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Kirbykiller

Lightning tower nerf

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Title says it all, it has been fun and all but this tower is obviously to strong now. The combination of range and damage basically wipes any map, and then I haven't even started yet about the jester version which should be even stronger (didn't actually test so somebody confirm pls). Personally I find the range just rediculous, but I've heard from others it is more the damage, but the combination of both is obviously something that could use some tweeks. 


Thread is open for discussion or ideas so please speak up if you do have an opinion.

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I'm currently 60-40 in favour of nerf.
60 because of the reasons you mentioned.
40 becasue by itself a single LT isn't quite as powerful.

One solution to balance it out is to mitigate the damage dealt by LTs to the end of the chain, kinda like proxy traps. So the farther an enemy is away from the LT source, the less damage it does.

For trash mobs, even 1 LT is more than enough, the problem is with how OP a bunch of them(5+) are versus Ogres, and even Bosses(Halloween Invasion, anyone?). This is because of multi-chaining. Since all LTs can simultaneously arch through a single target. But if that is somehow limited, then a case could be made that Harpoons or Party Poppers, or Fireballs are also OP since 5 Fireballs etc. can simultaneously attack a single target as well, so in a way --- multi-chaining.

Now, when suggesting for nerfs, we have to test out the tower at lower stats as well to see if it is a case of being OP due to extremely high stats or it is genuinely OP even at low stats(~1k to 2.5k). There isn't enough reason for people at low stats to use any other Apprentice Tower apart for Fireball, so if LTs provide a reason to be used, then why not.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Now, when suggesting for nerfs, we have to test out the tower at lower stats as well to see if it is a case of being OP due to extremely high stats or it is genuinely OP even at low stats(~1k to 2.5k). There isn't enough reason for people at low stats to use any other Apprentice Tower apart for Fireball, so if LTs provide a reason to be used, then why not.

I cleared BB on NMHC with a LT build with about 1k stats on adept (only a diamond equipped), and it worked pretty well but did require DPS/wheel, and I had to add a few reflect walls to make it work.  With those stats, the lightning didn't always seem to aggro the ogres, so I took a bit of core damage.  The build worked, but it might not be the best choice with lower stats.

I think strikers are still useful at low stats, by the way.

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LTs do a bit more single target dps than electric auras (220,000 vs 330,000 for me). For 5 and 7 du a piece, that is not that remarkable. The maximum (theoretical) targets on a high end LT is around 60-70; an aura will rarely if ever affect that many mobs. LTs can agro, but are destructible and have rather low health. Overall, a single LT is not really that overpowered.

LTs get more powerful in a group. They can, and normally will all target the same mobs when placed close together. This means they will often focus on ogres, as trash mobs die. However, they still do not do that much damage! One harpoon (1.7M dps for me) is more useful for killing ogres than several LTs, although this depends on how many there are in range of the LTs. For example 1 harpoon can take out 5 ogres in roughly the same time as 5(!) LTs. That's 10 du vs 39 du. Granted, this does assume perfect targeting on the part of the harpoon, and no multidamage from the harpoon from piercing.

This leaves their huge potential for almost map wide agro. Agro is a funny and apparently divisive feature of dd, just look at the differing opinions on the agro build on Sky City, long before the LT buff. So you may not agree with me here. I don't see a problem with getting agro this way. In my eyes it provides for better strategies as you can force ogres a certain way. This does not work on its own I should mention; if you don't block the ogre's path, they will destroy your LT pretty quickly. And don't think you can just place them somewhere inaccessible to ogres. When I tried that on akatiti, the ogres lost ALL agro and focused my unprotected crystal. All in all, and this is my opinion, the agro potential from LT is not broken.

One more thing :) They can be used for effortlessly speedrun a few maps. Buccaneer's Bay, Palantir, Aquanos, possibly others. I don't think this is a problem because they are easy maps to begin with (for high-end players), and all LT strategies do not work on harder maps.

Hopefully I have shown that any strategy using LT towers can also be achieved with a combination of other towers, with better results in a lot of cases. The LTs are just convenient because they achieve all those effects (decent damage, lots of agro, clears all trash mobs) in one tower. However, on hard maps like embermount and the majority of survivals building LT is simply not enough to clear the ogres. The LT is op only on maps with plenty of spare du.


Having said all of that, they are still a bit op for most situations, and I'm not necessarily against a nerf. If so, I would prefer a nerf to damage so that the agro part can still be used :)

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[[62132,users]] Summed it up pretty much.
The only change I'd like for them is reducing the damage they do at the very end of the chain and increases based on how close the enemy is to the LT, similar to how proxies work. Might probably be a complex thing to implement, I dunno. I would be probably be against "overall damage nerf". That way, aggro(if needed) can still be achieved without crippling them. Before the buff(whenever it was), I've never used LTs becasue for the DU they were pretty garbage in comparison to Harpoons & Fireballs.


[[157616,users]], well Buc Bay is a rather simple map to being with. Easily doable with just a couple of Archers or Party Poppers.
I'm talking about higher end maps where its a cake walk with LTs, and on most survivals, like Aquanos. Whether those are doable with 1-2.5k stats with LTs alone. Also, when I mean low stats, its implied the other builders are also at the same stat range. It wouldn't make much sense to test out LTs at 1-2.5k stats with 5-6kk buffs and Auras and Traps. ;-)

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@ThePoet424 quote:One harpoon (1.7M dps for me) is more useful for killing ogres than several LTs, although this depends on how many there are in range of the LTs. For example 1 harpoon can take out 5 ogres in roughly the same time as 5(!) LTs. That's 10 du vs 39 du.

Yeah so that's just wrong... I got mixed up here somehow.

In that example the harpoon does the same dps as 5 LT, but not to all at the same time.  In the time the harpoon kills one ogre, the 5 LTs have killed all the ogres in range.

A fairer comparison would be 5 harpoons vs 5 LTs. Now they kill 5 ogres in the same amount of time; any fewer and the harpoons are superior; any more and the LT are actually MORE EFFECTIVE! *goes away and looks at all of his builds* This still assume perfect targeting on the part of the harpoon, and no multidamage from the harpoons from piercing. So in terms of doing damage to ogres, djinns etc. LTs are, in some situations, competitive if not straight up the best option.


huh, maybe they need a small nerf?

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Probably the best nerf would be what Black Mamba suggested: just drop the damage of the LT each time it jumps. .5 - 1% would be enough to reduce damage by 50% at the end of a long chain. Could start with something low and work up until they are a bit better balanced.

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Another idea:

Keep damage the same, but don't allow multiple LTs to damage the same target in the same second.

Right now, if you stack a bunch of elec auras or inferno traps, they do not stack.  Lightning towers are similar to these, hitting lots of stuff for decent damage but not doing as much damage as fireballs or harps to a single target.  LTs get silly when you use 10 of them because they kill ogres so effectively, but LTs should really be crowd control, not ogre killers.

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OMG, please no! The stacking (multi-chaining/multi-targeting) is what makes physical towers different from Auras, Traps and Beams.
The very fact that Harpoons, Fireballs, LTs and others can attack a same target at the SAME TIME is what makes them somewhat viable for bigger mobs.
If LTs are nerfed in that way, it would just be an Electric Aura with higher range but destroy-able and extremely squishy and with 2 more DU, i.e. worthless IMO. Physical towers should not be limited to being "crowd control", we have plenty of support towers for that. In fact, 2 of base classes are already having support towers, don't really need more crowd-control towers.

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Not worthless.  They weren't worthless before the buff (contrary to popular opinion), and they would still be significantly better than they used to be even if they didn't stack anymore. 

LT were always for crowd control / making builds go faster, and that's the role I'd like to see them in again.  Not killing ogres and bosses.

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I think they are kind of OP right now, however I think they were basically garbage after you got to nightmare historically. They were fun because you could hit a ton of enemies with them and the effect was continuous but the damage per hit was just really low and you were better off with a lightning aura which effectively functioned almost the same way (and couldn't be destroyed like a physical tower).

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Here's the thing though -- LTs in a bunch is OP, one single or 2 LTs are just not quite as good as people are suggesting it to be.
OP in the sense that you have to re-design your entire build based on saving those LTs since they will draw aggro and HP wise they are pretty squishy. its also OP on maps that really don't require all that much stats to begin with.

I've tried a variety of LT combos on Embermount, it just hasn't been able to convince me to use LTs over maybe a bunch of Party Poppers or Harpoons/Fireballs. So i'd say that LT right now is pretty much a tower that helps you steamroll maps which you could already steamroll, albeit now a bit faster.

All the LT focused builds you'll see right now are using 5+ of these placed somewhere where they don't get hit etc. I'm yet to find 1 single build where the lone LT was a primary damage dealing tower becasue it simply can't be, same with 1 single harpoon being the primary damage dealing tower. You'll always have a bunch of physical towers being used.

In think overall its good right now, the only thing I'd like it changed is what I suggested -- some damage reduction at the very end of the chain and the damage increases based on proximity to the actual tower.

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Maybe your idea is best.  I don't know.  It's hard to say whether any of these ideas are good without testing them out, and that's pretty difficult for non-CDT folks to do.  So I'll just explain one more time the reasoning behind my idea:

My idea was based around preventing 100% lightning builds, which I think are silly.  The more lightning you have on a single map, the more OP it is.  But you can do great builds with 1 or 2 lightning that aren't OP and go much faster than the builds without lightning, for example the monkey run build I showed you with 2 lightning towers.  Even with just 1 lightning tower, monkey runs go pretty quickly.   I think it'd be great if people could still do that sort of build, but not lightning-only builds, so I think the CDT should do something about lightning getting more and more OP the more you use in one map. 

Even when lightning was very low damage, it could be used in a similar fashion to make survival builds go faster, to relieve congestion at long distances.  That's why I say it wasn't useless in NM, although clearly it was a very niche tower.  That's also why I think they shouldn't stack any more than elec auras or inferno traps should stack – lightning towers were essentially weaker elec auras that have special targeting, something no other tower has, that let them relieve congestion at a distance.  With boosted damage, they're on par with elec auras for damage (if you use only one), but they hit the entire map and aggro ogres, so they're very useful even if you use only 1 or 2.

 . . . 

Anyway, it doesn't matter too much what I think since I'm not playing DD at the moment. I just wanted to explain my thought process in case anyone was interested :)

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@Kirbykiller quote:

and then I haven't even started yet about the jester version which should be even stronger (didn't actually test so somebody confirm pls

Jester towers have these advantages:

  • Attack speed scaling of an apprentice.  This means squire towers do 1.5x DPS, apprentice towers do 1.0x DPS.
  • Less DU.  For harps, that means you spend 4 DU instead of 6 DU; for lightning, that means you spend 4 DU instead of 7 DU.  This works out to 1.5x DPS for squire towers and 1.75x DPS for app towers.
  • Two weapons equipped, so getting higher stats is easier.  Since squires have shields, the stats make a bigger difference for apprentice towers than squire towers, but the difference can be significant for both types.

So if you take both multipliers into account, with the same stats, jester harps do 2.25x DPS per DU, and jester lightning does 1.75x DPS per DU.  But since stats are not equal, in practice my jester harps do about 2.5x DPS per DU, and my jester lightning does more than 2x the DPS per DU.

However, that requires farming presents, which I'm too lazy to do.

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