastically. It doesn't rid specialization, shards will have all sorts of fun abilities to mix & match at our leisure. I don't believe they want to get rid of dps specialized heroes since there are more coming, looking at the Ascension tree shows a lot more depth for each character in dps not even accounting for dps only characters. The specialization is being put in our hands, lets make sure we can make the best of it.

If SAS isn't removed (at at least changed in some way) that's still going to be a problem. For you Blockade Squire you'd put 200 points into Defense Health and you'd need another Squire with SAS points into Range/Speed/Power/Crit Damage for your Splody Harpoon build. And a 3rd Squire with SAS points into hero stats for a Tank, DPS, or AP Squire.

I'm all for an updated version, I would rather it not be taken away. It was a great thing on DD1 so I see it as a staple for all DD games. I personally haven't had that issue & after weeks of searching I gave up on sploody. I don't personally use squire towers much anymore, looking at the scale of stat points he seems lower than he should be with defense health. I honestly rarely use blockades, I use flamethrower as it's a fast tower & surprisingly doesn't pull much agro. That sucks if that is the case for others trying that build, I wanted a bowling ball build for squire but realized it wasn't happening so I put him aside. Hopefully these become more viable & overall more enjoyable after the update.

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Whether SAS stays or not, Defender Ascension Levels will server similar niches to a lesser extent. It depends how OCD you are about min maxing your stats.

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@Fozzie quote:

Whether SAS stays or not, Defender Ascension Levels will server similar niches to a lesser extent. It depends how OCD you are about min maxing your stats.

I don't think OCD has anything to do with it. 200 SAS points is a lot of stats. Since there is no gear with tower stats now except for a Relic and no shards for defenses except what's on your Relic, there's really no reason not to have multiple builders, if SAS is staying in its current state. You'll have exactly the same number of shards and relics to Upgrade but each can have SAS points distributed however best helps those defenses. We know we're not going to be able to beat Chaos V on day 1. Having those extra SAS points spent correctly for ever defense is going to get you there faster.


I'm not sure how Ascension levels are going to work. Are we going to have one that increases all defenses damage by X% or are we going to have things that affect 1 tower like 1 that increases fire rate for Frostbite, increases range for Flamethrower, increases explosion radius for Earthshatter, increases explosion damage for arcane barrier?

If there's 1 thing that affects all towers, then that would help with using 1 hero to build everything. But if individual towers have their own ascension abilities/passives/whatever then that would make it even more beneficial to have 1 builder for 1 defense. Put all 4 builders in your deck and when you earn enough experience you get 4 ascension levels to spend 1 point on each defense, where if you had only 1 builder and got 1 point you would have to pick 1 defense to improve.

The more I think about it, SAS and Ascension seem to favor 1 builder per defense even more than ever before with this update. Unless I'm missing something (which is totally possible since we don't have all the info yet) it seems like this update is going to do the opposite of what it's intended to do.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

The more I think about it, SAS and Ascension seem to favor 1 builder per defense even more than ever before with this update. Unless I'm missing something (which is totally possible since we don't have all the info yet) it seems like this update is going to do the opposite of what it's intended to do.

Remember the "Power Up!" patch for the original heroes? :)

I suppose we will have to wait, but I think this will make it possible to make 1 builder who is exactly what you want for 1 tower,  90% of what you want for 3 towers, and 80% of what you want for a DPS. Which is way better than the old way, but yeah, potentially that last little bit of power from SAS and Ascension will require multiple heroes.


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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@Fozzie quote:

Whether SAS stays or not, Defender Ascension Levels will server similar niches to a lesser extent. It depends how OCD you are about min maxing your stats.

I don't think OCD has anything to do with it. 200 SAS points is a lot of stats. Since there is no gear with tower stats now except for a Relic and no shards for defenses except what's on your Relic, there's really no reason not to have multiple builders, if SAS is staying in its current state. You'll have exactly the same number of shards and relics to Upgrade but each can have SAS points distributed however best helps those defenses. We know we're not going to be able to beat Chaos V on day 1. Having those extra SAS points spent correctly for ever defense is going to get you there faster.


I'm not sure how Ascension levels are going to work. Are we going to have one that increases all defenses damage by X% or are we going to have things that affect 1 tower like 1 that increases fire rate for Frostbite, increases range for Flamethrower, increases explosion radius for Earthshatter, increases explosion damage for arcane barrier?

If there's 1 thing that affects all towers, then that would help with using 1 hero to build everything. But if individual towers have their own ascension abilities/passives/whatever then that would make it even more beneficial to have 1 builder for 1 defense. Put all 4 builders in your deck and when you earn enough experience you get 4 ascension levels to spend 1 point on each defense, where if you had only 1 builder and got 1 point you would have to pick 1 defense to improve.

The more I think about it, SAS and Ascension seem to favor 1 builder per defense even more than ever before with this update. Unless I'm missing something (which is totally possible since we don't have all the info yet) it seems like this update is going to do the opposite of what it's intended to do.

Have you watched the devstream #70? They showed this, quickly mind you but showed it nontheless. I saved pictures because many won't bother to, yet claim they know what the direction the devs are moving in.



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@Yuhaku quote:

Have you watched the devstream #70? They showed this, quickly mind you but showed it nontheless. I saved pictures because many won't bother to, yet claim they know what the direction the devs are moving in.



Interesting - thank you for this. So there are definitely ascension powers that are boosting specific towers. The burning one increased Blaze Balloon and Oil Flask damage, and another one that just seemed to boost PDT damage and health.

It is broken up into groups, but not sure on the breakup there. It looks like offense add damage to towers or DPS, while defense adds charges/health. So you will definitely get an advantage to have a DPS that puts all the points into attack, and a builder that puts them all into building. At least for the first few thousand ascension levels :)

I really really don't like the "Reset Talents" options there - 200k gold? Just make that free please. If you make it cost that much then it makes it a lot harder if you want to play around with numbers and not just follow on online guide, and then when the next bug fix or nerf or bug comes we aren't pissed off our previously viable powers just got totally hosed.

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@geo981010 quote:


@Yuhaku quote:

Have you watched the devstream #70? They showed this, quickly mind you but showed it nontheless. I saved pictures because many won't bother to, yet claim they know what the direction the devs are moving in.



Interesting - thank you for this. So there are definitely ascension powers that are boosting specific towers. The burning one increased Blaze Balloon and Oil Flask damage, and another one that just seemed to boost PDT damage and health.

It is broken up into groups, but not sure on the breakup there. It looks like offense add damage to towers or DPS, while defense adds charges/health. So you will definitely get an advantage to have a DPS that puts all the points into attack, and a builder that puts them all into building. At least for the first few thousand ascension levels :)

I really really don't like the "Reset Talents" options there - 200k gold? Just make that free please. If you make it cost that much then it makes it a lot harder if you want to play around with numbers and not just follow on online guide, and then when the next bug fix or nerf or bug comes we aren't pissed off our previously viable powers just got totally hosed.

Agreed on the 200k reset, kinda ridiculous. We'll just have to be vocal about it until it drops to free like S.A.S.


I'd really like to see how Ascension raises up. Since it's seemingly infinite, will it be a static amount of exp per level or not. With some having 999 caps I'm dreading the possibility of it rising drastically each level. We don't all have the time to attain thousands of ridiculous exp Ascension levels nor should we feel like we are wasting away thousands of hours, on this 1 game, for the ability to build as we want in end game. I'll assume things will be added on to Ascension later but for now this is what we can expect to see across the characters.

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@Yuhaku quote:

Have you watched the devstream #70? They showed this, quickly mind you but showed it nontheless. I saved pictures because many won't bother to, yet claim they know what the direction the devs are moving in.

Yeah, of course I watched it.

  1. That's a work in progress. That is not what the final ascension system will be
  2. You are completely incapable of understand "if this then that" type of statements. You entire ignore the "if" part and act as if I'm saying I know this is just how it's going to be.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@Yuhaku quote:

Have you watched the devstream #70? They showed this, quickly mind you but showed it nontheless. I saved pictures because many won't bother to, yet claim they know what the direction the devs are moving in.

Yeah, of course I watched it.

  1. That's a work in progress. That is not what the final ascension system will be
  2. You are completely incapable of understand "if this then that" type of statements. You entire ignore the "if" part and act as if I'm saying I know this is just how it's going to be.

I agree on the work in progress, hence why the video title is "What to expect from DD2 Ascension" even if things change it shows what they have in mind.

I wasn't trying to come at you for anything but let you both see what has been shown so far. I don't post much so I assume when you multi quote, that all inside can see your reply. My quote of you was to inform you of what was shown, that's why I asked if you saw the devstream. I even let you know that it was shown quickly, maybe you missed it what I thought.

I do take offense to your bold claim of ignorance but I understand you acted in defense with the belief that I was saying you were assuming the direction. I was not trying to combat any of what you said, I didn't even bring any of it up, or even specifically state that I was targeting you. To be completely honest it seemed like you were guessing, you said yourself that you aren't sure. I figured it'd be relieving to now be sure & have something to point to for reference.

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