CDT Update 3 Beta - The Tavern Expansion Discussion

The Temple of Polybius DSTs are now set to use previous DST projectile speed (current v8.2 projectile speed).
It probably isn't that clear, however this line in the release notes under "Current Known Issues" is trying to warn players of that issue.
"Temple of Polybius enemy DSTs erroneously affected by the player DST buff (faster projectiles)"
Until the next build, I would recommend using a fairy ;)  (that's what I've been doing)

@Black Mamba quote:

In my limited testing of the Temple of Polybius map, it appears that the DSTs are crazy fast and near instant, making it very hard to dodge if playing with characters having slower movement! :D I think this is because of the DST buff so it is applying to this map as well. I was getting knocked off all over the place in my first couple of attempts LOL.

On the new tavern is it too big?

Annoying stuff

The downstairs is fine to me apart from the balcony over the tavern keep. I find it annoying in general and in third person view, also you see the model go though the floor when you jump(also if people drop items interacting with the tavern keep annoyingly hard).

The stairs on the way up to the second floor you can hit off every pillar i suggest smoothing the walls(same for a good amount of the new stuff).

The armour rack at each side of the tavern keep is fairly ghostly and i can walk inside them(the ones indented in the wall they seem to be fine on the live game).

We have 3 host only rooms and we can invite people to the one, do we need this many can we maybe cut back?(i am not super keen on removing either of the current 2)

Concerns

The outside area feels like dead space its dark empty and meh. it feels rather unnecessary and i cant really see any reason to have it be accessible or there other than the view from the tower,balcony and windows.

The map file is huge at i think 195mb compared to other maps. I don't have a hard drive to test load times but i imagine its no where near as quick as most maps.(the biggest we currently have is GTH2 at 111MB our current tavern is at 100MB)

Upstairs might not be used much because its a long walk for? some DPS dummies and maybe a bunch of dropped items. (the problem here is that there is no reason to go upstairs for anything apart from a quick change of theme in the tower. I assume the top floor will receive more content but how long will it lay there barren)

The tower is so far out of the way i could never see myself inviting someone up-to it for any reason. Even if items are hidden when dropped because id rather just open up a trade.(also if anyone else sat on the chair at the same time(i dont know how the teleporting is being done/tested it) wouldn't they get teled up too and kinda defeat the point of it)

Upstairs is still too big for only 176 items still going to look empty.(assuming you have no items at all elsewhere(unlikely))

A random idea!

I think the original Host only room could have been moved back and that would have opened up enough space on the first floor along with current first floor changes. That would have given us a fairly large raised section on the first floor.(spawning floor? because of the size in the Ult Defender(cellar) room that could have easily had all the new tavern theme stuff, and the invite guest thing that we have in the tower)

in awnser to darks upstairs room me kiltedklingon and gunnar did a fair bit of testing on that last night and in gunnars words "found some goofy stuff" 

you can't summon more than 1 person at once each needs to be done individually.

host can see items in the top area but only host even if someone is looking at the item they are unable to see it. even if the item is there own item.

The "goofy stuff" is intended.

There are volumes designed to block the view of guests around the secret rooms so the guests cant see items stored in them.  Afterall, what's the point in dropping things in a secret room if a guest can just mouse over and see it?  

Yah i was pretty sure that it was intended also acen just saying what we noticed and how it worked out for us. also one commen on the contrast between the snow in the winter theme. outside it can be a bit jarring with post processing on. 

Speaking of Tower Wars, will there be a update where we can use harbingers? I'm an addicted TW player and love it. Just need to spam loads of ogres to make them lose, but harbs would make it even better.

Couple of Game breaking bugs with diamond forge.

So me, DarkDasher and Jemma we trying out the Diamond Forge. Turns out its buggy as hell.

• (Bug found out by DarkDasher) First off, if the host has 176+ coals and press the diamond button, it will spawn a diamond and consume the first set of 88 coals. But after that if you keep pressing the button you can spawn infinite diamonds.
  
  

• Secondly if, if the host has more than 1 set of coals(each set = 88 coals). And if someone in the host's tavern presses the diamond forge button, the host will lose 1 set of coal and will not get the diamonds. So the host ends up losing the 88 coals! We tested this multiple times just to be sure, so even if we all leave the tavern and join our own taverns individually even then the coals and the diamond doesn't spawn for the host or the whoever pressed the forge button.

@Etheral Gamer quote:

Speaking of Tower Wars, will there be a update where we can use harbingers? I'm an addicted TW player and love it. Just need to spam loads of ogres to make them lose, but harbs would make it even better.

Glad to hear :) I may add the harbingers, and potentially replace the goblins and just increase the continuous trash spawns instead. The increased mana generation may speed things up slightly anyway.

You can check on this but the spider queen should work properly on NM now.

@Alhanalem quote:

@Etheral Gamer quote:

Speaking of Tower Wars, will there be a update where we can use harbingers? I'm an addicted TW player and love it. Just need to spam loads of ogres to make them lose, but harbs would make it even better.

Glad to hear :) I may add the harbingers, and potentially replace the goblins and just increase the continuous trash spawns instead. The increased mana generation may speed things up slightly anyway.

You can check on this but the spider queen should work properly on NM now.

That's gonna be great, tower wars is so damn fun but no one plays it. It gets really competitive if your fighting against your friends or a hacker. It's fun beating a hacker until they kick you as they are host. Fun Fun Fun!

EDIT: Playing Tower Wars right now, I just remembered copter ogres can damage the crystals. It's pretty op on nightmare as copters have a chance to spawn behind the middle crystal which is a easy gameover.

Regarding Tavern Feedback (thank you for posting) 
-Tavern Load times were tested despite it's file size the load time on the test machine (a 6 year old laptop) loading rarely topped 20 seconds. [Hard drive health will drastically impact loading time on any game... so it's impossible for that to be improved on our end. There's already the maximum amount of optimization that can be done on the engine side.]  

-The space in the tavern might seem excessive compared to the tiny compartment that is the original.  But there are secrets around the tavern for getting around faster between the floors, if you look hard enough they're easy to find. 

-Regarding the long walk between floors and the tower it's all subjective to how fast your character is. The stairwell is in it's optimal spot and the length isn't longer than the stretch of mid-floor space it connects to it on the first floor.   Not much can be done but.. see the second bullet point above for getting around quicker. 

-Don't hug the walls if you don't want to get splinters.

-The outdoors is there because it was a major request, and will serve other purposes in the future. 

- The seeming "excessive" space in the upstairs serves it's purpose for future updates once some underlying issues are worked out. RIght now it's just.. you know the beta. 
-Thanks for the info about the Diamond forge, reasons why we have beta's fit the forge's example.  Most of those issues are resolved for the next build. 

@Nexus quote:

Regarding Tavern Feedback (thank you for posting) 
-Tavern Load times were tested despite it's file size the load time on the test machine (a 6 year old laptop) loading rarely topped 20 seconds. [Hard drive health will drastically impact loading time on any game... so it's impossible for that to be improved on our end. There's already the maximum amount of optimization that can be done on the engine side.]  

-The space in the tavern might seem excessive compared to the tiny compartment that is the original.  But there are secrets around the tavern for getting around faster between the floors, if you look hard enough they're easy to find. 

-Regarding the long walk between floors and the tower it's all subjective to how fast your character is. The stairwell is in it's optimal spot and the length isn't longer than the stretch of mid-floor space it connects to it on the first floor.   Not much can be done but.. see the second bullet point above for getting around quicker. 

-Don't hug the walls if you don't want to get splinters.

-The outdoors is there because it was a major request, and will serve other purposes in the future. 

- The seeming "excessive" space in the upstairs serves it's purpose for future updates once some underlying issues are worked out. RIght now it's just.. you know the beta. 
-Thanks for the info about the Diamond forge, reasons why we have beta's fit the forge's example.  Most of those issues are resolved for the next build. 

i went and tested the load times compared to current on my pc and fps

Beta

No items

Load from Deeper well: 13 seconds average(back to back loading) 

New Tavern at Spawn: 56

Far Corner Ground floor facing spawn:50

Second Floor facing middle:49

outside fps facing the pile of items from the gate(with love theme): 43

88 Items (in the same spot first floor)

New Tavern at Spawn: 40

Far Corner Ground floor facing spawn:38

Second Floor facing middle:41

outside fps facing the pile of items from the gate(with love theme): 31

176 Items (in the same spot first floor the extra items were of about the same consistency of beams and item types)

New Tavern at Spawn: 30

Far Corner Ground floor facing spawn:29

Second Floor facing middle:36

outside fps facing the pile of items from the gate(with love theme): 27

Live

No items

Load from Deeper well:5.5 seconds average

Tavern at Spawn: 62(feels capped)

Far Corner Ground floor facing spawn:62

88 Items

Tavern at Spawn: 62

Far Corner Ground floor facing spawn:62

with 88 items on the floor i can't get the fps below 60 only when violently shaking the camera

Used the exact same 88 items from my stuff folder containing a good mix of weapons, armour, pets & accs.

beams were on, Postprocessing on

Video settings were the same saturation, gamma the lot

the load time has gone up a fair bit and you still want to add more it can only get worse same with the frame rate

"Don't hug the walls if you don't want to get splinters." in the ember tavern the walls around and down to the cellar are all nice and smooth the new walls are all lumpy and bumpy.

The outside runs nicely fps wise but if you turn and look at the tavern for me it was about a 15-20 fps hit

So I was waiting to post this but I wanted to make sure I explore and spend time in the Tavern quite a bit before posting this since it is a sensitive subject about this update.

I agree with DarkDasher, if you take a look at the video I posted few pages ago(regarding the theme not saving bug) you will see how the FPS fluctuates all over the place. Its not a good thing, the Tavern of all places is supposed to be the most rock solid map in this game where FPS drops are minimal. And right now in it current state(& size) the new Tavern is a total performance hog, that too without any players or towers built. So it will only get worse from there. My PC isn't a potato(at least not yet) and despite that I don't get locked 60 FPS in the new tavern, its worrying becasue people spend most of their time in the Tavern and as I mentioned a few months back -- its a sensitive issue so we better tread carefully with any Tavern changes.

I'd also like to point out that you quickly get, how do I put it -- bored and slightly annoyed by the new Tavern. It feels extremely dull and empty, the option to go up the tower feels like an unnecessary drag(I'd much rather have all those options to bring people in private rooms in the basement itself). I know there are plans to get things inside the Tavern to make it "not empty", however I believe pushing a completely empty tavern is not a good choice. This reminds me of PayDay2 Safehouses when the game was released. They promised content in the Safehouse becasue of how empty it was, but it literally took years and people got rather annoyed, eventually there was little or no interest in the Safehouse, and that's in a game where people hardly spend time in their Safehouse. So here if we push an empty Tavern there is bound to be disappointments.

After much playing around and exploring in the Tavern and talking with friends, I have to say that I have mixed feelings about it. I'd put them down in pro & cons to keep it simple.
Pros:

• The basement is nice, I like how it has more space and the Jukebox is a great addition.
• The Main Level is nice as well, again love the extended space(both visual and total item drop numbers).
• Themes are good, I only wish the option to change them would be given in the basement. Although I feel the Themes look a tad bit "unoriginal"(not a bad way). A few months back I had made a thread requesting screenshots for the themes. I asked it for a specific reason to be able to 1:1 compare the new Tavern themes to the original Trendy made themes. But I never got hold of any of the screenshots. So yea, once again requesting if anyone from the CDT is willing to share the older themes with me for comparison's sake, I'd much appreciate it. (Already got hold of Moonbase & Valentine's Themes, missing the other 3)
• Diamond Forge, great concept thoroughly needed. Right now its buggy but yea, once the bugs are taken care of, I'd totally support this addition.

Cons:

• Tower is completely unnecessary and pointless and serves no purpose. Everything that the Tower does can be done in the basement without the extra data(and in turn extra performance issues). Its just overly done.
• Second floor again is just... meh and for now pointless and empty.
• The outside is one of my biggest issues with the new Tavern. At first glance its okay at best. Its not graphically spectacular(which is okay) but more than that it serves no purpose honestly. There is a big sign board that says you shouldn't drop items out there, so why even have the option to go outside? Everything that the outside does can be achieved with a rather nice and performance friendly Skybox. Of the 3-4 hours I've spent(cumulatively) inside the Tavern, the outside was the place where I went the least. Never had an urge to go outside. Again, same as the 2nd floor there is nothing to do there so it is dead empty and unnecessarily big. So it consumes even more data and affects performance once again. Not a fan of anything that affects performance inside the Tavern. I absolutely do not like it, I'd much rather have a closed doors Tavern.
• Coming to the my second biggest issue with the Tavern -- the extended ledge above the Tavernkeep. I'll be extremely blunt -- I HATE THE LEDGE, HATE IT. Its very annoying. Please do away with the extended Ledge it looks stupid and it blocks you out so much. I have absolutely nothing else to say about it, it sucks and it feel completely out of place. That's my honest opinion.
• The Tavern has a lot of invisible obstructive walls(far too many to list here), its not smooth at all. And, "not hugging the walls" should not be a "solution" to avoid those invisible walls. Its just a cheap suggestion especially considering that the current Tavern in its new Theme is completely fine with barely any invisible walls.
• Performance drop is my 3rd biggest issue with the new Tavern. There is a lot of stutter and random FPS drops. It doesn't feel completely polished in any way. Now, reading Nexus's post he says the performance optimizations from CDT's side are done and you can't do anymore, to be that is a poor answer. Would you much rather prefer people struggling to even get decent FPS inside the Tavern itself? IMO, majority of the performance issues are becasue of how crazy big the Tavern is, it consumes a ton of data and the amount of textures and assets both inside and outside the Tavern contribute to the performance drop.

Overall if you ask me, I'm only 30-35% in favour of the new Tavern, which is not a good sign. If I were CDT I would really not push this Tavern in the next update, its very incomplete(content-wise), shallow and extremely overly done & gimmicky for most parts. I would also get rid of unnecessary bits -- Tower & Outside completely, and the 2nd floor until some content is added, which again is a bit of unnecessary thing IMO. Much rather have it as a separate "lounge-style" map which you can load and invite 10-15 people in your tavern to do whatever.

I prefer the simplicity & elegance of the current Tavern miles better, its simple, its cozy(a bit too cozy) but it gets the job done and has a very nice nostalgia along with it. I seriously can not suggest anyone the new Tavern over the current Tavern, they are miles apart right now.

On a final note, I came in really excited and eager about the new Tavern(you can check my posts on the previous Tavern threads), but the more time I spend in it right now -- the more I'm beginning to dislike it and that is my honest feedback. I absolutely can not see myself spending any amount of time in the new Tavern in its current state.

Edit :
If I you want my suggestion -- I would prefer keeping the current Tavern as it is, i.e. as the starting point of the game. And the New Tavern can be added as an additional "lounge-style" map where you can load it up and invite upto 10 people in your Tavern to do stuff or just hang around once some real mini-games are added(I personally don't care about these). I don't really think I will be playing or enjoying the game as much or anymore if the new Tavern in its current state is the default Tavern. I'm not against new content, but something as huge as the Tavern needs to be carefully elaborated and thought upon before making serious changes and how it affects existing players.
If the new Tavern is added as an additional map or there is an option given to have the old Tavern as your default Tavern(+ minor improvements and additions like Diamond Forge & Jukebox) then I'd personally be fine with it. But if there is no option as such to switch between the two, then I have to voice my concerns regarding it since it affects me as a player and it is something I am not at all enjoying spending time in.

Let me explain more carefully why the optimizations on our end are the only thing we can do. I could cut the asked for features completely or even downsize things.. but the fact of the matter is, is that there's a lot of objects that hit the performance that shouldn't be, but can't be controlled from our end without removing them entirely. For example, the themes are expensive for a lot of reasons.. without them there would probably be less trouble on performance. 

 But that's not the sole problem.  There's a lot of strict hardware conditions, specifically around Video Ram and System ram that the game just can't go passed else bad things happen.. like weird performance drops, crashes, stutters.. savegame bloating and data corruption.  It's backend stuff the CDT can't do anything about, so your choices are have the things you want and maybe never get a smooth 60fps.. (not really a big deal..) or get your 60FPS at the cost of the things Everyone has wanted for many many years.

As far as some of the other designs regarding the outdoors and the tower.. we can strip them.. but then there's continuity issues. Go play tavern Defense and you'll see a few towers atop the tavern.. If the completely optional tower is removed.. that's continuity problem... if it becomes inaccessible.. we'll see forum threads popping up asking why we can't go into it, or how cool it would be to go into the tower. So it really just needs to be treated as the other two secret rooms are : Completely Optional.. you never have to use them.. ever.    

Having two maps isn't optimal to load into.. and really would just be update-bloat.  If you can wrap your mind around the space the upstairs offers as space that never has to be requested again, by anyone, for all future content updates.  

I've rebuilt the Tavern many times since the game came out, an outside was a highly sought after feature even back then.. so that is something I wouldn't immediately cut, and themes as an option has an even higher demand but until now weren't a viable option till I came up with a way to make it all work together.  Players were taken into consideration of how much the changes affects them and the answer was.. everyone is still getting what they wanted.

But now that it's there, it's not "perfect" enough, without knowing how much effort has gone into making it compatible with the game as it is right now.. the fact that it even runs as it does is a feat that wasn't something CDT rushed out for the Beta... there was a lot of painstaking effort to make it way more optimized than it originally was, and partially the reason the beta took so long to come out to start with.  That is time that doesn't come back for any of us. 

 I'm not forcing the Tavern Expansion in anyway, just know that this might be as good as it can get, other iterations for future updates (which I just wont have time to do myself) will come with their own faults.  If other iterations become consensus.. I wish everyone the best in picking the best of the bunch.. I've given this one the best it could have gotten and still have it be playable. 

hey i know this is off topic but i wanted thank the CDT for all there hard work on this game you are bringing new life to this game so thank you so much for doing this for everyone who loves and plays this game....sorry for spelling

All I have to say about the Tavern is that I personally prefer performance and stability over additional features.  The 2nd floor I personally don't care much about, but the Tower and Outside do seem unnecessary, especially the outside becasue from what I understand it has a lot of textures and assets(trees, additional buildings, actively flowing water, and waterfall effects) which might be contributing to the additional performance drops and increased load times becasue the outside itself is quite huge compared to most conventional maps.
Apart from that and minus the ledge above the Tavernkeep(needs to go) I have no major issues with it. I would however have it polished and issues ironed out either in this update itself or hold it off till the next. That's my suggestion and there's not much I can do other than voicing my opinion about it.
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@CDT
Any update on the reported bugs so far, and this one:

• Copter Missiles going from down below the Reflects on quite a few maps(was reported long back before this beta update).

@mambo - The large second level is to accommodate floor space for shops. If you don't use it, then that's simply your choice. I know several people who will welcome the additional space.

I know absolutely nothing about payday 2, but I'm pretty sure DD tavern mechanics are fairly different to Payday 2. For example, shops. We already have uses for all that space that Payday 2 didn't necessarily have.

So, my opinions on the weapons, now that I've had time to mess with them. Here's what they look like for anyone who hasn't finished any of the maps yet:

From left to right:

Mischief Maker, Kraken Kannon, Elder Staff, Undertow.

Mischief Maker and Kraken Kannon are from Temple of Polybius. (challenge)

Elder Staff and Undertow are from Temple of Water. (campaign)

Starting with...

   Mischief Maker

High stats, terrible DPS. DPS part is interesting.

For DPS, this thing is a pile of garbage for melee; don't bother. The ranged attack, however, lays a fire that deals damage over time as shown in Acen's post. This fire scales with the damage of the ranged attack. The damage per upgrade on this is 28/^. The damage is boosted by cat, hero boost, etc. The issue is that you only get 1 projectile, so you just don't do damage.

   Kraken Kannon

High stats, terrible DPS, DISGUSTING ab2 damage due to high weapon scaling and low fire rate.

This thing is going to be a monster for Series EV. This thing puts Moby's Mobile Launcher to shame with 504/^ and similar stats. It's closer to a Pawn Shot though, with a large AoE effect upon hitting the target. (It literally fires Kraken's bubble attack) This projectile grows the further it travels, but the AoE does not.

Attack AoE image => http://i.imgur.com/TnCX0KW.jpg

Attack Projectile => http://i.imgur.com/5vkTpfp.jpg

   Elder Staff

High(er) stats, Appears to be middle of the road as far as DPS is concerned.

Can we seriously stop putting stupid multipliers on things? There's a reason you guys normalized the Fusion Rift's damage this patch, so why did you obfuscate this thing? -_-

Regardless, it's no Clava - it's moire akin to a Staff of Embers for stats, with 525 being this highest stat I got - and it only has ~95 damage per upgrade. Hard to tell when it jumps between 91, 94, 95, and 99 per upgrade. Did I already ask for you guys to normalize this thing? You should. Anyway, it's more like 150/^, and max base damage around 5.5k It is locked at  9  3 projectiles (don't let the visuals fool you), and has damage output roughly equal to a Bloodshot Staff that has 40 less upgrades.

Projectile spread => http://i.imgur.com/W4rl1br.jpg

   Undertow
It's basically a Roger's Revenge.

At 328 damage per upgrade, Crystal Blade swing speed, and (potentially) high-500's stats, it's another Roger's Revenge. But it looks a lot cooler. And it's also toothpick sized. Seriously, they're smaller than Dynasts, and I already refer to those things as "technorazors". Refer to the pic above for something on the small tiny side. Otherwise, I like them.

Largest Undertows I could find => http://i.imgur.com/7qKwo4r.jpg
Seriously, those things are sized around 1.4 and 1.5 multipliers. Crystals blades with a multiplier like that would be Glacier sized.

Things I Like

• The weapons look fantastic

• I like Kraken Kannon and Elder Staff as is

• Stat maxes seem appropriate for the weapons

Things I Would Consider Changing

• Undertow needs a size buff really badly
• Speaking of Undertow, you guys should mirror the hook onto the other side so it looks like an anchor. I think it would be sweet.
• One projectile on the Mischief Maker isn't going to cut it. Make it so you can upgrade it to +2 at least, maybe +4. It's a damage over time weapon like the Ember Flame. You can afford to beef up the damage output.
• The drop rate on Polybius (challenge) is WAY too low. As mentioned in my previous post, it took 12 run to get an Ult Kraken Cannon. Considering you're looking at a minimum half hour investment, a map FAR harder than Crystalline Dimension that you cannot carry afk's on, I really think that the drop rate is unacceptable as it stands.
• I also agree with Kirbykibble that the items spawn with negatives too often. (again on challenge)
  
• NORMALIZE ELDER STAFF LEVEL UP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD (seriously the projectiles do 3x an equiv damage staff at full charge)

Once again thank you guys for the hard work that went into this update because I think it's fantastic.

There are changes coming to the tavern for the next beta update: 
- Theme's will not be available or enabled (if determined to be the problem, will not be available again.) 

 - Controls for the themes will be available in all secret rooms if themes are not deemed an issue to performance. 

- Fixes for all Diamond Forge issues

- Fixes for missing Trophies. 

Keep in mind the exterior space, the upstairs and the tower are all optional spaces, they never have to be used if you don't want to use them. If you don't like them.. you simply don't have to use them.  There wont be any changes regarding these spaces aside from content updates in the future.  

Regarding the "balcony" over the Tavern Keeper, I understand it seems to be causing some players frustration with not being able to jump onto that bar surface any longer. Try to understand that it is not the point of that addition to cause frustration but to provide better trophy organization.  Another option is being considered, but it will remain for the time being.   

 If anyone else feels that the Tavern Expansion is gimmicky.. understand that aside from storage, a shop and trading,  the Tavern by its own concept is and has been a big gimmick since day one. There's really no other reason for it to exist aside from those main three reasons, and even then.. some very simplified menu systems can replace the gimmicks so no one has to suffer the convenience it provides.  

Enjoy it such as it is as one large enhanced "gimmick".  If it feels "rough around the edges" then I've done my job as an artist, it's a tavern in the woods.. not a palace with a golden throne. 

From the above post I get the feeling that you don't want "real" feedback, or that you can't handle some straight-forward criticism. So moving on I won't be providing feedback on the Tavern or whatever its updated to. So this is my last post regarding this issue, and possibly this update since there isn't much else left to provide feedback on, at this point.

> Keep in mind the exterior space, the upstairs and the tower are all optional spaces, they never have to be used if you don't want to use them. If you don't like them.. you simply don't have to use them.

Now that's an argument someone 12 year old would use to justify an addition. I won't be using them, I never asked for it so I won't be using them, don't worry about me. However, as it stands -- they are there(specifically the Outside) -- and IMO it consumes a lot of data and affects lot of performance. So I don't think I am comfortable with something consuming unnecessary resources from my PC and not adding anything significant and being a total performance hog. I will not take it quietly if you are messing performance with your updates. So there's that.
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> Try to understand that it is not the point of that addition to cause frustration but to provide better trophy organization. 

I never said it was added to cause frustration, but it is causing frustration. It's ok -- the entire Tavern has expanded space, moving them elsewhere wouldn't be a big issue. PRO-TIP -- there is an empty table right near the Crystal, look for it. The entire area near the Tavernkeep looks absolutely awful and congested though.
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> If anyone else feels that the Tavern Expansion is gimmicky.. understand that aside from storage, a shop and trading, the Tavern by its own concept is and has been a big gimmick since day one.

What else is there in the game currently to do in the Tavern other than sit with friends, manage inventory and/or trade? And the current Tavern does the job perfectly well. So why do we really need a performance hog of a Tavern(which mind you has its good parts) when it doesn't add absolutely anything to the table? Again minus a few parts which can easily be incorporated in the existing Tavern.
As for the current Tavern being a "gimmick", that's literally the first time I'm hearing someone say the current Tavern has been a "gimmick". I think you are just trying to throw it under the bus to get your Tavern passed. Which is such a sad thing coming from someone associated with the CDT becasue to me as a long time fan and player of this game that just shows you have played it quite less and have ZERO passion for the game to begin with, and I'm putting that mildly.
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> If it feels "rough around the edges" then I've done my job as an artist, it's a tavern in the woods.. not a palace with a golden throne. 

On the contrary you haven't done the job as an artist. The Tavern isn't polished enough, not optimized enough and that's supposed to be your job. Whether or not the Tavern "is in the woods" is just a lame and childish excuse to justify your shortcomings. Doesn't work like that buddy. You either make things 100% working or don't push it. You want the players to "not hug the walls", how about you make the walls more polished so they don't obstruct the players? Why should the player suffer, compromise and adjust becasue you haven't done your job well? Extremely odd excuse to justify something that is not 100%. Yes I do want it to be a palace with a golden throne. Is it hard for you?
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Summing it up, I think you take things a bit too personally, which right away is a bad trait for an artist -- becasue that shows you can barely accept criticism. I will go a step further than that and say you have a pretty bloated ego and your post very well shows it. And what else your entire attitude shows is that you sound like you are doing people a rather huge favor by adding this Tavern. You sounded the same in the thread that got closed when people asked for certain features and requested for the current Tavern to be available as an option to those who don't want the added space. So I won't quoting and or engaging with you anymore so that things don't get worse.

Good luck though.

[[51772,users]] 

You seem to be the one not taking things too well.  I loved this quote from you though: "You either make things 100% working or don't push it."  You obviously don't work in the software industry.  Hahahahaha.  This is a video game, not the space shuttle.  Too funny.

[[6018,users]]

I'm loving the new tavern.  Lots of room to lay out my sets, weapons etc without having my tavern look like something you'd see on Hoarders.  

I'm really hoping the theme switching stays.  That is an awesome feature.

Thanks for all the donated time and talent!

I too was very excited about the new tavern, i know many hours of personal time has gone into its preparation, time you say you will never get back...people volunteer their time without asking what they’ll get in return, knowing time never goes backwards, this is indicative of anything you agree to take on in your life. Now after a few years, the community finally gets to see it, test it out, and you get feedback that you probably knew was going to happen, some good, some not so good. Whenever someone puts that much time into something that is for a community, you have to know you're not going to please everyone. It doesn’t mean your effort and skill for creating this beautiful tavern/environment is not appreciated.  We appreciate you and your design.  Thank you for all your personal time you put into this project. Much love <3 goes out to you, because this was a huge undertaking. And we all know you’re putting this on your resume/cv.

I think most of the tavern improvements/expansions and outside environment are very beautiful. It is overly large and there are many really nice things about it. 

-All the space, the area for show casing your treasures, shop floor space, areas for testing towers, the gathering area for friends, the secret stash areas, the balcony areas are a nice touch, the outside is beautiful. 

-There is a hint of what is to come in the future, although is it necessary now? 

And there are some not so great things about it: 

-The ledge over the tavernkeep’s head is very annoying. I cannot enter the forge or shop easily, the super legendary’s do not fit, there is no jumping (personally the fun sucked out of that area).

  -The outside, while beautiful is not functional. Having one sign saying “drop items at your own risk”, why? This is a tavern, our tavern, not a map.  

-Loading times and frame rate drops, let’s get real, and stop making excuses, this is a problem. 

You saying "take it how it is, or we'll take it all away" is a very childish thing to say, unprofessional, and not worthy of that person to be on a committee dedicated to help "improving" a beloved game. Whining about lost time and effort, kicking your feet, and general tantrums makes your work seem "less" in every way. No, we don't have to just take it, because someone worked on it.   

We are all human, we are not perfect, what makes us human is our ability to reason and our ability to change/adapt. So let us have a discussion, this is what beta is for, testing and getting feedback. Yes, the public will get used to the tavern and probably end up liking some things disliked now. You have to give us the opportunity to discuss it.  

I really dislike the ledge over the tavernkeep! That will not change.

I also really dislike making a post like this, but i feel it has to be said.

Okay so now that I've stated that the things that are causing problems might be pulled completely, I'm suddenly unprofessional and egotistical. Okay. 

"Doesn't work like that buddy. You either make things 100% working or don't push it."

If you made the decisions for the team nothing would ever get to public beta for testing.. since that's what beta's are for. Funny how those silly beta tests work! 

"you sound like you are doing people a rather huge favor by adding this Tavern" 

Realllllly? Whats it called when someone who isn't getting paid does something for someone else for free? OH right.. it's called a "favor." Huh.. weird.  

 "you have a pretty bloated ego "

Yeap I can walk on water and fart rainbows. 

"Whining about lost time and effort" 

You know how you might get paid for doing your job? Even when its stupid stuff that might take a really long time.. but that part where you're still getting paid.. yeah. See I don't get paid. Anything. SO if I just casually remind you you're consuming something I spent my time on, my personal time on so you could have the oppotunnity to come here and complain about it.. and then you want a change for it?

 Instead of making a proactive suggestion like "Hey maybe you could sink the floor" or hey.. "maybe you could pull the bar out from under there a bit" or "I have an idea how to fix this! Here's what I did in the DDK as an example!"  Or maybe just admitting you're wrong about something because you don't know the tools.. "Okay so how does collision work and what's happened here?" Or maybe. just don't take my smart-ass comments seriously.. that might do you some good.  

 You see how your feedback has become just a smear job on the guy who.. well does all the custom level work for the team? Again, because again I've said you're probably not going to get what you think you're entitled to because SHOCK! There's better ways to do things besides come to a forum to criticize and not make any better suggestions or draw a concept or.. maybe pick up the tools and spend 5 years working your ass off to get where I am so you get to make the stuff for everyone else to come spit on on a whim and then get crucified for telling people it's not all going to go their way. 

Anymore [negative] posts from here will not be directed at me from here on. If it is, expect consequences. 

 If you really want to discuss the Tavern, then discuss it and leave me out of it, I've already made changes from the feedback and spent more time working out the performance problem in the only way ANYONE on the CDT can. Get this concept in mind: We can't update the games code that controls memory and other performance related systems.  It's not on our mandate to handle any of that, if we could it'd be fixed already, you could count on that. 

I am not sure what started the personal attacks but things like that derail threads.  We do value feedback, whether it is for a change or against.  However we just cant start attacking one another.  If it continues I will be forced to lock the thread.  A simple "I like it" or "dont like it" with reasons or suggestions attached would be great.  

As for the tavern itself, please understand that we, specifically Nexus, is working hard to optimize it.  He has tried to add things to it that were requested and all together it looks like there is a performance problem and many are getting hit hard by it.  We agree that it is a issue and are trying to find the proper solution.  There is definitely some limititations in the code that we dont control and are trying to work within that low ceiling.  Currently, it looks like loading all of the themes is likely the cause of this as nexus tried to explain earlier.  We will likely make the next build without the themes so that everyone can get a look at it then at the performance.

The ledge seems to be a problem for a couple of people.  Is it actually impeding players from accessing the tavern keep or is it just a personal preference and habit of jumping up there?

I don't want to get into this discussion.

I will just say that I am very happy with the tavern as it is in the beta right now. Also, apart from my loading time going from about 4 seconds to about 6 seconds I did not find any performance issues with the tavern. I was getting 60 fps wherever I was, with all my normal items on the floor. My PC is about 2-3 years old at this point.

I'm not sure if the technical limitations have been fully communicated here, which might be one of the reasons why the thread is starting to see a bit of heated salt.

Based on Nexus' testing and experiments, the tavern themes is what is causing the majority of performance issues. Since it has to load every theme into memory every time you enter the tavern, it starts crapping bricks. Normally this wouldn't be a huge issue, but with a platform backend that hasn't been updated in half a decade, we get to make do with what we have.

That being said, I know it was highly requested, but I want to set the expectation that themes have a solid chance of being removed. The tavern expansion itself is rather well optimized and does not contribute to the lag - it's all the theme props that are killing it. If by some miracle we're able to figure out a way to make themes work without lag, we will include them, but for now they'll likely be nixed.

Thank you to everyone who's provided feedback so far!

@ddace quote:

The ledge seems to be a problem for a couple of people.  Is it actually impeding players from accessing the tavern keep or is it just a personal preference and habit of jumping up there?

I happen to have items dropped in front, that were moved there by the changes made to the tavern and because someone dropped them there when this save file was used for the beta.  When I move up to the tavern keep, i need to move away from the items, which is normal, but when I jump on the counter the camera view goes to the floor on the top ledge and it just takes the right positioning to get the camera back.  Super legendary skins do not fit in there.  Their heads go through the floor of the ledge.  When i removed the items I could easily move in close to the counter and select the forge or shop, but when jumping on the counter, of course, the camera view changes to the floor of the ledge.  Yes, I have jumped on that counter a lot in my 3,895 hours of playing.  Made fun of the tavern keep in numerous ways, this is a game  after all!  ^.^