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Black Mamba

[Discussion] Balancing Wheel O' Fortuna, slightly. [Updated some stuff]

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Some parts/suggestions of the post are updated as of 28-06-2017, please take the time to read, AGAIN -- NOT A NERF SUGGESTION! :3 ALSO ALL NUMBERS / %-ages are MERELY SPACE-HOLDERS, they are up for discussion and NOT SET IN STONE, please don't hammer me about it! )

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So before I put down my suggestions and opinions please note --
THIS THREAD IN NO WAY OR FORM IS SUGGESTING ANY CHANGES TO THE THE EXISTING WHEEL O' FORTUNA MECHANICS AND HOW THE CURRENT ROLLS WORK.

Right then, I've had these ideas for quite a while just needed to think more on them.
In its current state, jester's Wheel O' Fortuna can be(or rather is) a very OP ability, especially in the hands of experienced players. However, there are not many penalties for missing rolls or for mismatches. Which happens quite often even with the most experienced players.

So what I propose is -- add rolls that have a negative effect upon rolling or misfiring.

As it stands we really have only a couple of rolls that can have a adverse effect on a run, namely -- Golden Enemies & Buff Enemies. Apart from these two, the rest negative rolls namely -- Disable Repair, Downgrade Nearby Tower(actually comes in handy at times) aren't even worth mentioning as "negative effect" rolls.


Now, compared these to the "positive effect" rolls we have, namely -- Heal All, Damage All, Kill %, Slowdown Time, Debuff Enemies, Buff Players, Stun Enemies & Upgrade Tower. We can easily see the imbalance in the total number of positive rolls versus negative rolls, there is hardly any penalty for missing the rolls.
Moreover, the negative rolls aren't much fun or penalizing to begin with apart from Golden Enemies. So if you even wanted to have some added fun in your game the only thing you get to do is roll Golden Enemies.


So, these are the few additional negative effect rolls I propose --

  • Damage All Players:
    Potion - Potion - Sword.
    As a penalty for misfiring Heal All. Acts similar to the King's Game "Ouch!".
    The actual damage % I'll will keep open for debate, but I suggest it not scaling like the "Damage All" roll with a cap at 40 or 45% damage or current HP to avoid griefing, so that 2/3 griefers can't spoil a game intentionally for someone. Works in Assault Maps.

  • Damage All Towers:
    Sword - Sword - Goblin.
    As a penalty for misfiring Damage All. Acts similar to the above suggested.
    The only change would be -- this affects minions & towers and Physical beams, excluding Auras, (Remaining)Beams and Traps. Doesn't work in Assault Maps, obviously.

  • Disable Abilities:
    Crystal - Crystal - Mana Token.
    As a penalty for missing Buff Players. Works in the same way as Disable Repair -- only this time, it disables abilities for a short while(similar to Disable Repair's time, whatever it is).
    Also any active ability is disabled soon as this is rolled. Works in Assault Maps.

  • Heal All Enemies:
    Potion - Potion - Goblin.
    Not added as penalty for anything, just an intentional negative roll, or perhaps for being too quick on the Heal All Players roll. Works similar to the Heal all Players roll. So it caps at 75% heal.
    Doesn't affect Bosses. Doesn't work in Assault Maps. 
    NEW -- AND FOR BALANCE PURPOSES doesn't heal Harbingers / Djinns / Copters / Golden Enemies, and of course Bosses.

  • Damage Crystal:
    Crystal - Goblin - Sword.
    Not added as penalty for anything, just an intentional negative roll. Damages the Crystal based on % much like Damage All.
    Caps at lets say 10 or 15% for now. So each roll does 10 or 15% damage of the Crystal's current health. Doesn't work in Assault Maps, obviously.


    ^ Retracted after much thinking and asking around. Doesn't make sense to penalize a perfect run for 1 miss. Asked more people in-game, wasn't quite as popular opinion as I thought it might me.

  • Suicide Bomb (chance based):
    Any other mismatch.
    As a penalty for being a bad roller and missing any combination, be it positive or negative!
    Kill yourself with a spectacular explosion damaging everything in your vicinity -- enemies, towers, players & crystals. Caps at 40% AoE Damage, acts like proximity mines so the further something is away from the explosion source, i.e. YOU, the less damage they take. Doesn't blast instantly and gives you 2 secs(or less) time to move away or into your defenses or enemies whatever you like!
    Based a pre determined chance, so like every 6 out of 10 rolls could be this roll, not always, so this gives it a huge element of surprise.
    Damage AoE doesn't affect Bosses(should it?). Works in Assault Maps, yes please!
    (PS: This was/is a joke suggestion.)


    ^ Retracted becasue not fair to keep a Hero ability as purely chance based. Also a significant deterrence from using Wheel Rolling. Asked more people in-game, wasn't a popular opinion, but people said it was funny. :'3

  • Stun Players (Suggested by Middo):
    <no combination yet> or Mana Token - Mana Token - Potion.
    Works in the same as Stun Enemies, only this time it affects players. Currently 2 options:
    -- Stun Players with 10 secs of time, you can't move or do anything.
    -- Stun Players with 5 secs of time, you can't move or do anything, and take 15-20% more damage.

    We can discuss on the stun time, I personally prefer the second option with less Stun time but more damage taken from all sources.

  • <saved for more suggestions>

All the numbers and %-age points suggested in the main post and elsewhere in the thread are at ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM CAP/LIMIT of the Wheel O' Fortuna ability. Which, as of now, caps at 3726 skill points.
Therefore, at first glance, the figures in this thread may seem to be a bit "unfair for noobs", but please understand that the figures being suggested are at MAXIMUM POSSIBLE and will only be lower for people that don't have their WoF ability capped out.
I also know that the WoF Scales rapidly in the beginning for the Heal All and Damage All rolls. Hence, as an added measure to keep things fair at low-levels, I'd suggest the scaling for the negative effect % based rolls to be scaled rapidly towards the cap(end) rather than scaling rapidly when the WoF is at low stats.


So yea, constructive criticisms and additional ideas for rolls are always welcome! If you have an additional roll suggestion to add, please include a combination you'd prefer for it. Ideally there should be some mismatched combinations left for just mismatches i.e. no effect rolls as well.

Also, I know some of these rolls suggested can be tools for mass griefing, but really -- how many griefers are even there in the game atm? Plus the option to kick is always there. I'm not fond of "griefers & hackers will spoil XYZ thing so we shouldn't have nice things" argument, please avoid that!

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I am actually a pretty big fan of this. I think that the complete lack of real drawbacks with the roll is just silly for how strong it can be (two jesters literally clearing the map with good AB2 and timing). Although I think the damaging crystal health ability shouldn't be a thing. I think it has too much of a potential disadvantage for just an unfortunate roll. I like the idea of doing light damage upon landing a missroll, but to do significant damage to a crystal seems a little too harsh. I understand that it would be a very uncommon roll, but the potential is a little extreme in my opinion. I also am not a huge fan of the suicide roll. But other than that great suggestions. 

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Good idea(s) Mambo.  I like it too!  How about Stun ALL players? say 10 seconds, stuck.  That could be another negative(and painful)  effect to consider.  Keep up the good work!

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@middo quote:

Good idea(s) Mambo.  I like it too!  How about Stun ALL players? say 10 seconds, stuck.  That could be another negative(and painful)  effect to consider.  Keep up the good work!

I like that idea a lot. Although, 10 seconds is a really long time to be defenseless. 3-5 seconds may be more reasonable. 10 seconds is like "dying to a dark elf/kobald" period of time.

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I too think that the Crystal damage is the weakest of my suggestions. Perhaps we can discuss the amount of damage that particular roll does to the crystal. I'd like to think at max cap it does at least 10% of the current Crystal HP, so it would still take quite a few rolls to destroy the crystal. Pus you don't get the bonus for no crystal damage.

Although if 10 to 15% feels high we can certainly discuss about it how much damage the crystal can take! Maybe 10% at the most with 3726 points in the Wheel ability.
As for the suicide bomb, its a joke suggestion, so far. But if more people like it then we can possibly consider it! :-)


Since Middo and I have discussed on the Stun Players, I'd like to add that along with Stun, if we were to reduce the time then have the players take some more damage.

So either of these two -- 

  • Stun Players with 10 secs of time, you can't move or do anything.
  • Stun Players with 5 secs of time, you can't move or do anything, and take 15-20% more damage.

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Updated the "Kill Yourself" roll to a "Suicide Bomb" and it rolls based on chance with a short 2 second timer before you explode.

So, for now lets say every 6 out of 10 rolls could be this roll, not always, so this gives it a huge element of surprise.

We can discuss on the actual chance and bomb timer itself.

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Haha, "slightly!"  More accurate title: "Let's nerf wheel, HARD."

Please no on the "suicide bomb" idea.  Can you imagine Jester as a noob, or as someone with a low frame rate (since wheel gets harder the lower your FPS is), dealing with your character dying when you miss wheel?  And not just dying, but possibly blowing up your defenses with you?  They'd never use it again.

Please don't ruin wheel.

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Plane;
Title is fine. I take offense when you call it a "nerf", a "hard nerf" at that. Really now? Can we for once not associate "balancing" with "nerfing"? Please. Pisses me off that anytime in these forums something related to balancing or improving is suggested people are quick to run up and shout "nerf-nerf". Happened in the Accessory Drop Location Update thread as well, and people immedieately started shouting "nerf-nerf". Please don't do that, its not fair and it just drives people away from meaningful discussions. And the moment they read "nerf" they automatically assume its something 100% bad. monk_small.png Extremely unfair of you to label this as a "hard nerf".


Now, I dunno about others, but I roll wheel consistently with very little misses(1 in 7 at the most) with massive FPS drops, or at low FPS. Its not really hard to roll the wheel and perfect it. All you need to memorize is FIVE (5) simple elements of the wheel and know which one comes after what element. So once you do that, then its not that hard to roll the wheel, even under FPS drops and laggy situations. The only time I would miss is when not paying attention, or if the game decides to freeze for a second there, which happens rarely.


As for the Suicide Bomb wheel idea itself, I personally think it is a fun addition to the WoF & it fits in very well with the Jester's whole "randomness & surprise" theme and contains an element of surprise.
I can argue that a new player can simply not use the WoF if they rolled Golden Enemies quite a bit, coz at low level that can truly be a catalyst for a map wipe-out. So, are you really against an idea based on a very marginal AND hypothetical situation? Bit unfair when you say people won't use it based on one roll. Seriously? 0_o
Either way, if you would've read the main post, I do mention that this is "a joke suggestion unless people really like it". So don't worry about it! If enough people are in favour of it then I don't see why we should not have it, community decision afterall! And weren't you in favour of the "community" on the topic of "re-introducing Eggs"? So I hope you shouldn't be against this if there are enough people supporting it! :-)

And finally, I don't understand how this suggestion(assuming the whole thread) will be "ruining the wheel". Do you really think the wheel is "balanced" right now? There is no real penalty for missing or being bad at roll, currently. If there is penalty for missing and being bad it can mean 2 things -- A.) People can improve their rolls, which is good. or B.) They can choose not to roll it and use a easier/booster class, which is also good. :-D

Additionally, part from intentional griefing I don't see any harm in adding more negative effect rolls.
Griefing is something I did consider at length before finally putting down this thread. Played a a bit of public games recently(which you haven't since you quit). I told co-players about all the rolls & requested them to use rolls as much as they can(didn't mention which specifically). And I found ZERO griefers in my as many public runs(PI, CD, Sky City, etc.) and apart from a few players being initially bad at rolling they improved right away after being told the Wheel sequence(i.e. Crystal -> Goblin -> Sword -> Potion -> Mana Token -> repeat). So even the noobs improved right away. :-)


I still maintain its a fun roll, you just need to see the bigger picture and think out side the realm of "seriously beating a map 100%", try to have some "fun" with rolls and the game in general. ;-)

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Had another suggestion if people don't like the "Suicide Bomb" which was intended as a joke(non-serious) suggestion but it has grown on me the more I think about it!
Anyways, once again chance based -- upon misfiring, i.e. mismatch, there is a chance that any random player becomes the "Chicken" for 30 seconds.
If there are no players, the roller by default becomes the "Chicken", however if there are more than 1 players, then anyone including the roller can become the "Chicken" randomly. So if there are 4 Jesters, there is a chance that everyone can become a "Chicken". Of course this may not blend in well with the original chicken challenge as now every map can have the potential to be the chicken challenge, but oh well... it was a fun challenge!

(I still personally like the suicide blow up roll, it is spectacularly hilarious if you think outside the box and consider the element of surprise!)

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Once again to clear things up -- 

All the numbers and %-age points suggested in the main post and elsewhere in the thread are at ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM CAP/LIMIT of the Wheel O' Fortuna ability. Which, as of now, caps at 3726 skill points.
Therefore, at first glance, the figures in this thread may seem to be a bit "unfair for noobs", but please understand that the figures being suggested are at MAXIMUM POSSIBLE and will only be lower for people that don't have their WoF ability capped out.

I also know that the WoF Scales rapidly in the beginning for the Heal All and Damage All rolls.
Therefore as an added measure to keep things fair at low-levels, I'd suggest the scaling for the negative effect rolls to be spread out more rapidly towards the cap rather than scaling rapidly when the WoF is at low stats.

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Apart from damage crystal and suicide bomb I like mostly like these. Personally, I would make the penalty for any random combination (i.e. a miss) either some damage--either to yourself or to all--or losing all your mana, and not add new combinations. I feel like some of these would definitely discourage new players from trying the wheel at all, even more so than is happening now.


@mamba, what is the point of this proposal? I see 3 options why people would want this:

1. The WoF is OP and needs a nerf

2. The jester is supposed to be random, but the WoF is basically just positive

3. Can't think of it now but I definitely had 3

I sit in the first category. It sounds like you are as well. Why get upset by the word nerf? That is what your suggestion is, that doesn't make it a bad suggestion. When something is op, you nerf it, or boost other things to make them on par again (power creep...).


Also, Plane made a good point. It can be hard to roll properly with low framerate. Thankfully I don't get that all that often, only when I'm not the host on some specific maps, but others might. Now obviously a lot of things get harder with low frames, but from my experience, the most common character for a non-host is the jester. If we add consequences for failed wheels, this could actually impact quite a lot on how hard something like TL is as a group for newer players, or something like TL NMHCMM for experienced groups. I'm all about group play, and this should be taken into consideration.

For example, don't surround any combinations with 2 negative effects on either side. What I mean is, once you have 2 potions you want the final potion, if you click to early you get a negative effect, if you click too late you get a negative effect. I would avoid something like that. Makes it a little easier if you know what you're doing.

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I'm not against some slight rebalancing or increased penalties.  If you look at the existing penalties, none of them really do anything. For example, "disable repairs" is essentially the same as missing. Even if you want to repair right then and you can't, at worst you have to wait a few seconds until the effect ends.  The only real penalty at the moment is "golden enemies", and that won't make a big difference until the CDT re-buffs gold enemies (at which point wheel will have a real downside).

The suicide bomb thing is the hard nerf.  I didn't see that you called it a joke suggestion (was that in the post before?) and I was kind of alarmed to see that the post had 4 likes, so I wanted to speak up about it. 

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Poet -- I would actually sit in both the 2 points you mentioned, might lean more towards 2, however I do not agree with "nerf". And the definition of nerf is -- "a change to a game(or game-mechanic) that makes something less effective or less desirable". I'm not suggesting existing roll combinations to be made less effective, nor would they become less effective if additional negative effects are added to the combination. And in the gaming community in general, anytime someone sees "nerf", they automatically assume its a bad thing. Therefore I do have a right to get upset when people use the word loosely and overreact like that without really understanding what "nerf" means.

As for the FPS issue, I still don't know how you guys find it hard to roll the wheel under low FPS, I personally don't find it that hard, maybe its just me, but I've known people with lower FPS rolling the wheel consistently.
Are we really using the excuse of a rare & marginal event on a few maps to stay away from having better changes? And the only maps I think where FPS drops or low FPS are an issue in general would be -- Tinkerer's Lab(who even plays this anymore on pub), Pirate Invasion(again, hardly any pub games for this), Temple O' Love(negative rolls won't have much of an effect in this). Apart from these 3 maps I don't find myself facing FPS drops. Besides, Tinkerer's is a poorly optimized map anyways, so I find it odd that you have to use the excuse of ONE map on Survival to argue against penalty for mismatched rolls. WHICH LET ME REITERATE -- was and is a joke suggestion. Moreover you are yourself suggesting having penalties tied to "any mismatches", so its kind of contradictory to me when you bring up the point of missing the wheel under low FPS drops.

Also, you are putting forth your argument based on a hypothetical situation that newer players will be discouraged by this. Its based on imagination and not actual facts. Actually, in the same way -- I can use a counter-argument that new players will be encouraged even more to improve with their WoF skill if there are more negative rolls for missing. Currently, missing or being bad with the roll has no real penalty, and that has made people complacent with rolling, so in the same "hypothetical" way, I can argue that adding negative effect rolls will make them more careful with the roll and better.
;-)

Coming to the point you raised about "not surrounding any combinations with 2 negative effects on either side", yeah that is taken into consideration already to an extent. if you see the current combination suggestion nothing is "wrapping" any positive combination on either side. Of course, for the sake of this thread I've used combinations, but they are subject to change depending on what the community and the CDT thinks about the combinations.
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Plane -- Whatever, now you are backtracking. It was there in the main post since beginning. I only underlined it for people like you who wouldn't care to read it initially. Also if you check my 1st comment, I mention in response to Supahmo that its a joke suggestion there as well.
And what do you even mean with "I was kind of alarmed to see that the post had 4 likes"?

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I am actually for something like this, and it would add more consequences.  I have always wanted a way to stop the wheel myself (just like you can turn off hero boost), and maybe there could be a consequence for stopping the wheel as well, like, the only way to stop the wheel is to complete it or be struck by an enemy.  So why not add a consequence if we stop the wheel we loose hero hp, and of course we have the cool down timer?

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I'd have to say that is a fine idea as well. As someone who uses that "wheel stop" exploit without the countdown timer kicking in I'd say its a fine suggestion.
Although how I'd like to have it balanced out is -- when you hit the wheel you are immune to damage, hits or knock-backs and you can't exit the wheel from enemy damage. So unless you roll something, successfully or just a mismatch only then would you exit from the "wheel animation".
My reason for not including a countdown timer or health loss for exiting the wheel would be -- since most of the time you get hit by unintentional AoE damage from the Ogre Splash, it would be a bit harsh to penalize for unintentionally exiting the wheel.

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Just so we're clear, I do support adding some more negative effects to the WoF.

@Black Mamba quote:

And the definition of nerf is -- "a change to a game(or game-mechanic) that makes something less effective or less desirable"

When I currently press 3, I know that either I get my desired result, or nothing happens for the next 30s. If we change the wheel, when I press 3 I know that most likely I will get my result, but there is a chance--no matter how good you are--that I will get a negative result. Less desirable, and in the long term, less effective. By definition a nerf. But a nerf I can support. I don't know or care how the gaming community sees the word.

But back on topic.
I agree that low fps making the wheel hard to perform should not be an issue stopping anyone from either supporting or not supporting a change like this. However, it can be held in mind when making the finer choices, such as which effect goes where.

I only mentioned that hypothetical situation because I have heard newbs, more than once, say they did not use the wheel because they got gold enemies once. I do think its important to keep in mind how a change might work in the actual game with people playing it, not just the hypothetical optimal way its supposed to be done. In this case I think I made a good point.


@jemmajule quote:

I am actually for something like this, and it would add more consequences.  I have always wanted a way to stop the wheel myself (just like you can turn off hero boost), and maybe there could be a consequence for stopping the wheel as well, like, the only way to stop the wheel is to complete it or be struck by an enemy.  So why not add a consequence if we stop the wheel we loose hero hp, and of course we have the cool down timer?

Might just be me, I'm not quite following what you are saying :(

Do you mean introduce a way to cancel out of the wheel, say by pressing c, which instead of finishing a combination just puts you back to normal? How is that different from just misfiring?

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Fair enough about the FPS drops.
Umm, I've never had people tell me they would not use the Wheel becasue they rolled something bad. So what you are saying seems odd to me becasue I did a quite a few pub recently just for getting the general perception of players about the wheel with and without negative rolls. And I haven't had anyone complaining or suggesting that they would not use the WoF, regardless of negative rolls are added or not. The WoF is a skill/ability hardly based on luck and the player for 99.99% of the time is responsible for what gets rolled. And its not that hard to be consistently good at the roll. Which many people are and can become quickly skilled, at the WoF that is. Moreover there is no time-limit to roll, so you can take 10-15 seconds to roll successfully. I don't understand why you two are hell bent on firing from the shoulders of "new players" and suggesting they would be discouraged to use the WoF.

Once again -- the "chance based" suggestion was simply a joke. Mentioning this of the Nth time now. If you are basing your entire argument and calling this thread as a "nerf" based on a "joke suggestion", then you are being extremely unfair. Regardless of whether more negative combinations are added, the overall effectiveness of the wheel stays as it is becasue the current individual rolls aren't being touched. And as I mentioned before -- the WoF is a skill/ability hardly based on luck and the player for 99.99% of the time is responsible for what gets rolled, so you can simply choose not to roll the negative ones(which let me say once again is not that hard). So I request you to please stop calling this as a nerf. Thanks.


I think what Jemma meant is that when you start the wheel, and say if you press the wrong combination right away with 1 or 2 rolls left, then if you wait for a couple of seconds to get hit from an enemy you can simply get out of the wheel without any countdown and try to re-roll. I use that "wheel exit" quite a bit to get out of a initially missed roll. So what she seems to proposing(if I'm not mistaken) is that if you exit the wheel without rolling anything, you will lose health and add a countdown.

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@ThePoet424 quote:


@jemmajule quote:

I am actually for something like this, and it would add more consequences.  I have always wanted a way to stop the wheel myself (just like you can turn off hero boost), and maybe there could be a consequence for stopping the wheel as well, like, the only way to stop the wheel is to complete it or be struck by an enemy.  So why not add a consequence if we stop the wheel we loose hero hp, and of course we have the cool down timer?

Might just be me, I'm not quite following what you are saying :(

Do you mean introduce a way to cancel out of the wheel, say by pressing c, which instead of finishing a combination just puts you back to normal? How is that different from just misfiring?

I mean, currently if you press your WoF hotkey, the only way to get out of it is to complete the wheel or get struck by an enemy.  I propose, if you press your WoF hotkey and want to get out of it or stop the wheel, you can press your WoF hotkey a 2nd time only you pay the penalty of loss of HP and the cool down timer starts, as if you were struck by an enemy only the timer will start.  After reading Mambo's reply though, I think just loss of HP would be a better option.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Umm, I've never had people tell me they would not use the Wheel becasue they rolled something bad.

Great. It looks like you had different experiences. It is possible that it won't be an issue at all.


@jemmajule :I propose, if you press your WoF hotkey and want to get out of it or stop the wheel, you can press your WoF hotkey a 2nd time only you pay the penalty of loss of HP and the cool down timer starts, as if you were struck by an enemy only the timer will start.  After reading Mambo's reply though, I think just loss of HP would be a better option.

I still don't see how that is different from just misfiring the wheel, you get the same results for ~1-2sec more waiting. Unless, as you seemed to be alluding to, the countdown does NOT start? That seems to me a bad idea, allowing you to retry an already considered OP ability as many times as you want (or your health allows).


-----------------------------ASIDE------------------------------

@mamba

Lets say, for the sake of argument, one rolls correctly with a rate of 0.99 and misses the last one with a rate of 0.01; this can be generalised to any epsilon. Introducing any negative effects for missing the last tumbler on the WoF means adding negative effects to 0.01 off all rolls one does. THIS IS OBJECTIVELY A WORSE OUTCOME. It does not depend on chance based outcomes, the reality is one just cannot roll the wheel with 100% accuracy all the time in all states of tiredness and lag. For some real life numbers, in the few thousand hours I've played DD, the times I've tried to heal all and gotten slow down time are in the tens, if not over 100. And I usually don't bother with heal all. If a negative effect is intruduced for missing the last tumbler for damage all, say, I guarantee I personally will mess up sometime, mostly when tired or not really into whatever I'm doing. I assume it is the for everyone. And even if it is not, it is still a nerf if this change has no affect on everyone else, but negatively affects one player, as I am telling you it will.

Once again, being a nerf is not a bad thing. I support this nerf.

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Would be against anything with griefing possibilities: 

- Crystal damage: at 10 - 15% a rogue jester could deliberately kill a survival run in a single wave (esp if a crystal already took damage; eg my KG build for some reason gets top crystal damage in the first wave but is fine afterwards) If you want to keep it, have it do 1 damage to the crystal; enough to prevent the no crystal damage bonus but not enough to lose a map on purpose.

- Stunning players: just no.  

- Damaging players: again probably a no; perhaps change to damage self.

You could perhaps add a 'cant hold mana' -ve effect, targets the jester that rolled it they drop all mana they currently have and can't pick up more. Any gained by other means eg genie is instantly dropped as well. Should last a reasonable time eg 30 secs

----------------

An entirely different way to nerf the Wof would be to speed up the spin speed with increase stat points in wof

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Again, arguing based on "imaginary" & "hypothetical" situations that "griefers" would spoil games for others, same as the stale and over-used "hackers will spoil the game" argument. How many griefers do you think are really there in this game actively looking to spoil a game for someone?
Anyways, as I have said before -- numbers are at their absolute max, i.e. at 3726 points, and are up for discussion. I've only put them there for space-fillers, they are by no means final. Also, majority of the existing players don't even have a capping wheel. Becasue even without capping wheel its already good enough for healing & damaging. So most of these numbers are suggested to be with stat point of 3726 or above, whereas the reality is people don't go over 2k to 2.5k in Jester AB2. Apart from a few experienced players that may have dedicated WoF esters, majority of the community just has 1 or 2 Jesters.

Please elaborate why you think "Damage Players" & "Stun Players" shouldn't be a thing.

Mana related negative effects are about as pointless as the "disable repair" or "downgrade". Having no mana serves the same purpose as disable repair with the added minor inconvenience of not being able to heal yourself for 30secs. Given the Genie Swirl Proc in tandem with Lupine Bows, Mana has ceased to be an issue in combat waves in this game.

We are not talking about "nerfing" the WoF. That has never been on the agenda of this thread. Don't derail with those suggestions! Thanks!

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Poet & Plane -- This is what happens when you shout "nerf-nerf" at the top of your voice -- people start getting real ideas. My suggestion was simple -- adding negative effects based on combinations and not touching the WoF and its existing mechanics one bit. Now we have one suggestion already brought in to increase the spin-up time, i.e. straight up change in the core WoF mechanic, which now most will really feel as a "nerf"(rightfully so). Therefore people might assume this thread is about "changing the wheel mechanics". Which obviously was not the point of this thread as its mentioned in old in the very beginning of this thread! So yea, thanks for that, both of you! :-) #Facepalm.

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The only negative rolls I would be against are damage all towers, damage crystal and suicide bomb. Being someone with constantly bad fps ingame, I misroll slightly more frequently than I'd like.

I feel like damage all towers and damage crystal could easily be used to (I know you won't like this paragraph) grief in games, even with those % (especially damage crystal). 10 rolls at 10% is still only a bit over 6 minutes counting for time to actually get the combination. Even kicking after say the 3rd roll when you realise they are literally trolling, that is still almost 1/3 of the crystal health gone, with one troll to account for it (which can be disastrous in lower level pub games where the defences may not be optimal. Even if the % is low at that level, any amount of health can mean the difference between passing and having to do the map again). As you said there aren't too many trolls anymore, but you can't be too careful. There isn't a positive roll for healing the crystal, so why should there be a negative one?

Damage all towers may not be too bad depending on the %, so I could let that slide even if I dislike it.

Suicide bomb. I tend to try to get to a place where its harder for me to get hit in maps when I try to roll, as I can take a while to get the roll I want due to my bad fps. Suicide bomb could completely ruin a run if someone like me missed say the first slot and is unable to cancel the wheel due to being in a safe position, and dying in some maps can prove detrimental to the run. Even if the suggestion to cancel wheel by pressing the hotkey again was implemented, I would still dislike this roll a lot, considering it would be very easy to get even with the chance. I feel this game has enough chance already though! If this misroll was changed to a specific combination (and not chance based) I would support implementing it though, because I do agree that the concept sounds quite funny (and depending on the damage could be used in some situations as a last resort).

I wouldn't mind having the other rolls implemented, although I would like to remind that the Wheel o' Fortuna is a HERO ability, not a random occurrence; the rolls should be mainly biased towards assisting the player, instead of punishing them for using an ability.

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Great post Inferno! Apparently I had totally forgotten about this thread! Well, round 2 for discussions!

I may have moderated my stand on a lot of rolls now after asking around a LOT regarding adverse effects of low FPS on rolling! Some of the negative rolls may become a deterrence to players. So please re-read the OP(updated it a bit before posting this)

I do 100% agree on the point you make:

There isn't a positive roll for healing the crystal, so why should there be a negative one?

I didn't really think of it while making the suggestion. You hit it right on the spot! 

Damage all towers may not be too bad depending on the %, so I could let that slide even if I dislike it.

Yes, the current numbers whatever I've given are SIMPLY PLACEHOLDERS, the actual numbers may and should(in some cases) vary from those. I'm in favour of keeping them low so that people can't intentionally grief. I'm also of firm belief that there aren't really that many griefers in this game. Many hackers, but very few, if not, barely any griefers. Which has been a blessing and it is something I hope doesn't change. DD is the best, if not, one of the best online multiplayer communities, ever, always has been. 

I wouldn't mind having the other rolls implemented, although I would like to remind that the Wheel o' Fortuna is a HERO ability, not a random occurrence; the rolls should be mainly biased towards assisting the player, instead of punishing them for using an ability.

Fair point, I have now retracted the "chance based" suggestion of Suicide Bomb, which was, objectively funny, but I can see how it could be detrimental to people since based on pure chance. And also retracted the other Crystal Damage one as it's not fair to penalize a perfect run. Although on the flipside, someone looking to do the godawful "By the Skin of Your Teeth" achievement might have found it useful! :P

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I think that just because there aren't many griefers doesn't mean that we should ignore the argument that it can be used for griefing. I do really like the idea of nefring the wheel a little bit with some negative consequences. I am not a huge fan of the idea of random percentage negative rolls. I think it should be a negative effect based on a bad roll. 

I think a good idea would be to have rolls do the opposite effect if you miss-roll them. If you try and roll a heal and you miss it should damage players. If you try and roll damage all it should heal enemies, ect. I don't think there should be a roll to damage towers in any way. I would be ok with a roll un-upgrading a tower though, that would be interesting.

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Guys, its not a nerf, use a better word please! :(
There's no random percentage rolls? The ones which were there(only 1) has been retraced since it wasn't fair, in terms of game-play, along with any extreme grief-worthy rolls(crystal damage). On topic of griefers, would you support the removal of Repair Defense, Buff Enemies, Goldenify Enemies? I can grief pretty hard with those. :-) Griefers can grief even without rolls, just so you know. Plus there's the option to kick people already, so...

As for the the miss-rolls doing opposite effects, well, those will still have to be mapped to a combination to trigger as there isn't any inherent way that the game can guess what roll someone was intending to execute, but missed. Hence this thread, literally.

Un-upgrade towers roll already exists, although it only downgrades by 1 level, I think that should be at least 3 levels or completely, doesn't matter becasue again, how hard is it to grab mana in this game, especially as Jester. :D

I don't think there should be a roll to damage towers in any way.

And why do you not think that should not be a thing? You didn't say that in your earlier post(in this thread) though, you were all praises in that(barring damage crystal thing, which I've now retracted)! :3 But ok, do suggest why you'd be against damage towers/minions rolls.

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