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PDTs are the game's best example of synergy, more like these please


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Synergy is more than the obvious combination of two towers to produce a canned effect (like oil+fire=burning, yawn).

Check out the cool stuff happening with the following setup:

  1. PDT applies poison damage over time
  2. Poison damage kills enemy
  3. Legendary bow causes enemy to explode, poisoning other enemies
  4. Legendary polearm causes serenity aura to also explode enemies (double explosion) thereby increasing chance of #2/3
  5. Boost aura improves offense and defense of the build
  6. Blockade defends the build
  7. Frost tower keeps enemies away from the build and inside of the Serenity Aura for longer increasing chance of #4

That's a lot of special effects happening in a build, it's extremely effective, and it's fun to watch the chain reactions.  This should be more common, and should be the benchmark for which other towers are balanced.  This is probably the first build that has felt right in the time I've played DD2.


I'd like to see more of this.  Instead of synergy just being "tower A + tower B causes a tiny bit of bonus damage" how about more of these special effects, explosions, massive stuns/freezes, confusion (mobs attacking eachother), etc.

It's fun when a synergy has more than two inputs.  It makes a complex build, and a complex gearing process, feel more rewarding.  There's nothing worse than being rewarded for hours/days/weeks of work with mediocrity, so, in my opinion...kudos for thinking outside the box with PDT (I really enjoy it), and I'm looking forward to more builds with heavy synergy like this one.



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You could save yourself a lot of time and not bother with frosties or walls. I do enjoy synergies but the toxic shock needs reworked(nerfed) pretty bad.

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@MisfitAth quote:

You could save yourself a lot of time and not bother with frosties or walls. I do enjoy synergies but the toxic shock needs reworked(nerfed) pretty bad.

It's not that toxic shock should be redone, perhaps tweaked (such as reduce the explosive power and/or radius) but not redone.  There are many ways to do the maps without PDTs if you have the right heroes leveled and geared up.  I am not disagreeing that the "only use PDT" for a lot of players makes it... undesirable, but it doesn't need to be out right taken away.

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Yeah, definitely there needs to be more items which actually change the game and define builds which otherwise don't work without those items.


Trendy realise that DD2 is all about the loot. It's a loot-orientated game, but look at the loot we have. 3 unique weapons for just the 4 base classes, 1 unique set (Storm), and *everything else* is entirely generic. Every piece of armour beyond the Storm set is a generic. Every weapon outside of the few uniques for only the 4 base classes, are generic. Further to that, they barely change of enhance gameplay, apart from Toxic Shock and Internal Combuster which massively change the game, and make those towers a staple.


Look at something like Diablo 3. I went through their website and counted just legendary items:

Axe - 16
Dagger - 9
Mace - 22
Spears - 5
Swords - 33
Ceremonial - 12
Fist - 14
Flail - 15
Mighty - 15
Polearms - 5
Staves - 17
Diabo - 11
Bow - 13
Crossbow - 10
Hand Crossbow - 11
Wand - 11
Shields - 23
Mojo - 10
Orbs - 11
Quiver - 11

Head - 37
Shoulder - 10
Chest - 15
Wrist - 31
Hands - 9
Waist - 42
Legs - 8
Feet - 11
Amulets - 24
Rings - 36


Total Legendaries: 497

Not every single one of those items changes any abilities, but most of them do, and to a decent degree. They change the skills you use, and how you play the game. Also consider that there are unique crafted items not included there, and there are around 40 sets (why some armour slots have low item count, add about 30 to them) which have a *much* bigger impact on abilities, which completely change the way the game is played. I don't play PoE so I can't give specific numbers there, but I'm sure it's going to be the same kind of deal.


Right now DD2 is a loot-based game, with the most boring loot you can imagine, because it's all purely generic. Every single piece is a stat stick which just doesn't affect the game in any real way besides "more damage, more health" by a small factor. 3% more damage and 2% range WOOHOO!!!, meanwhile Diablo 3 is over there with sets boosting abilities' damage by 1500% and completely changing the way they work.


Toxic Shock and Internal Combuster are good examples of items which change up the game and the gameplay. PDT is not *that* good compared to other towers without Toxic Shock. You cannot hold a lane without Toxic Shock the same way you can with it. It entirely changes the way you play and how you build, and introduces cool new things, like the mobs exploding. One of the main reasons these weapons are so "op" is simply because there's no other competition out there. Instead of nerfing those 2 weapons back down to generic levels with everything else, and essentially remove all the impact they have, I want to see much more unique pieces of loot for other classes, that when I get, completely change the kinds of towers I put down and how I use them.


internal Combuster is a good example of that. It completely changes the way Serenity Auras are used. Without it, you just put 1 down or never use them at all, for some healing if you're doing melee DPS and maybe a damage boost if needed. It's entirely hero-focused. With Internal Combuster, you're putting 1 down in each lane and using them as a mob-focused defence rather than hero-focused one. That's cool, that's unique. A tower goes from not being that useful, and only used in X way, to being super useful and used in Y way. My gameplay is changed by the loot I pick up, which is how a loot-based game should be, rather than the exact same build from Normal Campaign to NM4 incursions just with higher numbers.


We need way more unique items which actually change up gameplay, and which towers are viable. Much much more of it. 1 unique set of armour is really tragic.

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None of what OP describes is synergy. It's augmentation and cooperation, but not synergy.

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@Folly quote:

None of what OP describes is synergy. It's augmentation and cooperation, but not synergy.

It also applies to nearly every defense in the game :)

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But slows are a synergy with poison.. the longer you keep something slowed or not moving the more damage it takes from poison... so yes it is 8)

if you bunch up a group of enemies because they are slowed instead of streaming in.. the explosion then is part of that synergy no slow means they'd be spread out..

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@LJMjollnir quote:

But slows are a synergy with poison.. the longer you keep something slowed or not moving the more damage it takes from poison... so yes it is 8)

if you bunch up a group of enemies because they are slowed instead of streaming in.. the explosion then is part of that synergy no slow means they'd be spread out..

The longer you keep something frozen or the slower it walks the longer it gets shot at or exploded by any other towers/traps in the range as well.

PDT does all of its dmg through the poison dot dmg x poison rate.

Other towers do all of their dmg through their fire rate x dmg. Its the same thing just applied differently. The slow benefits both equally.

The major difference is that PDT dmg is about 2x higher and about 2x faster + gets spread across half the map with every explosion. 

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To be honest though, trolling or not, I think the fact that  in a hypothetical situation where PDTs were nerfed and a different direct damage projectile tower was better, you could replace "PDT" in there with just about any tower and it wouldn't change things very much.


It would take something awfully weird to change the meta from "Damage tower + boosters + Serenity" (and maybe protons), in part because synergizing using boosters and serenity is the entire point of those towers in the first place.


Poison Tower's "weakness" is supposed to be that poison doesn't stack so putting more than one in a lane is pointless.  In that regards, maybe they should just half it's DU cost and then halve it's damage, making it so that it's still an awesome use of 20 DU but it's not powerful enough to hold lanes by itself any more.  Then the meta at least becomes slightly more complicated in that it changes to "Damage tower + Poison Tower + boosters + Serenity" (and maybe protons)

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@Pegazul quote:


@LJMjollnir quote:

if you bunch up a group of enemies because they are slowed instead of streaming in.. the explosion then is part of that synergy no slow means they'd be spread out..

The longer you keep something frozen or the slower it walks the longer it gets shot at or exploded by any other towers/traps in the range as well.

PDT does all of its dmg through the poison dot dmg x poison rate.

Other towers do all of their dmg through their fire rate x dmg. Its the same thing just applied differently. The slow benefits both equally.

But you missed my second point.. the slow helps group the enemies up so that poison explosion is more effective in the first place 8)

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The issue I see with PDTs is that maps are too small to have poison stuff be useful (DoT slowly eating enemies away), but if you give it more power to compensate for that, they become too powerful. I'ts a really hard to balance one.

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This is actual synergy guys:

3 clear synergies.

  • Frosty Slow and freeze, increasing the uptime of Lightning Auras
  • Frosty Power, increasing the damage output of Lightning Auras + increasing DP bonus of Boost Aura
  • Drench Weapon, Water + lighting = electrocute, keeping enemies stunned in lanes that are getting over run.

Synergy is not simply complementary cooperation or argumentation of defenses. ie Boost Aura + Lighting aura is not a synergy, its an argumentation, SA explosions caused by Lighting Aura detonations is complementary cooperation not synergy.




The only true synergy mentioned by the OP is: 

  • 7. Frost tower keeps enemies away from the build and inside of the Serenity Aura for longer increasing chance of #4
However, due to a bug PDT's are already slowing so not much need for a Frostbite Tower, coupled with their insane damage there is not much need for any other tower :P

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@Nefhith quote:

The issue I see with PDTs is that maps are too small to have poison stuff be useful (DoT slowly eating enemies away), but if you give it more power to compensate for that, they become too powerful. I'ts a really hard to balance one.

It was great with teleport when it still worked on most of the big targets. Load em up with poison and send em back to keep it ticking. Then trendy took the easy way out and just disabled it on anything that could get stuck and cranked up the dmg on pdt.

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@huntn4it quote:

Synergy is more than the obvious combination of two towers to produce a canned effect (like oil+fire=burning, yawn).

Check out the cool stuff happening with the following setup:

  1. PDT applies poison damage over time
  2. Poison damage kills enemy
  3. Legendary bow causes enemy to explode, poisoning other enemies
  4. Legendary polearm causes serenity aura to also explode enemies (double explosion) thereby increasing chance of #2/3
  5. Boost aura improves offense and defense of the build
  6. Blockade defends the build
  7. Frost tower keeps enemies away from the build and inside of the Serenity Aura for longer increasing chance of #4

That's a lot of special effects happening in a build, it's extremely effective, and it's fun to watch the chain reactions.  This should be more common, and should be the benchmark for which other towers are balanced.  This is probably the first build that has felt right in the time I've played DD2.


I'd like to see more of this.  Instead of synergy just being "tower A + tower B causes a tiny bit of bonus damage" how about more of these special effects, explosions, massive stuns/freezes, confusion (mobs attacking eachother), etc.

It's fun when a synergy has more than two inputs.  It makes a complex build, and a complex gearing process, feel more rewarding.  There's nothing worse than being rewarded for hours/days/weeks of work with mediocrity, so, in my opinion...kudos for thinking outside the box with PDT (I really enjoy it), and I'm looking forward to more builds with heavy synergy like this one.



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In the old days 25++ hard mode when the game required a modicum of grey matter synergy was used, since lane resistances were removed and nothing done to replace that drop in difficulty the game has got progressively easier and brainless.

The average George A. Romero zombie could work out a 'strategy' for the game these days.

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@Fozzie quote:

In the old days 25++ hard mode when the game required a modicum of grey matter synergy was used, since lane resistances were removed and nothing done to replace that drop in difficulty the game has got progressively easier and brainless.

The average George A. Romero zombie could work out a 'strategy' for the game these days.

i agree with you that basically any strategy works, but in my opinion lane resistance didn't add strategy it just added bulk at worst, and at best complexity.

And didnt people just negate it anyway with chaos traps or something?

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@Zimmermann quote:


@Fozzie quote:

In the old days 25++ hard mode when the game required a modicum of grey matter synergy was used, since lane resistances were removed and nothing done to replace that drop in difficulty the game has got progressively easier and brainless.

The average George A. Romero zombie could work out a 'strategy' for the game these days.

i agree with you that basically any strategy works, but in my opinion lane resistance didn't add strategy it just added bulk at worst, and at best complexity.

And didnt people just negate it anyway with chaos traps or something?

Yeah. It was easy back then as well with elemental traps + Frost towers.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@Fozzie quote:

In the old days 25++ hard mode when the game required a modicum of grey matter synergy was used, since lane resistances were removed and nothing done to replace that drop in difficulty the game has got progressively easier and brainless.

The average George A. Romero zombie could work out a 'strategy' for the game these days.

i agree with you that basically any strategy works, but in my opinion lane resistance didn't add strategy it just added bulk at worst, and at best complexity.

And didnt people just negate it anyway with chaos traps or something?

OP Lightning strikes aura + purge evil, then flamethrowers,  then frosty chaos traps, then explosive archers, then proton spam, then back to frosty chaos (sometimes with protons)...

People will always find a way to overcome lane resistances/difficulty patches.

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The point was that there was a requirement to have some strategy, currently just about anything works. The easiest is PDT.

It's sad to see maps being overcome with virtually no DU being used, no repairing required or worse no walls.

The game is a cakewalk, requires no thought, there is no achievement to beat the current 'hardest' content.

When lane resistances went, something needed to replace it, and never has.

New heroes just broke it further with the passives power creep and then PDT got buffed for no real reason and its been absurdly broken ever since.

Log in do daily logout

Random individual immunities is the solution, as it initially was in DD1, before strength drain removed immunities.

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@Fozzie quote:

Random individual immunities is the solution, as it initially was in DD1, before strength drain removed immunities.

I agree with everything you said, but random individual immunities will not happen due to the DU design. They have reduced DU capacity on maps consistently with the increase of DU consumption of individual towers, which means less complex tower combinations meaning no way to overcome something like individual immunities.

But other then that I think you were spot on.

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@Folly quote:

None of what OP describes is synergy. It's augmentation and cooperation, but not synergy.

From www.Dictionary.com - 

Synergy:

noun, plural synergies.
1.
the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effectthat is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions,etc.; synergism.
2.
Physiology, Medicine/Medical. the cooperative action of two or moremuscles, nerves, or the like.
3.
Biochemistry, Pharmacology. the cooperative action of two or morestimuli or drugs.

Synonyms for synergy

noun collaboration, cooperation

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I agree with OP thoughts & sentiments....

Try this build on for size if you have the heroes for it:

Wall:

Maw of the Earth Drake


Defenses:

Proton Beam with Frosty nodes (2-4 Nodes long)

Frosty Tower with Freeze Sphere (optional if you have DU room)


Support:

Serenity Aura

Lavamancer Oil Geyser 1-3 per lane

Mystic Snaking Sands 1-2 per lane (optional. They have larger area of effect vs oil geysers, but don't hit flyers)


Lay this setup in each lane and see what happens. The amount you put in each lane will be based on DU limit, of course. VERY fun build with lots of "cooperation" AKA Synergy...see above post ;-)


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SpiderDanX

just an FYI Synonyms do not necessarily in all contexts have the same meaning.

For example, a team cooperates (synonym to synergy) in a video game, but one would not say they have great synergy when they are 5 DPS in a overwatch match. They Cooperate well, and win, but no synergy.

Synergy (synonym to cooperate) would in that case mean, a comp that works well together, 2 complementary healers burst/aoe healing, 2 complementary offensive/defensive tanks, dps that work off those tanks etc. You get the picture.

In DD2, I think it gets very subjective, but I am firmly in the position of believing adding a boost aura or buff beam is not synergising... its doing exactly what it says, buffing aka augmenting. Synergies are where two seemingly different towers combine to make something greater then the whole. A ballista that oils, and a Flamethrower tower... Sure that is a god awful synergy that will add about 12 damage in 30 minutes, but it is a synergy in my eyes, and vastly different to simply plopping down a boost aura.

Anyway, its a super subjective topic, so I am by no means saying I am right here.


Your build is a perfect example of synergies btw. you are clearly intentionally stacking slows and even a disorientate, and all your damage is coming from proximity/zonal ground defenses that increase massively the longer enemies stay within the kill zone.

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