CDT Update 3 Beta - The Tavern Expansion Discussion

I'll try out some more beta later when I feel like it. 

Note on polybius: dead chars on hardcore can't ready up, so there is no reason that everyone would need to wait 2 minutes for them to ready up.

Spear of Light centre projectile still not fixed or adjusted to ensure a dual hit by the center projectiles at range:

Add an option to launch Crystalline Dimension from the map menu itself. Right now, you have to go to the options, enable it then launch. Then disable it again if you don't want the portal in your tavern. Unnecessary process to do. Add it under the QFTLES menu, or under the Challenge Menu to make launching it easier.

Still no clarity on the sliders about the "Tower transparency" in the video options, as to which positions are the best and how to get it working?

Might run some survivals later to check if armor drops are fixed or not, fixed in the sense compared to weapons dropping way too much.

@Black Mamba quote:

Spear of Light centre projectile still not fixed or adjusted to ensure a dual hit by the center projectiles at range:

Add an option to launch Crystalline Dimension from the map menu itself. Right now, you have to go to the options, enable it then launch. Then disable it again if you don't want the portal in your tavern. Unnecessary process to do. Add it under the QFTLES menu, or under the Challenge Menu to make launching it easier.

Still no clarity on the sliders about the "Tower transparency" in the video options, as to which positions are the best and how to get it working?

Might run some survivals later to check if armor drops are fixed or not, fixed in the sense compared to weapons dropping way too much.

Spear of Light was not on our list this update but we can possibly look in the next.  

For the transparency options, they should work as follows.

1st - The transparency used by a tower with 100% health - all the way to the left and it is invisible at 100% health.

2nd - The fraction of health from which a tower will scale up in transparency

3rd - The fraction of health from which a tower will be fully opaque

Hmmm, wouldn't it be much easier and simple to understand if a single slider with 10 parts from 0 - 100% is implemented? For example -- each increment just make towers more opaque/transparent regardless of health.
Also, do the sliders work in the Tavern while building towers? Last time transparency wasn't working when I tried, in tavern or otherwise.

@Black Mamba quote:

Hmmm, wouldn't it be much easier and simple to understand if a single slider with 10 parts from 0 - 100% is implemented? For example -- each increment just make towers more opaque/transparent regardless of health.
Also, do the sliders work in the Tavern while building towers? Last time transparency wasn't working when I tried, in tavern or otherwise.

It does work in tavern.  You have to set them before building the tower though. 

We will look at doing something more simple though.

I couldn't find this anywhere else so I'll ask it here. The ember scepter has really really high scaling on the ev ability - approximately doubling the previously best weapon's damage, is that on purpose? Even if it is, can it be lowered again? It seems a bit too much of an unnecessary power creep.

@ThePoet424 quote:

I couldn't find this anywhere else so I'll ask it here. The ember scepter has really really high scaling on the ev ability - approximately doubling the previously best weapon's damage, is that on purpose? Even if it is, can it be lowered again? It seems a bit too much of an unnecessary power creep.

Just to clarify, there isnt any scaling that is special to this staff in reagrds to proton blast that is different from any other weapon.  The difference is that the ember sceptre has 1 projectile which requires a much higher damage to get dps near other staffs and weapons.  That higher damage is what causes it to be so good.  The damage displayed may throw some off though because the displayed damage is at a fraction of what it actually is.

Is it a problem?  I havent heard anyone say it is too much.  Of course not many seem to use EV much for DPS that I have seen.  Maybe more will try it with this sceptre and more opinions will roll in on whether something should be done.

Ok, I'll check it out later.

@ddace quote:

@ThePoet424 quote:

I couldn't find this anywhere else so I'll ask it here. The ember scepter has really really high scaling on the ev ability - approximately doubling the previously best weapon's damage, is that on purpose? Even if it is, can it be lowered again? It seems a bit too much of an unnecessary power creep.

Just to clarify, there isnt any scaling that is special to this staff in reagrds to proton blast that is different from any other weapon.  The difference is that the ember sceptre has 1 projectile which requires a much higher damage to get dps near other staffs and weapons.  That higher damage is what causes it to be so good.  The damage displayed may throw some off though because the displayed damage is at a fraction of what it actually is.

Is it a problem?  I havent heard anyone say it is too much.  Of course not many seem to use EV much for DPS that I have seen.  Maybe more will try it with this sceptre and more opinions will roll in on whether something should be done.

That's not entirely true though. Neither a classics nor a rift do anywhere near the damage with proton blast that the ember scepter does. My ember scepter has around 100k damage, on the same order of magnitude of the other 2 staffs. Does it perhaps have a hidden multiplier?

I think it is a problem. I see no reason to make yet another weapon (pawn shot) obsolete for even this niche use, while ember scepter is on its own a good weapon.

@ThePoet424 quote:

@ddace quote:

@ThePoet424 quote:

I couldn't find this anywhere else so I'll ask it here. The ember scepter has really really high scaling on the ev ability - approximately doubling the previously best weapon's damage, is that on purpose? Even if it is, can it be lowered again? It seems a bit too much of an unnecessary power creep.

Just to clarify, there isnt any scaling that is special to this staff in reagrds to proton blast that is different from any other weapon.  The difference is that the ember sceptre has 1 projectile which requires a much higher damage to get dps near other staffs and weapons.  That higher damage is what causes it to be so good.  The damage displayed may throw some off though because the displayed damage is at a fraction of what it actually is.

Is it a problem?  I havent heard anyone say it is too much.  Of course not many seem to use EV much for DPS that I have seen.  Maybe more will try it with this sceptre and more opinions will roll in on whether something should be done.

That's not entirely true though. Neither a classics nor a rift do anywhere near the damage with proton blast that the ember scepter does. My ember scepter has around 100k damage, on the same order of magnitude of the other 2 staffs. Does it perhaps have a hidden multiplier?

I think it is a problem. I see no reason to make yet another weapon (pawn shot) obsolete for even this niche use, while ember scepter is on its own a good weapon.

the ember sceptre has a hidden mod of 0.6x meaning that a 100k ember is = to a 300k anything else. this is due the fact normal staffs have a 0.2x mod. The reason the CDT had to do this was due to the fact it only has 1 projectilein order for it to do aproximately the same damage as a classics or a bloodshot in the form of a staff for normal use on a jester or a app it is a balanced option when doing normal auto attacks. But the thing is that the EV ab2 does not take into account the projectiles instead the beam is calclated as follows.

Base Damage + scaling from ab2 = Damage of Beam

Bt in the form of a normal staff or pawnshot base damage is lower lets take into account the kraken cannon as it has a disgusting 502 dmg Per ^ so what if we have a 400^ kraken cannon and a 400^ ember sceptre lets see the dps assming they both spawn at 0 dmg.

Kraken Cannon

502 x 400 = 200,800 base damage

Ember Sceptre

about 100,000 x 3 = 300,000 base damage

(even more disgsting when you get a 500^ one since those can his 450,000 effective base damage where a 500^ Krakon Cannon will only hit 250,000 - 270,000 depending base spawn)

Meaning our ember sceptre has nearly 100,000 more base damage at the same upgrade level This will not effect the proper dps of the staff from normally shooting due to it only having 1 projectile but it does effect the beam since the beam takes the base damage which is effectively in this case 100,000 more. Then that 100,000 also goes into the formula and makes it deal much more damage.

The issue is from my knowledge there is no way that the ember sceptre can be both a good dps weapon and a balanced ab2 weapon due to having to make up for the lack of projectiles it has. I do think it is a problem and i'm slightly worried that the staff of elders may be a very good ab2 beam staff also since it has only +2 on projectiles. Since there is no way you can make a better ab2 EV weapon than that ember sceptre. For a fix to the issue i have no idea withot slaughtering the staff in the use of it's normal purpose... being a staff. 

Hope this cleared stuff up if i am mistake feel free to correct me this is just to my knowledge of the item.

Have a good day

@Atherial quote:-snip-

Thanks for the clarification. My concern stands however.

I understand that doing enough damage with a one-projectile staff means higher scaling and therefore higher ev beam scaling. If there is an easy fix, please fix it. If not, that's too bad.

i understand and totally validate your concern, but I think giving players a chance to see if it's brokenly overpowered or viable compared to other DPS chars would be advantageous. EV has never been a strong contender for DPS, and perhaps this can change that for late-game players.

If the damage output is more disgusting than a mega chicken on a monk with hero boost, then yeah maybe we'll want to take a look at how that staff interacts with the beam. Otherwise, I'd see it as a welcome change for late game players who want to DPS with an EV.

Whatever you want to do with the Staff's interaction with EV AB2, just make sure the actual damage output on other characters isn't nerfed.

@gigazelle quote:

EV has never been a strong contender for DPS, and perhaps this can change that for late-game players.

Just a little clarification on this, because it's only partly true.

EV's normal right click DPS has never been good because it loses ~60% (40? I'd have to check) of the normal right click dmg to modifiers due to being able to use both huntress and apprentice. Therefore there was no good reason to use it as an all purpose DPS class because Jester did it better. Ember Scepter does not change this. It still loses damage to the same multipliers that condemned EV anyway.

What ember scepter does is boost the already obnoxious damage of Charge Beam to ludicrous levels. Even before Ember Scepter, EV had the highest ab2 damage by a VERY wide margin, and this only exacerbates that.

If nobody wants to buff EV's normal right click dmg, I think this being in the game isn't too problematic because Charge Beam was already strong to begin with. People are just talking about EV's charge beam damage now because now it's actually kinda disgustingly high. I would have to see how strong this is on Poly to see if it breaks anything, but as of the moment I have no issue with the Ember Scepter power level.

@gigazelle quote:

EV has never been a strong contender for DPS, and perhaps this can change that for late-game players.

Not sure that is entirely the case. Maybe not for sustained DPS but EV was considered quite the boss killer at one time

Alright, I did a moonbase run on the beta with a build I've been working with atherial on for survival mixmode armor. It surprisingly went pretty well compared to current ranl. Not much changed in terms of repair with only 1 summoner in for all the waves. I was worried golden kobolds might break the build because in earlier phases of the build being tweaked they were deadly and could 1 shot a mage, but it didn't even break a sweat. But I only did one test, further tests would be needed to tell how well it works. But otherwise the build is still very afkable for me at least with 1 toon only for armor drops. 

The new tavern was surprisingly just how much space I have to work with now. I've only heard about it from word of month but it was my first experience. First think i can say is there is definitely some framerate issues depending on where I am. I had some pretty heavy framerate issues on the second floor, but the first didn't drop as much as i was expecting. Keep note i'm using a rather dated cpu and gpu, amd athlon 2 x4 2.8ghz quad core and a 9800gt 512MB version. first floor seemed to remain in the 30-50's depending on what was in view. weapons on the floor tanked it as usual, since that is what kills my framerate the most.

Outside was fun to run around in for awhile, though its unfortunate you can't really put anything outside at the moment or rip drop. I noticed quite a bit of texture popin and geometry issues at places, but then that could also be on my end have that issue with some other games as well. Characters themselves have like very low textures on them that i noticed once i went outside. even eyes missing on some of the toons i messed around with.



I tried out eternian staffs to see how their dps is now, they're pretty good and definitely comparable with other multi projectile staffs in dps.. only thing i dislikes was the first ult i got was ultimate++  =_= to be fair i did use the old one practice mod on workshop to get them fast enough to test out how well they'd perform. That still stung since that happened to me in the past as well...

Anyone able to test out the armor drop rates in survival yet and compare it to previous? Maps with armor drop rate issues were more or less most of them, but in specific -- Embermount, Sky City, Tinkerer's Lab, Buc bay.

I accidentally hit uninstall while trying to take a backup. So I'll have to re-download the entire game + another 2.5GB to test it out, i.e. give or take 2 days until I can test it(got a crappy speed here). So anyone willing to help out will be appreciated.

My ideal test plan was/is --

1. Do 2 full survival runs each on all those 4 maps. Starting from wave 17 onwards(yes very boring, testing is boring) using any character except for Summoner.
2. Take a screenshot of the mini-map with Myth or higher items(enable from options) at the end of each wave to get an eyeball estimate on weapon drops vs armor drops later on.
3. Note down armor drops on each wave or mark on the screenshot itself with how many armors dropped on each wave.

• Run the entire process above but in beta and compare accordingly.
• Quality of armor doesn't matter.

well i only checked out the tavern for the most part but it was really cool, I think the expansion to the tavern was a really good idea and hope to see more things added on the outside of the tavern in future updates

Is it possible to expand character limit for messages? It's really low.

@gigazelle quote:

i understand and totally validate your concern, but I think giving players a chance to see if it's brokenly overpowered or viable compared to other DPS chars would be advantageous. EV has never been a strong contender for DPS, and perhaps this can change that for late-game players.

If the damage output is more disgusting than a mega chicken on a monk with hero boost, then yeah maybe we'll want to take a look at how that staff interacts with the beam. Otherwise, I'd see it as a welcome change for late game players who want to DPS with an EV.

Not when playing solely but when you team up with a second player (Monk) it will outperform the Monk by a lot.

Taking into account Atherial's post (0.6 multiplier instead of 0.2 for other weapons) and numbers of my old but still up-to-date dps guide.

EV: 2k DMG and AB2, 37k Chicken, boosted by 2k Hero Boost...
Pawn with 177k... ~30,000,000 DPS
Ember with 100k (turns out to be 300k Pawn)... ~50,000,000 DPS

Monk: 2k DMG and AB2, 37k Chicken (same), boosted by himself...
Monk's Wrench with 132k (Melee)... ~25,000,000 DPS
Obs. Sparus with 25k (ranged, melee-wise)... ~24,000,000 DPS

Please note: As higher hero damage as closer are the numbers since Monk's scaling of Mega Chicken is the best in the game. However, Serious EV still outperforms a Monk when they team up. A cat of a third hero has the same effect on both heroes.


Anyone saw the pun?

Eagleone

Acen explained it to me this way.  Most staves have a 0.6x display multiplier, so a 60k classic staff is considered 100k base damage internally, but is displayed as 60k.  The ember sceptre has a 0.2x display multiplier, so a 60k ember sceptre is considered 300k base damage, even though it displays as 60k.  This is why rifts are strange in 8.2 and earlier – they have a 1.0x display multiplier, unlike most staves, so a 100k rift is equivalent to a 60k classic.

I tested this on the dummy, and the pawn shot seems to have a 1.0x display multiplier, which means that the difference between pawn and sceptre on EV abi2 is equivalent to having a 5x damage multiplier on the sceptre.  Here is what I found:

　・ 214640 base damage pawn = 4423616 damage on dummy

　・ 118308 base damage sceptre = 12191786 damage on dummy

For the pawn, it was doing 20.61 times the base damage per shot.  For the sceptre, it was doing 103.05 times the base damage per shot, or in other words exactly 5x more damage.  That seems to confirm that a pawn has a 1.0x display multiplier and sceptre has 0.2x.

And in theory a sceptre can reach over 150k damage, which would make it 750k base damage (15 million+ per hit on the dummy), so a high-end sceptre can be 3x better than a high-end pawn for EV.

Which means that the difference between pawn and sceptre on EV abi2 is equivalent to having a 5x damage multiplier 

So, a 40k spectre outperforms a 200k Pawn shot... Wow, even worse than my quick calculation... 

I only played the little bit of the Beta so far but on the Challenge Map the grapples are hard to use you got to aim at the loops it's simple but the last one needs to be pushed back or something the only I can grapple is by perfectly aiming and jumping and hitting it.  Somehow make it easier and some people might not know they have to aim at it.

Not the best feedback, but I tried :D

We should be able to tweak that so its a little easier to find/press. It was positioned in such a way that you would have to look up to where you're going. But I agree it is ab it hard to reach.

@Alhanalem quote:

We should be able to tweak that so its a little easier to find/press. It was positioned in such a way that you would have to look up to where you're going. But I agree it is ab it hard to reach.

Yeah, the way I had to do it is be able to jump then press E on it took a couple mins to get but got it down.