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Fozzie

Suggested changes to Vipers Bite and Purge Evil

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There is meta i.e. A build or builds that work due to synergy where placement and optimisation is required.

PDT isn't a meta it's a "slap em anywhere doesn't matter how good they are and gg" how is that good for the game.

Defend it all you want Soulstiger

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Love the thread and some of the comments about how different combinations of towers should be more viable, but with that said, let's make sure it remains constructive here.  I think we have some upcoming changes to the game that will deliver some of the desires and concerns that you guys have posted in this thread.  I know I always say "SOON TM"  but we WILL be telling you guys soon XD

@Nefhith quote:

To people complaining (and those not complaining), watch this video, you might like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

I love the guys that make Extra Credits.

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@gigazelle quote:

stuff

Fozzie kinda replied what I wanted to say here:

@Fozzie quote:

There is meta i.e. A build or builds that work due to synergy where placement and optimisation is required.

PDT isn't a meta it's a "slap em anywhere doesn't matter how good they are and gg" how is that good for the game.

You still need good stats on all the things you mentioned for them to work. I remember my first time trying king's game on nmhc with good-ish mythical gear and doing pretty much what you say, and still getting smashed. Came back with decent trans gear (4k-ish stats, had an ultimate piece around which gave a huge boost with the set) and got through the map as if is was normal difficulty.

In DD1 you can exploit as much as you want, but it you don't have in mind sharkens, genies, ninja spiders, or these stupid assassins insta-killing your undergeared char, you won't do much. Even with good stuff.

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@Elandrian quote:

Love the thread and some of the comments about how different combinations of towers should be more viable, but with that said, let's make sure it remains constructive here.  I think we have some upcoming changes to the game that will deliver some of the desires and concerns that you guys have posted in this thread.  I know I always say "SOON TM"  but we WILL be telling you guys soon XD

@Nefhith quote:

To people complaining (and those not complaining), watch this video, you might like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

I love the guys that make Extra Credits.

As long as the goal is to make all towers viable, and the challenge is finding a combination that works for you without stripping the fun ideas from the game, that's fine.

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@gigazelle quote:

 Oh, and fozzie while I do consider the lightning tower to be very powerful, I'd classify it in the same group as DD2's SA - quite powerful, maybe just a tad too much, but a couple small tweaks would bring it back in line with the other defenses. 

Based on what? green puffs and monsters dying at the same time? A chain reaction of a small explosion is always going to increase the chances of monsters dying at the same time, just like with Lightning Aura monsters die at generally the same time due to everything being hit equally. Even more so at the moment due to a bug preventing crits.

I have not seen a single number or peace of evidence suggesting that Purge Evil is overpowered. All I have seen is my videos proving time after time that they have a decent impact in rounds 1-3, and little to no impact in rounds 4-7. With some towers they have ZERO impact in ANY round. Sure an argument can be made that "well SA's don't need upgrading" but the same argument can be made in retort that "well they and more importantly Purge Evil don't scale". 


@gigazelle quote:

zimmermann I appreciate the note about splody harpoons - I have pretty well geared squire from way back when, so I'll give him a shot.

The point I was making was not about Splody Harpoons being OP, it was about blaming splody harpoons because buff/boost harpoons wrecked faces! it was about showing another knee jerk reaction to an explosion of numbers and graphical explosion puffs on the screen.

I honestly cannot say what is making harpoons so strong in that scenario I gave you, it could be the passive 35% slow from SA giving them that extra time to mow down enemies, it could be the fact they pierce 9 targets with a 30% chance of doing full damage to each pierced target, or it could be the 220% Splody harpoon passive. Or it could be stacking boost aura and buff beam together combined with harpoons hitting hard and piecing 9 targets (my personal opinion). But its all hyperbole!

But without real numbers no one can know, likewise, without real numbers or proof of concept through repeating dungeons with and without a passive/sphere/tower synergy one cannot know. 

Anyway I really have said everything now, and I am just repeating myself again. I just wanted you to know exactly why I said what I said about Splody Harpoons.

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And I fully understand what you're saying - Purge Evil by itself is absolutely nothing special; earlier waves it's definitely a boon (but by no means required), and becomes more and more irrelevant as enemy health increases each wave. If we are looking at that facet alone, I would say that the purge evil passive is rather underpowered.

But purge evil is not the only component to Serenity Auras.

The whole package of serenity auras of everything you get in them:

  • Anyone who runs DPS never has to worry about stopping and healing.
  • Anyone who runs DPS gets a straight-up 25% damage increase, which is not insignificant.
  • Anyone who runs DPS gets a percentage damage reduction.
  • Enemies are slowed inside the aura.
  • The tower does not need to be upgraded to take advantage of all of its perks, allowing you to reach higher tiers on your other towers.
  • And you get all of this for only 20DU.

The combined perks of the serenity aura are just too good to pass up considering their initial green mana cost of 20 and that's literally it. While the purge evil damage output alone is quite underpowered, toss in all the other advantages you get with it, and it becomes quite obvious why we see it in nearly every build. If it wasn't too good to pass up, less people would be using it.

If you do not agree that serenity auras as a whole is not among the most valuable 20DU spent, then we can simply agree to disagree. I will however concede to your point that the purge evil passive by itself is fine where it's at. I would say that another component of the SA needs adjusting, perhaps the DU cost to make players think twice about whether they truly need all the advantages the SA offers.

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[[31834,users]] remove Purge Evil and ask yourself, do I want to waste 20 DU on a 35% slow at best, 10% damage reduction that on your tanky/melee heroes is not noticed, and on your ranged dps doesnt prevent a one shot, yes the passive heal is nice.. for those who were not one shot.  25% increase to damage is only an option when you need hero dps, otherwise for those of us that use blockades, its never an option.

SA would become a tool for just DPS burst fights, where you would place one down for the 25% extra damage (which trees now also do, in a slightly different form) and for tanking fights for healing.

The slow is so insignificant that anyone with ground defenses (defenses that need slows the most) would most likely chose a Frostbite tower every time over it due to the synergistic effects of a better slow, a freeze and frosty power.

SA does many things BADLY apart from the heal and 25% damage boost which is not always an option. it is used for one reason: Purge Evil.

Purge evil, as I have already stated, is by no means overpowered (given the state of other towers) and therefore I go back to my original point that SA is just not powerful enough to claim it needs a nerf.

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Let's not forget that serenity aura's damage boost doesn't apply to abilities, which is what actually deals the most damage. Regular hero damage is "ok" in comparison.

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@Fozzie quote:

There is meta i.e. A build or builds that work due to synergy where placement and optimisation is required.

PDT isn't a meta it's a "slap em anywhere doesn't matter how good they are and gg" how is that good for the game.

Defend it all you want Soulstiger

Wasn't defending PDT, lmao. But, good attempt at reading comprehension, I suppose.

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Look like the siege tank will make PDT only spam less of an issue.

Vipers Bite still needs tweaking down heavily and IMO SA also needs tweaking down.

Any chaining effects need to be seriously looked at and their effect on the game.

Thanks for all the discussion even Soulstiger's

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