CDT Update 3 Beta - The Tavern Expansion Discussion

This post will be edited from more feedback I can provide.

Challenge Map it's probably not a big deal but you can just use a Summoner in the grapple room to skip most of it.

Otherwise, I like some of the secrets in the new Tavern and personally I think the Tavern is really well done.  I wouldn't change it at all really.  I like the upstairs because of the whole item displays you can do with it I wish it was where people spawned in though since it would be easier and nicer to find for people unfamiliar to the new Tavern but people will catch on I'm sure.  

As for the maps, have not been able to test them much the Dread Dungeon is completely fine it seems and adds more early content for the new people might have to restart over and play through the game again ^-^

As for the Temple of Water when the water level lowers and the crystal's move and such the defenses really bug out and it's probably unsolvable but thought I would mention it.

Going to try to be clearing NM Challenge map and see if I can get any feedback on the weapons since I've only been able to get INHC done.

Bad quality I know and it's probably supposed to be like this it's just weird cause a couple of my friends got caught into it as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N1A6GqBut0

Also for the 2 little secrets that I came across (Probably more) here they are

http://i.imgur.com/Qvfh2Qp.png

http://i.imgur.com/1tFoB4V.jpg

Sorry for the delay.  We have been working through some things with Trendy  to get the next beta out to you.  We hope it will have everything fixed and be a good candidate for going live.  That of course will depend on what yall still think of it.  :)  But wanted to give you an update on it since many have asked.  It is still coming.  Just taking a little time.

Have you guys decided on a pet for the Temple of Water / Dread Dungeon survival map?
I had some ideas for making a few pets viable if CDT is open for suggestions! (refer below)

Additionally for this update had a few quick suggestions:

-- Please change Tavern Defense in-game display name from "Tavern Siege" to "Tavern Defense", the in-game intro-scene name and the map selection menu name doesn't match for it. Shouldn't be a big deal I hope.

-- Additionally, can the SPoL projectile issue be addressed in this update itself? There is no point to buff a weapon and then have it unusable because of its projectiles, LOL. (Please refer to my previous post in the 1st or 2nd page of this thread in case anyone has forgotten whats the issue)

-- PLEASE BUFF GTH2/ToL/CD ACCS in this update if possible... and increase their drop count by one on CD and GTH2. There is already a lot of support and consensus in the community on the Update 4 QoL thread regarding this. So please address it in this update rather than postponing till the next one... which might arrive like whenever!
(What I'm saying is no real point in removing accs from Lab and then having their drop count and consistency low compared to how they would have dropped on Lab. Hope you guys understand!)

-- Finally, did some TL NMHC farming on beta a few weeks back. Had to properly think about it before making a suggestion, here's the deal: -- the buff for Chickens in TL NMHC is appreciated... but... IMO... its not enough to draw (most)people to run TL NMHC purely for the Chicken. The 30 point buff didn't make me change my opinion that I should go run TL NMHC specifically for it., Now what would be intriguing/interesting is that if Chickens farmed on NMHC can get a guaranteed projectile speed stat as well. That would actually & meaningfully differentiate Chickens farmed from TL INSHC and TL NMHC. Projectile Speed stat doesn't make very much difference to make it ridiculously OP, but it adds that extra usability factor IMO. Its the same thing as Fenix and Ember Pony, despite both of them being somewhat decent in DPS(if you don't consider the map's difficulty) but the lack of a projectile speed stat made them unattractive compared to a Seahorse. So its the same thing here.

Also, copy pasting my response to the recent beta update patch here as well, since that post gets less interaction/conversation.

Challenge reward limited to 1 per account

What like in CD? I'd probably have to voice my opposition to that considering we have no knowledge of how they roll, from the few runs I did it wasn't that good anyways. And if the reward rolling is like its in Ember/CD, then its pretty much worthless to spend countless hours to get one half-decent weapon. Reward limits and quantities should be discussed with the community is what I feel. But that's just me.

__________________

Fairies and Seahorses are pretty generic and un-innovative IMO(don't take it in a wrong way). I think certain pets like possibly the Rainbow Unicorn(good candidate, had a lot of support when I made a thread about getting it buffed barring one person!), Goblin Cupid, Djinnlet, Donkey, Shroomite, etc. to at least make them viable for NMHC. Also, unless these Seahorses from the ToW map will be different than Aquanos in terms of stat biases  and rolls, then there is no point in adding the same pet to an obviously harder map when something can be achieved on a far easier map. Leads to the previous issue like in the case of Mega Chicken, why farm on NMHC when INSHC gives equally as good Chickens for far less difficulty? Hope you get the point.
I might be okay with Fairy as one of the pets, but I think it will be a lost opportunity to introduce a decent variety in the game, especially in pets. I'd suggest pets for ToW as: Wave 25 = Pet 1, Wave 30 = Pet 2, Wave 35 = 3rd final pet, which can possibly be a re-modeled Animorphic Ember. And its color can be what you guys did with the Ember Crescent. Like a Ice Blob, maybe rename it that! Or hey... a nice glowy Blue Turtle on Treadmill, even fits the "water" theme, what with the turtle and the map filling up with water and everything. :D
Whatever I dunno pretty sleepy at this point I don't know what I'm thinking!


(Hope the post wasn't in any harsh tone or anything, as always don't mean to be mean/overly critical, so apologies in advance if someone feels offended)

Temple of Polybius bugs and/or game-play issues:

-- Hooks are still pretty iffy. They barely work and the final one barely teleports you through the final door(behind the spikes) if you're not jumping on the platforms and/or flying through the spikes as a summoner.
-- 4 Out of 5 attempts I've failed to get through the final door becasue the hooks simply won't trigger. Must have broken my E key by now trying to get it work.
-- Was Jester on 3 and Monk on 1 attempt, only once did it work on the final hook while I was as a summoner... so... lol.

-- As a Monk, I couldn't even get on the last hook which takes you beyond the spikes. Because the crystals that trigger the black silhouettes, water levels, or activate the water lifts, all 3(or 4) of them have weird hitboxes. They don't get triggered no matter how many times you hit them.
-- I couldn't get ANY of them to trigger or to change the water level or activate the water lifts while as a Monk(Tried hitting them both using a melee/ranged wep) or even as Huntress. It only works successfully (everytime), is when you are using an Apprentice weapon.

-- (suggestion by Darkdasher) Hints related to opening and unlocking hooks on ToP are very poor and someone who is trying it first time literally won't the secret floor buttons and will be completely clueless about what they need to do.
-- I also agree with this. I think there should be some visual cue or message added to aid people so that it will make it suspicious but not obvious for people to check out a particular area in an attempt to find the secret floor buttons after the Arch Kraken is killed, and then what to do next can be hinted as well. Regardless of what experience level the map is designed at, eventually you will have people with enough experience/stats but not know what to do in a map. It kills the fun in trying a new map and then having to look at guides etc. becasue you're dead stuck on that map. 

-- Also, the very 1st crystal which you have to activate to enter the map -- that can be triggered by just using apprentice weapons, the splash damage triggers them even if you dont stand on both the buttons to do the unlock sequence.

-- Harbinger... OMG... these have the worst hitbox in the assault level! You literally have to be in their face to be able to land a hit on them, extremely frustrating and infuriating! Now I know you can avoid most of them, but you still need to kill a few of them which are placed in certain areas. Also it doesn't help one bit that even their HP bar is completely broken in the sense that it doesn't show up most of the time if you aim your mouse cursor on them. I think this is related to their hitbox being funky as hell. Please fix their hitboxes, they are near un-killable.

<nitpicky>
-- Finding out Polybius Machine red-dot (during Kraken Wave) for people using a display color warming software like f.lux or something is very difficult. The red dot is just barely visible unless I put my head in the monitor. Can we have it to flash the red color on the minimap, instead of just being a static red-dot? Or perhaps slightly increase the size of the red-dot.
</nitpicky>

-- Not an issue in particular, but since I've brought up the topic of hitboxes, on Embermount -- are the Red-Wyverns that spawn on the Boss wave killable or not? They also have a weird hitbox, in the sense that their health-bar doesn't show up, assuming they even have one?

I'll probably compile a video highlighting some of the ToP issues.

On the topic of survival pets, what are the survival pets for Dread Dungeon? Or are there any pets at all? If not, then Imps(better than Endless Spires and in-line with random reward drops for Bonus Maps) or Djinnlett (similar to CiTC or maybe better) could be a few good options to consider.

-- As a Monk, I couldn't even get on the last hook which takes you beyond the spikes. Because the crystals that trigger the black silhouettes, water levels, or activate the water lifts, all 3(or 4) of them have weird hitboxes. They don't get triggered no matter how many times you hit them.

Are you shooting them or hitting them with melee attacks? Due to technical limitaitons, melee attacks won't work. The object itself is the "hitbox", btw- the static mesh itself has a kismet "on taking damage" event trigger.

-- Harbinger... OMG... these have the worst hitbox in the assault level!

Do you not have this issue on embermount as well?

As far as hints/help with puzzle solving... I realize that this type of thing is somewhat uncharacteristic of the rest of the game, and I thought of some sort of hint like an inscription with a riddle or something- but I think the problem with this is you'd have to recognize the object that provides the hint and know to activate it the same way as the other things. I don't want to just flash a message on the screen saying exactly what to do because that takes all the thought out of it. It is supposed to be a little bit cryptic.

Shooting as ranged and hitting as melee both. Tried with a bunch of different weapons -- including StS and Rockshatter. it only gets triggered by App weapons for me.

The Harbinger hitbox issue I do not have on Embermount, which is why it was weird to see it on ToP. Haven't tested on ToW though. On Embermount I can aim from long and hover on them to see their HP, and even hit them. Can't seem to be able to do that on ToP.

Yeah I'm in favour of keeping the hints(if any) as cryptic. It would be fun to actually decode it rather just just run around endlessly to find it on accident, or rely on existing guides to find the whole sequence. Some sort of riddle or something would be nice. I'm sure you guys can think of something, make it interesting to find the unlock sequence!
For instance, in ToL, while there wasn't any glaring hint, but the moment people explored a bit, there were the button tool-tips visible which made it obvious that there was a hidden code in the map. It was fun decoding it back in the day.

Also, on Dread Dungeon, the Ogre spawn notifications still appear despite disabling the notifications in the options menu.
Also, I still can't figure out how the Tower Transparency options are supposed to work or what towers(also minions?) it makes transparent. Maybe I'm just stupid!
A video demo from CDT showing how to make towers transparent or use that setting would be nice.

On the topic of hitboxes: (Can't get a video recorded atm coz Nvidia Shadowplay is acting up again)
But this is what I'm referring to -- 


More angles here -- http://imgur.com/a/MYJYy

You can CLEARLY see from the above image and the album that despite aiming from range or right up in from face the Harbingers are still invincible and their HP bar doesn't even show up. I've aimed them at a lower angle, with a gun etc. but they don't take damage. Dunno what's the deal with few Harbingers, it gets ridiculously hard to get past them without spending a decent amount of time to get them down.

I have a few very critical reviews of ToP map, gameplay-wise.
First of all, why in God's name there is no "spawn protection" in the Boss waves after you go through the final door?
Here is what I'm referring to -- 


More here -- http://imgur.com/a/wRKxh

I got spawn camped for almost 13-15 something lives. I had zero deaths until I entered the final phase. Following which I got spawn camped in the QFTLES Boss Wave and died a few times there and then the Evil Heroes Boss wave took almost 13-15 attempts to even get out of the spawn area. Not sure who though it would be fun to add a gazillion enemies, too bad it isn't fun!
I can understand the rationality for making this map "artificially hard" by adding an obnoxious amount of mini-turkeys, fish-wyverns, ninjas and whatnot but yeah... possibly my definition of fun isn't dying 100 times trying to get out of spawn. Also you spawn facing the wall, so you can't even see what enemies are rushing from behind towards you as you have to turn and then move, but by that time you're again pretty much done for.

Its ok if you guys only want a select few people that have crazy stats to play this map. I personally was never fond of it during the Last Event itself, neither am I a fan right now. Some design and game-play issues are taking away whatever fun I'm having in the Archkraken and the Assault phases. The last phase needs some toning down in terms of enemy count and other stuff IMO, especially if they are spawning elemental proof, which again -- it promotes a monotonous approach to use Mega Chickens as DPS pets becasue some enemies have a few million HP and can spawn as Poison elemental immune, so if you have a Seahorse/Cavalry -- then goodluck on the last wave! Which is ironic becasue looks like the Seahorse might be the pet in ToW survival. So you farm a better Seahorse and its rendered useless in this wave! LOL.

Possibly a character design issue -- but the Evil Barb doesn't seem to be holding 2 swords in this patch? Thought it did in the previous initial build. Also the one he is holding looks very awkward like its tied to his hands.

Summary:
-- Assault Phase is rock solid, fun and pretty nice, minus the Harbinger hitbox issue(which isn't a HUGE deal but it does bother a bit).
-- Archkraken Phase is also lots of fun. However, some Harbingers and Copters are still getting stuck in the 1st wave, but not as many as before. Still a fun phase.
-- Boss Phase is... simply annoying and poorly designed. It is very much the opposite of what the previous 2 phases offer in terms of playing immersion and overall fun. Completely takes away from the experience of the previous 2 phases.

One general QoL issue which ThePoet had already pointed about a few months ago:
-- I'm happy that the CD Portal can be disabled from the options menu.
-- However, once you disable it, there is no way to launching CD unless you re-enable it from the options and reload.
-- This is unnecessarily time consuming and counter-productive of what the intention was behind the request for disabling the CD Portal.

My suggestion would be:
-- Add an option to launch CD from the Maps Selection Menu itself. Could be under Challenge or QFTLES tab.
-- Until you gather all 4 Lost Eternia Crystals, the CD map selection option simply displays " ??? " as it does once you start a new game and have maps unlocked based on a pre-requisite, similar concept here.

Also a question -- the Fenix and Ember Pony buff, is it for base damage or stats? And if it is for base damage, will it apply retrospectively for already spawned Fenixes and Ponies?

As a minor update, currently towers built on moving objects will remain at their original location when the ground moves, unless pushed upward. I originally stated that we couldn't address t his, but we have found a solution, so you will be able to build on moving platforms your defenses will stay with them, if all goes well.

(assuming there are no major issues with this, it does open a door towards maps that are more dynamic in structure...)

Going to bump an idea that has been mentioned previously but not had much traction - raising the mana limit again for shop items.

I am not sure what the right new level might be as, initially, the proposed 50Bill seemed high but not i am not sure and could see an item limit of 74B, approximting to one cube, working nicely.

@mkjo quote:

Going to bump an idea that has been mentioned previously but not had much traction - raising the mana limit again for shop items.

I am not sure what the right new level might be as, initially, the proposed 50Bill seemed high but not i am not sure and could see an item limit of 74B, approximting to one cube, working nicely.

99B should be the limit.

Update on the Update

So I know things have slowed but the update is still coming.  However, things are quite busy at Trendy currently as they are targeting June 20th for the launch of DD2!!!  \o/  I know many are looking forward to it, while some hope it fixes some things that they think need fixing but still amazing to reach this point regardless.  

All that being said, we are waiting until they get a free moment to think about something else besides getting DD2 out the door.  They could possibly get a free moment before June 20th but I wanted to go ahead and let everyone know where we are at on this.  Also, the CDT has used this extra time to address a couple of other bugs so the time is not being wasted.  Please be patient with us and we will get it to you as soon as we can.

Thanks and Happy Defending!!

What additional bugs etc. have been fixed? A clarity on that would be nice! :-)

Other than that, no rush... whom am I kidding, this update can't arrive soon enough I need more Heroes!

UI bug on the current update (I haven't tested this on the beta, but I'm pretty sure this hasn't been fixed. Someone to test this would be nice)

In the tavern, pressing g and e when next to and looking at the crystal opens the map select interface, but none of the buttons are clickable, and the interface cannot be removed. Escape doesn't work, so it forces you to close DD.

It also happens to me when I hide the match then press g to open the map select interface in quick succession as well, although it only occurs when my laptop is in potato mode.

@Black Mamba quote:

What additional bugs etc. have been fixed? A clarity on that would be nice! :-)

For example, I was able to figure out the cause of the unintended increase in leather armor dropping on survivals.  With the bug it is 40% leather and 15% each for mail/chain/plate/pristine, but with the fix this patch it will be back to 20% for each as intended.

@Black Mamba quote:

What additional bugs etc. have been fixed? A clarity on that would be nice! :-)

Other things I've been working on that should be included in the patch:

• Mistymire survival weapon drop rate now matches that of other shards maps
• Weapon with a random element now have an even 1/3 chance for each element instead of being 60% lightning, 20% fire, 20% poison

Mistymire survival weapon drop rate now matches that of other shards maps

About time!

Guess i'll make a comment about the Temple of Polyb map here too, in the slight hope that we might get something to change before the update hits.

My general complaints about the map are:

1. Too long (40 mins normal time/ 30 mins speedrun).
2. No skill required besides stat bashing.
3. The horrible go play round-about round that is called the final boss round.

So the problems with the map are mainly due to the boss round. The assault phase is fine, and the second building phase works perfectly. After that however we find ourselfs in a horrible, zero skill requiring, go run around while being chased by trash mobs while firing at a boss while playing at 30fps "boss rush" round.

The CDT team needs to think about why we want new maps, and what the point of maps in dungeon defenders is. The goal of dungeon defenders is one thing, and one thing only. Grind, grind, grind, grind and grind some more. This means that each map needs to be fun, to play a thousands times over, while waiting for RNG to roll in your favor. Due to the nature of the game, this means that the best liked maps always hold the same characteristics.

• They're fast (<20 mins (<15 is far better though))
• They're relatively easy once a proper strategy/build has been created
• They can be ran with emulated heroes, or drop multiple items (getting one item means waiting 10 billion years for the current RNG to do its thing)

ToP is the exact opposite of all things that make a great DD map, its not fast, not even close to being easy even with a proper strategy (which again, removes all skill from the map and turns it into a pure stat-bash), and therefor cannot be ran with multiple chars, leaving you with 1 or 2 (whatever the final decision will be) measly rewards.

I will ask anyone, go run ToP HC solo for an entire night, and dear to tell me you didn't get suicidal tendencies at the end of it. A map that is not fun to grind, has no place in Dungeon Defenders. Nobody is going to bother to grind it out. You guys have done a great job with the looks of the map and are wasting it because nobody besides maybe 4 forum members are going to be playing this map.

So how do we fix it, well honestly, the super easy fix is to simply add the ToP items to ToW. The items are slightly better than AkaJungle items (stat wise) and ToW is a slightly longer and alot more difficult map compared to Jungle. (17 mins total Jungle vs 19 mins total ToW)

However if for some reason we don't want to add the two rewards to ToW, fixing that monstrosity called ToP becomes very very difficult, and alot more effort requiring. You can split up the map in two maps (Assault&defend as map1) and (Polybus bosh rush 10.0 as map2). Or if that is too difficult to pull off, a simpler solution is to remove all trash mob spawns in the boss round, in order to remove the horrible round about gameplay it currently has. However even without trash mobs i don't see anyone playing this map, for the main reason being that it's simply not fun to play. Sure i can bash my 8-9k stats against the multiple billion hp bosses, but i'd like to not feel like uninstalling DD after playing for a night.

Honestly, go for fix number one, add all rewards to ToW (and add ToW rewards to ToP), and leave ToP as a map that you can run if you really feel like it once and a while when you have a group of buddies together (That's what it was designed for) Because i highly doubt anyone, is looking forward to grinding ToP, especially solo players (which is almost all of the current playerbase)

@xentro01 quote:

ToP is the exact opposite of all things that make a great DD map, its not fast, not even close to being easy even with a proper strategy (which again, removes all skill from the map and turns it into a pure stat-bash), and therefor cannot be ran with multiple chars, leaving you with 1 or 2 (whatever the final decision will be) measly rewards.

I will ask anyone, go run ToP HC solo for an entire night, and dear to tell me you didn't get suicidal tendencies at the end of it. A map that is not fun to grind, has no place in Dungeon Defenders. Nobody is going to bother to grind it out. You guys have done a great job with the looks of the map and are wasting it because nobody besides maybe 4 forum members are going to be playing this map.

Honestly, go for fix number one, add all rewards to ToW (and add ToW rewards to ToP), and leave ToP as a map that you can run if you really feel like it once and a while when you have a group of buddies together (That's what it was designed for) Because i highly doubt anyone, is looking forward to grinding ToP, especially solo players (which is almost all of the current playerbase)

^ T H I S   x10000000 times. Couldn't have said it any better than this.

I've already said it before -- last phase is no fun. And well, got literally no response, sadly. Hopefully before the final release this can be addressed as more people play it and give their feedback.

The only reason i'd do ToP it is for the sake of getting a half-decent Monk Tower Weapon and that's that. Heck, I'm at a stage where I can just go buy one without having to force myself through the final Boss phase of that map. Which is so disappointing becasue the 1st two phases are very enjoyable.

And grinding a map that is not fun is just defeating the purpose of this game. I hope people don't misunderstand [[51354,users]] & my posts for "Hard =/= Fun" or a case of "git-gud + QQ". There are some very hard maps which are FUN, lots of FUN. ToL is fun, Ember is Fun, CD is Fun, Sky City is fun, GTH2 is is fun in its own way! Almost all maps in DD that have bosses are unique in their own way. The Boss Phase in ToP needs a lot of toning down.

One of the most ironic things in the Boss Phase is the presence of Elemental Immune mobs. Here we are adding buffed Seahorses in ToW Survival Ember Ponies and Fenixes getting a deserved buffed too. But... on the other hand we have elemental immune enemies spawn-camping the crap out of you on the Last phase if you use ANY elemental damage pet. This is a glaring design issue. I've not played the map since the last post I made about it becasue its no fun, its just infuriating to see a rather flawless run getting ruined becasue trash mobs have millions of HP and spawn-camp the crap out of you! Terrible design decision.

I guess unless the idea behind adding that map was that only those with 6-7-8k+ stats can no-life it without tearing their clothes off, then well I guess objective achieved. I can't honestly put myself through the last phase, ever without getting frustrated and breaking something!

WHICH SUCKS HARD becasue as I said before -- the FIRST TWO PHASES ARE SOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH BETTER, MILES BETTER!
I mean... the idea of an Assault Map + Defending it right after assaulting is pretty much what everyone who has played this game for a decent amount of time would agree is great. And in ToP its implementation IMO is pretty much spot on(barring some minor hitbox issues which I hope are/were fixed).
Granted the Assault Phase requires a slightly monotonous approach of using a Fairy, but its still fun, without a doubt! The next phase is about as much fun as the Assault phase, if not more. Two Krakens, where one is a dummy-immortal Kraken just adds that extra layer of intensity all the while having to defend the Crystal. Moreover, finding the Polybius machine to disable the fake/dummy-Kraken is a fantastic idea as it gives you real-time choices & decisions to make whether or not to brute-force the Krakens or go for the Polybius and then tackle the Kraken in a more controlled environment. After doing all that the "secret" is also fun, albeit buggy at times but still fun finding out the "stuff".
ALL THAT IS FUN.
And  sadly it ends there once you're greeted with one of the most annoying part of the map which just kills all the fun and forces you to just run around in circles with literally no strategy whatsoever other than having high stats and a bunch of fairies. it just takes away from the experience you have in the 1st two phases.

Along with the proposals that [[51354,users]] presented for a possible "fix", I might add another one:
-- Completely remove the trash Mobs(Ninjas, Wyverns, Turkeys, Spiders) from the OFTLES Bosses, Turkey Boss, Evil Heroes bosses.
-- Keep the Ogres & Harbingers in Evil Monk Boss phase.
-- Tone down damage output and HP scaling for all Bosses by about 25-30%(roughly) whichever makes it less annoying and monotonous and a bit more engaging and meaningful.

I'd like to get in the face of Bosses and fight them, rather than run around and away from them all the time. That is completely opposite of what you're supposed to do in a Boss Battle running around in circles =/= dodging / tactics!

Oh well...

Apparently the issue of character models not loading completely in Tavern still exists.
Switching the these characters load their models on a very very low resolution.
Switching amps and going back to Tavern doesn't fix this, neither does restarting it.

@Black Mamba quote:

Apparently the issue of character models not loading completely in Tavern still exists.
Switching the these characters load their models on a very very low resolution.
Switching amps and going back to Tavern doesn't fix this, neither does restarting it.

Is this something that happens every time?  I cannot get it to happen on my setup.  

@xentro01 quote:

The CDT team needs to think about why we want new maps, and what the point of maps in dungeon defenders is. 

The map was voted on by the community to be added.  I know there were many who enjoyed the map as it is but it is understandable that some do not though.  Not every map is liked by everyone.  As to your suggestion about moving the weapons over to ToW, that could be done, but I would have to greatly reduce their stats.  They are not at the same level as ToW weapons when playing on HC currently.  Also, both weapons are rewarded now when completing it based on feedback given previously to make it more rewarding.

Happens all the time. Its been there since the very first update as far as I can remember. Switching to characters displays them like this:


Extremely low-res low poly models.

______________________________________________________________

Also for the 4th time in a row on a ToP NM run the Boss Wave Kraken's tentacles became immortal & couldn't be damaged.
Was playing this time with another member, and they'll possibly mention this as well in their comment later(if they decide to). Spent yet another 15 mins trying to kill the Kraken. Nope.

I think... this map has loads of glaring issues even if all other things like "artificial hardness" etc. are considered and given a pass.
-- Even the Kraken's blobs on the Boss Wave phase have a weird texture glitch.
-- Half the people don't even know what to do after the Kraken phase, there is not a single amount of hint available. Of course this is a minor issue, but to be honest some sort of cryptic hint/puzzle/riddle would've been better. Finding stuff by decoding riddles and solving puzzles IMHO is infinitely better than looking up spoilers and/or accidentally finding something.
-- Copters & Fish Wyverns still getting stuck at tons of places, as before.
-- Even the Arch-Krakens in certain build types get stuck in the top wall behind the mid crystal. This is not a major issue but someone just doing a single stack build might find themselves tearing their hair apart trying to reach the Arch-Krakens! You only get 2 choices, restart or run out of time! :D

I don't really want to be mean or anything, but the last phase just doesn't look like typical "Ranked Map" quality.
I mean, in comparison to previous CDT maps and challenges like Buc Bay, Embermount and Pirate Invasion -- the Boss Phase of ToP is quite literally a sad-joke, barely polished or optimized its just maddening to run around so much. Which, I'll repeat myself again sucks hard becasue the 1st two phases are super good and well done(disregarding pathing issues). Even Sky O' Love is entertaining in comparison, which is saying something.

I think, hiding high-stat weapons behind such a ridiculously buggy map is disservice to majority of the community. I can't see more than 6-7 people farming this map to get uber high-end items. I know "play with friends etc.", but honestly...
I'll add more feed-back related this later, my hands are literally tired trying to turn the mouse so much in the last phase...

The map was voted on by the community to be added.

When was this? Before Ember release? Coz I don't happen to re-call this as I got back to the game after the Ember release only.

Ugh, one more bug... from ToP!
Apparently if on lower difficulties(Insane and Lower) you kill the Arch-Kraken quick enough before the game notifies of the Polybius Machine. Then this happens: Basically the Polybius machine doesn't despawn.
I almost died on that run while going through the magic-gate thingy as the Polybius machine shot a couple of fireballs there while entering.

I was able to reproduce the character models not loading properly here and there.  It is random for me.  Similar to Tinker's Lab as it has happened there to me before.  Not sure if that is something we can address or not.  Might be a thing with big maps.

@ddace quote:

The map was voted on by the community to be added.  I know there were many who enjoyed the map as it is but it is understandable that some do not though.  Not every map is liked by everyone.  As to your suggestion about moving the weapons over to ToW, that could be done, but I would have to greatly reduce their stats.  They are not at the same level as ToW weapons when playing on HC currently.  Also, both weapons are rewarded now when completing it based on feedback given previously to make it more rewarding.

I honestly think that the people who actively voted for ToP have not spend any time playing the map solo. I'm already seeing it in the giveaway thread, zero people besides me and BlackMamba (which also happen to be the only people commenting against the current state of ToP), actually bothered to play ToP solo. None of the 20 some people who entered the giveaway have bothered to complete the map on NM HC solo, and those people are amongst the most hardcore DD players that we currently have. I would honestly say this to anyone who currently thinks he likes ToP, go run it solo on NM HC.

In the end however, it is not as much about the map itself as also about the rewards, and i honestly think that adding the waps with the current stats the ToW is perfectly fine. (even buffing the ToW waps to the ToP rewards is fine by me too)

Akatiti jungle rewards are very close in stats compared to the ToP rewards, however  AkaJungle is both faster, and easier to complete compared to ToW. I feel like ToW giving out better rewards thus makes perfect sense. I mean last i heard the ToP waps could roll 900+ in ult++ form, while im pretty sure Clavas and Glads can run upwards of 850. So its not like we're introducing some massive increase in potential stats.

Anyways, i would however also like to give a massive thank you, to the CDT team and everyone helping them in keeping Dungeon Defenders alive.