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Idea for CDT update 3

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I think for CDT update 3 the bad rng should be fixed, and there should be a map added where if you farm it a few times you are very very likely to get higher end gear than most people have right now. I have farmed moonbase 20+ times with full emulators and still only have an average fusion rift. That is bad. Running through kings game NMHC survival starting at wave 23 (4 hours) I have seen not a single thing above transcendent drop. This is a problem. Nothing should be that grindy to the point where you get nothing for doing 4 hours of work. Nothing at all dropped in that run. Ember + buc bay are cool but they do not have extremely high quality equipment. Maybe make the map available to only people with all achievements, certain level or something? I dont know but there should be a way to get higher end gear.

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Disagree with creating a farming map at all, even worse if it's limited to people with all achievements.

Half the rarity issue with sup+ is the level rollover issue I've already brought up, which would affect any new map with high equipment quality modifiers. (The other half is that they are supposed to be quite rare) 

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@Ultii quote:

Ember + buc bay are cool but they do not have extremely high quality equipment.

They do, though.

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@Plane quote:


@Ultii quote:

Ember + buc bay are cool but they do not have extremely high quality equipment.

They do, though.

Buc bay = moby launcher (really really low fire speed, pawnshot is better) and rogers. Rogers is pretty good.

Ember = ember sceptre (no extra projectiles from the ones I have seen), a flamethrower (low range while doing mid damage), and i dont remember what the monk and squire rewards were.


I meant a new map that gives higher quality rewards the the already existent map, such as what happened with Moonbase. Fusion rift is one of the best weapons now. Ember sceptre will never be able to match that due to only having 1 projectile. The squire reward will be overshadowed by gladius and steamsaw for ember.

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@Carnage- quote:

Disagree with creating a farming map at all, even worse if it's limited to people with all achievements.

Half the rarity issue with sup+ is the level rollover issue I've already brought up, which would affect any new map with high equipment quality modifiers. (The other half is that they are supposed to be quite rare) 

The rollover also needs to be fixed. That would make it much easier to farm existing maps instead of new ones. And good gear shouldnt be so rare that I dont get anything above an ult fusion rift out of 100 fusion rifts or that I dont get anything above transcendent for a 4 hour kings game survival.

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Actually, you are grossly misinformed!

Pawnshot and Moby = same firing speed, just their in-game SpS number is odd, but in actual usage both are same. With the added advantage of Moby's being relatively easier to go Ult or Higher in quality, and PIERCES enemies, Pawnshot only has a slight AoE. 
Moby's > Pawnshot, whichever way you look at it.

Also, really? Ember Staff(Scepter) is pretty damn good, probaly the best over-all staff in game right now. It wipes the floor with Bloodshots and Fusions versus most Bosses. Don't take the "stats" and "single projectile" on face-value, try the weapon before making those claims! Any 80-85k or higher Ember Staff will easily out DPS Fusion Rifts at mid-long range, heck there is no comparison between the two. Unless you take pride is saying X weapon is good becasue it does Y damage on the tavern dummy compared to Z weapon.

Please now. Ember Flame has highest DPS of any Huntress gun, period. In fact, my 53k Ember Flame does more than 3m DPS versus my 156k E-Cannon(which is almost top-end). The trade-off is low range and E-Flame being ineffective versus ToL Cupids, Phoenix, but apart from that, it can melt down most Bosses in mere seconds doesn't even matter if its low range. Its SpS is the highest of any existing flamethrower, and its damage scaling is unreal.

Ember Sword is more or less an E-Sword, minus the special ranged attack, so its pretty good both raw DPS & Hawk DPS wise.

Ember Crescent is crap due to high spread, but has almost double the ranged damage per projectile compared to a 23k Ranged Sparus. Melee-wise I have't tested it, becasue they are real b!tch to farm good ones. Although it makes for good stat stick.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Actually, you are grossly misinformed!

Pawnshot and Moby = same firing speed, just their in-game SpS number is odd, but in actual usage both are same. With the added advantage of Moby's being relatively easier to go Ult or Higher in quality, and PIERCES enemies, Pawnshot only has a slight AoE. 
Moby's > Pawnshot, whichever way you look at it.

Also, really? Ember Staff(Scepter) is pretty damn good, probaly the best over-all staff in game right now. It wipes the floor with Bloodshots and Fusions versus most Bosses. Don't take the "stats" and "single projectile" on face-value, try the weapon before making those claims! Any 80-85k or higher Ember Staff will easily out DPS Fusion Rifts at mid-long range, heck there is no comparison between the two. Unless you take pride is saying X weapon is good becasue it does Y damage on the tavern dummy compared to Z weapon.

Please now. Ember Flame has highest DPS of any Huntress gun, period. In fact, my 53k Ember Flame does more than 3m DPS versus my 156k E-Cannon(which is almost top-end). The trade-off is low range and E-Flame being ineffective versus ToL Cupids, Phoenix, but apart from that, it can melt down most Bosses in mere seconds doesn't even matter if its low range. Its SpS is the highest of any existing flamethrower, and its damage scaling is unreal.

Ember Sword is more or less an E-Sword, minus the special ranged attack, so its pretty good both raw DPS & Hawk DPS wise.

Ember Crescent is crap due to high spread, but has almost double the ranged damage per projectile compared to a 23k Ranged Sparus. Melee-wise I have't tested it, becasue they are real b!tch to farm good ones. Although it makes for good stat stick.

I have tested the ember scepter. It cannot match the high end fusion rifts/bloodshots due to it's single projectile. I farmed an ult sceptre and an ult rift, same quality ish (~10 upgrades apart) and the rift ended up doing more damage. Also tested against the lab EVs and the Akatiti boss.


The differences aren't huge but I am going for the highest end gear instead of the high-ish end gear.

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@Ultii quote:

I think for CDT update 3 the bad rng should be fixed, and there should be a map added where if you farm it a few times you are very very likely to get higher end gear than most people have right now. I have farmed moonbase 20+ times with full emulators and still only have an average fusion rift. That is bad. Running through kings game NMHC survival starting at wave 23 (4 hours) I have seen not a single thing above transcendent drop. This is a problem. Nothing should be that grindy to the point where you get nothing for doing 4 hours of work. Nothing at all dropped in that run. Ember + buc bay are cool but they do not have extremely high quality equipment. Maybe make the map available to only people with all achievements, certain level or something? I dont know but there should be a way to get higher end gear.

KG survival is definitely not 4 hours of work, and you should actually start a few waves earlier (I do wave 20 on). Combat time per wave is about 5 minutes for me, so overall should be less than 2 hours unless you go afk (which I tend to do). As far as drops above trans, I've had anywhere from zero to six. Running it once or twice or even ten times is too small of a sample size as far as drops. It is a good map to farm for sure.

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I've done KG to the end about a dozen times starting at around 17-18 to 30 my best run was in total around 60 trans pieces, two sups and a ult+ boot (4 summoner emulated) and it took me around two hours as well like Mayhem said.

As to highest end gear, i can't really speak since most of my builders and characters have a smattering of ults so far - but the  staff I got from doing Ember (around 100K damage, 297 upg ult) does more damage than my ~50k bloodshot (also right around 300 ups) by a decent chunk - not to mention it is physical and effective at long range with splash damage. I had a 115k fusion and it wasn't really even close to my bloodshot. Granted these are all sort of lower end version of the end game items, but it did give me what I felt was a fairly even comparison.

For maps where I have found usable ult armors / weapons - there seem to be loads of them. The buccaneer rewards give you a very fast place to farm guns and swords that if nothing else make great builder weapons, for a map that's doable in under 20 minutes even with 4 emulated characters. Moonbase I haven't had much luck with any of the weapons being amazing, but there is still a very real possibility of finding better ToT's that will improve my builders - also a VERY fast map, I think my best time was around 12 minutes with 4 emulated, and probably 3 minutes was me failing to get 42 on dance. While farming trying to get an Ult++ bloodshot the 15-20 times I have done morrago to the end, I actually found three usable ult armors too, which was nice.

It's hard for me to really comment on the drop rates then vs now, or how much worse items are, but I can say for sure that about 75% of the trans and up armors I find aren't really even usable, it would be nice if they had less of a massive overlap range on upgrades - a mythical with 260 upgrades and a trans with 120 just doesn't make sense to me. I would love to see like the different drop tiers have a better set range of upgrades 100-250, trans from 200-300, sup from 250-350, ult from 300-400, ult+ 350-450, ult++ 400-500. Maybe those numbers would make the items by default too good, and I do agree that a great trans piece should still be able to be better than a bad supreme, but when I am finding supreme or even ult pieces worse than cursed items its a bit discouraging.

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@Ultii quote:

Nothing should be that grindy to the point where you get nothing for doing 4 hours of work. 


The differences aren't huge but I am going for the highest end gear instead of the high-ish end gear.

These things don't go well together.


Fusion rift has the highest dps (rain excluded ofc) but only if you manage to hit with all projectiles (which can even be tricky from close range).   Personally I find the spread of this thing so atrocious I rather use a classic myself. When you try to shoot something from a distance the ember sceptre will outdamage the fusion 11/10 times. When you need to take something down like the Phoenix for example, you turn into just another hero with stormtrooper syndrome.


Moby launcher is a better version of the pawnshot in every way (except looks :p), also the best tower huntress weapon in the game. But if you want raw dps and not proton blast or piercing shot only you should take a blaster rifle.


Ember crescent is not good for dps, but has potential to be the highest monk tower statted weapon in the game.


@Ultii quote:
The squire reward will be overshadowed by gladius and steamsaw for ember.

True because of the difficulty of ember, but the damage potential of that sword is incredible. But if you go full dps or full hawk then you indeed need glads or steamsaw.


TL;DR If you want highest endgame gear and are not prepared to play more then 4 hours, open has OP gear just by downloading some mods.


PS: quoting and posting the forum is still garbage 

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@Kirbykiller quote:

TL;DR If you want highest endgame gear and are not prepared to play more then 4 hours, open has OP gear just by downloading some mods.

I have played more than 4 hours. Around 1000 hours, in fact.

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I ran ember again and compared a Fusion Rift, Ember Sceptre, and Bloodshot again- They output similar DPS but the sceptre has range. They are all quite the same except if you want to farm easy (moonbase) mid-level (moraggo) or difficult (ember). Ember also has some great accessories and armor. Found this transcendent piece during my run:dNlxQn8.jpg


Tl;dr its just a matter of which map you prefer to farm


EDIT: The transcendent piece just proves my point about the RNG and rollover issues though. That is better than a lot of the ult/sup pieces I have farmed.

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I'll agree that currently the quality of Sup & Ult gear is absolutely horrible right now because something has really been changed about RNG. Most Sup & Ult pieces you will find are just borderline high-level Trans pieces, with high stats but low upgrades. Much like 300 stats Myths with 20 upgrades. 
RNG has certainly been tweaked, for whatever reason. It needs to be back to the pre-CDT RNG and improve there on. Right now all you get from Survivals is poor armor, and only leather for some reason. And even some myth armors get de-spawned if you happen to roll a godly or cursed piece, which happens a lot.

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@Ultii quote:

EDIT: The transcendent piece just proves my point about the RNG and rollover issues though. That is better than a lot of the ult/sup pieces I have farmed.

The game doesn't calculate armor quality based on how useful you feel it is. That trans is a mid tier trans and is way off being a sup piece. You cant just assume that you got screwed by the code because an ult has low ups and not the right stats on it. Thats not how it works at all. 

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Messing with the RNG system is a really risky business. Theres like a gazillion scalars and modifiers and other parameters that modify how loot and other things roll and it would almost be easier to design a new system from scratch than to fix the original. Also, any such changes have the huge potential to please some people and upset others, so it would be very difficult to get more than minor changes  accepted.

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But... right now the RNG is messed up.
Just revert it to whatever it was at pre-CDT and improve there on. 
Becasue 2 updates in and 8.1 saw an obnoxious amount of armor dropping.
And 8.2 had it reverted(which is fine), but something else got messed up. And unlike anything this game has seen before, there is an unprecedented amount of Godly & Cursed items dropping left and right in Survivals and wherever else. And these simply can not be "space-fillers" becasue they are replacing Myth pieces.

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@Black Mamba quote:

But... right now the RNG is messed up.
Just revert it to whatever it was at pre-CDT and improve there on. 
Becasue 2 updates in and 8.1 saw an obnoxious amount of armor dropping.
And 8.2 had it reverted(which is fine), but something else got messed up. And unlike anything this game has seen before, there is an unprecedented amount of Godly & Cursed items dropping left and right in Survivals and wherever else. And these simply can not be "space-fillers" becasue they are replacing Myth pieces.

Do you have examples of RNG being messed up?  Yes 8.1 had a bug introduced that wasn't caught and bumped drops.  That was fixed which should have then put RNG right back to 8.0 level.  

We did add a fix to the quality label so that all neg items would show as cursed instead of godly.  

The other fix that was added in 8.2 was the garbage loot fix on survivals where 50% of the drops were not getting all multipliers applied.  Now there are more myth+ drops on survival because of it.  So overall quality is up on survivals. This is evident in the fact that the amount of mana added to the bank when all items are sold is around 300mil per wave instead of 200mil with one summoner on KG waves 22+ in my testing.

So if we can get examples of how RNG is messed up then it will help pin point an issue if there is one.  

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@ddace quote:The other fix that was added in 8.2 was the garbage loot fix on survivals where 50% of the drops were not getting all multipliers applied.  Now there are more myth+ drops on survival because of it.  So overall quality is up on survivals. This is evident in the fact that the amount of mana added to the bank when all items are sold is around 300mil per wave instead of 200mil with one summoner on KG waves 22+ in my testing.


I can definitely confirm that the amount of mana is up in survivals. I get about 8B for a 20 to 30 KG run with 4 summoners versus about 4-5B before. And the RNG is still the RNG, getting good stuff and bad stuff, no change noticed.

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@Ultii quote:

I think for CDT update 3 the bad rng should be fixed, and there should be a map added where if you farm it a few times you are very very likely to get higher end gear than most people have right now. I have farmed moonbase 20+ times with full emulators and still only have an average fusion rift. That is bad. Running through kings game NMHC survival starting at wave 23 (4 hours) I have seen not a single thing above transcendent drop. This is a problem. Nothing should be that grindy to the point where you get nothing for doing 4 hours of work. Nothing at all dropped in that run. Ember + buc bay are cool but they do not have extremely high quality equipment. Maybe make the map available to only people with all achievements, certain level or something? I dont know but there should be a way to get higher end gear.

By the way, like Wdaled already said... how did you ended up playing a kingsgame run in 4hours?

Even if i propably dont got the best build (but its decent, though) feel free to add me- my build should hold even with trans stats and should not take more then 1,5-2 hours even with 4players (or: emulator), starting wave 18.

-> Michili

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@Alhanalem quote:

Messing with the RNG system is a really risky business. Theres like a gazillion scalars and modifiers and other parameters that modify how loot and other things roll and it would almost be easier to design a new system from scratch than to fix the original. Also, any such changes have the huge potential to please some people and upset others, so it would be very difficult to get more than minor changes  accepted.

I feel this; I've (on and off for the past week) been looking at how loot is generated in the hopes of creating a model outside of the game - the code is not easy to follow and relies on some things from the DDDK and some things from the code. A definite here be dragons situation but I still think it needs addressing.

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@Carnage- quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

Messing with the RNG system is a really risky business. Theres like a gazillion scalars and modifiers and other parameters that modify how loot and other things roll and it would almost be easier to design a new system from scratch than to fix the original. Also, any such changes have the huge potential to please some people and upset others, so it would be very difficult to get more than minor changes  accepted.

I feel this; I've (on and off for the past week) been looking at how loot is generated in the hopes of creating a model outside of the game - the code is not easy to follow and relies on some things from the DDDK and some things from the code. A definite here be dragons situation but I still think it needs addressing.

To put it simply, the loot system was added to, changed, tweaked, addded to some more over the game's official development. The end result was a complex web of stuff that sort of worked but trying to make it work better than just "sort of" is a nightmare. The system is needlessly complicated.

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Okay so of course I don't have any hardcore numbers to backup my claims. What I'm ranting about is based on my experience, and what a few other friends of mine have experienced in survivals right now and compared it to v7.5. I'm not talking about v8.0 & v8.1 since I wasn't there. 

When you say overall mana from survivals is increased, Acen, if you remember I did agree with you couple of months back when I ranted about Sky City being absolutely trash for some reason compared to other maps(which wasn't the case earlier). So yes indeed on most maps the number of Trans & Myth items has increased, i.e. more mana.

However, now that I've played plenty of survivals in this latest patch, I can say one thing -- quantity is there, but quality is not. There is certainly a lot more Supremes and Ultimates dropping now compared to v7.5 and before, which I'm totally okay with. But 7/10 of these drops are almost comparable to mid end Trans pieces(1 capping). Sure there can the "luck" factor in trolled drops, which is understandable. But again, having terrible drops consistently is what makes me believe that there is something wrong with it.

Moreover, previously when I used to play survivals(in v7.5 & before) I'd rarely see any Godly or Cursed items, especially from chests. Right now after almost 3 months, I've found only TWO triple capping Myths(one of which was from Tavernkeep), and maybe 2 or 3 double capping Trans. So there again, if I were to compare that with my previous experience the number of such Myths and Trans I would find was certainly greater.

Anyways, I'm not putting the blame on anyone & the rants are just based on my experience on comparing two different versions. You don't see me ranting about map rewards becasue there I don't see any difference. And for rewards, the NMHC roll-over problem is long known. But on survivals I most certainly do see difference. So the only reason I rant about survivals is because I don't run Lab Assault(never have, never will) and then to see the quality of Lab Assault armor versus Survival armor is quite demoralizing & frustrating for people that solely play Survivals for armor. Which then again opens the possibility of discussing why is Lab Assault still better than Survivals.


I'll try to get [[42201,users]](Pew Pew Pew) to chip-in on Survival RNG, because I've discussed about this with him as well couple of weeks back. Maybe he can add-in more to this since he has played all the 2-3 CDT updates, perhaps I'm missing something.

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What you're describing doesn't sound different from what I've been used to since I started playing this game to be honest. If in any update 3/10 of your ult drops were actually usable you'd be very lucky, from any loot source.

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@Black Mamba quote:Which then again opens the possibility of discussing why is Lab Assault still better than Survivals.

Lots of people say that, but unless I was just really unlucky on thousands of lab runs, it's not . . .  Well, YMMV.

Here's my experience: Lab Assault generally gives junk, and you have to grind the heck out of it to get anything good.  You have to grind survival to get high-end drops too, except that you can spend most of the time AFK on survival, so it doesn't wear you down as fast.  I got decent ++ on both lab and survival, but in general I was luckier with survival ++.

As you know, you also get pristine on survival, so if you do both lab and survival your pristine sets might lag behind the rest :(  So some people think survival is better because it gives pristine, and some people think survival is worse because it gives pristine . . . 

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@Alhanalem quote:

Messing with the RNG system is a really risky business. Theres like a gazillion scalars and modifiers and other parameters that modify how loot and other things roll and it would almost be easier to design a new system from scratch than to fix the original. Also, any such changes have the huge potential to please some people and upset others, so it would be very difficult to get more than minor changes  accepted.

I've build a TC with some minor tweaks to the RNG; haven't had the time to run through a survival on it yet but regular maps are unchanged in their drops (as intended) just need to see if it fixes the poor quality drop rate in later survival waves...

If it plays as expected I'll release it for people to have a play with.

(Expected in this case is that a run on KG NMHCMM will produce steadily more trans+ drops as the waves go on instead of a sweet spot at about wave 25 +/- 2 )

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