Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
mindlessdefender

NM5 difficulty should not allow us to swap characters during wave.

Recommended Posts

If they were to make a game harder (just using NM5 as an example), I think they should add some limitations like no character swapping  as one of them. (ONLY during waves you can not swap, you CAN swap to as many as you can in build phase)
Because you can not make the game hard by allowing character swapping, by swapping to other pet abilities or character abilities that are not on cool down or not out of energy to keep spamming.  And allowing chain crowd control getting out of hand, just can't balance around that I think.
Another idea could be you can only swap character on death, and when that character dies you can not use him again till wave over.  Be kinda hardcore mode going on.
Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think it would be kinda fun if it were the opposite lol. NM5, or whatever the ultimate challenge ends up being, should REQUIRE a well balanced mix of active Hero Deck characters.


Sure, currently there are a lot of likely exploits, but I'd like to see the Hero Deck really be emphasized as a major tool instead of giving it to us then taking it away when we get to the top. I'd fully expect tweaks to stuff to keep it from just being a spamfest. Global pet cooldowns, much more hectic enemy types and AI that can't be easily shutdown like they currently can, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just mechanics like ev2 overheat becomes useless as you just swap to another character with 0 heat for example. Or chain #6 with multiple gunwitches or what have you. 

Or maybe make it cost 50 gems when you swap heh make it worth your while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, there's a lot of things they'd likely have to adjust, but ultimately, I think it'd be a better route for the game. I try to look at the potential benefits more than what ambitious players will break. The latter can be addressed accordingly, and new stuff will pop up no matter what they do. Can't think of a single persistent game I've ever played that wasn't a constant tug of war like that lol.


They could also do things like increase the swap cooldown by a certain amount of time each time you use it, making it a strategic thing that can't be abused the whole time.


They could definitely experiment with restrictions via Incursions or maps, but I think of it's a core part of the game's design, the final tier should make it shine as a feature instead of taking it away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

I still don't understand this whole "NM# shouldn't exist" logic. I guess Easy Normal Hard Insane shouldn't either. Just one difficulty is fine. It's all semantics. It's just another way of scaling the game to keep up with equipment. They can still give us all the other stuff we want. No difficulty at all or NM 1-100, if we get everything else we want, would you still care?


You keep stating it like a fact when it really doesn't matter at all.

Edit: By "you" I mean everyone who says it. I'm not targetting you specifically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

I just using NM5 as an example, as I really do not know what their plans are. But I glade you agree with the limitation of hotswapping.  I feel it is too much of a cheese tactic, unless you add some kind of penalty for doing so.  Or maybe add a 5 second channel that can be interrupted by attacks when changing character.  Either way in its current stat, it should not be allowed.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

The only difference between DD1 and DD2 is the names of the difficulties, and that DD2 doesn't actually have an equivalent of DD1's Nightmare.

Completing the Campaign makes you ready for Nightmare 1, so after finishing the Campaign in DD2:

  • DD2's Nightmare I = DD1's Easy
  • DD2's Nightmare II = DD1's Normal
  • DD2's Nightmare III = DD1's Hard
  • DD2's Nightmare IV = DD1's Insane

The naming of the difficulty levels is kind of stupid, but I don't really care what they're called. You shouldn't either. It's just a name. It doesn't change what they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where's the dislike button? This should exist!

Anyway, I remember when we could not hotswap at all. Also, whatever heroes we selected before we entered into a map is what we were stuck with the whole map. It was painful and not fun. The community spoke out and Trendy listened. 

Gonna give this one a big 2 thumbs WAY WAY DOWN!


On the other hand, if Trendy could make it so that we could toggle this option on and off, then those who never got to experience the pain, could do so. Those who just enjoy pain (WHY?!) can experience it again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anything I feel removing hotswapping during waves would be an even more artificial difficulty than the current NMII-IV are. It would work as a ruleset on an incursion perhaps, but not for a whole tier of content. It doesn't really add anything IMO other than even more pigeonholing of builds. People would (just like now) figure out the ideal build a map and have one dps. Doing anything else would be nerfing yourself if you couldn't swap between waves and adjust to what comes.


If anything, what I would like to see would be more dynamic challenges for waves. Things that change randomly between waves so you'd have to adjust to what comes. Maybe the possibility of shifting lanes, random waves have special powers like the chrome power, while the next wave might be heavily shielded and take extra damage when knocked up. Followed by a CC immune goblin suicide horde.  Things like this would encourage variety. Or maybe it'd just encourage people to follow an even more specific build that covers everything possible.


I'd also like to see more active bosses that might not follow quite as set a pattern to make even better use of dps characters. As boring as Harbinger is (after quite a few runs) I like the idea of defending against endless hordes while fighting bosses. So maybe add random bosses that aren't as tied to the lanes as current ones are. Like a goblin helicopter that chases the players and has a multitude of skills. You could either engage it with a dps or try to lure it into lanes for your defenses to deal with, but forcing you to take it out of lanes every now and then as well or the defenses would be overwhelmed (heli buffs lanemobs a lot?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Vagnar quote:


@gigazelle quote:

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

I still don't understand this whole "NM# shouldn't exist" logic. I guess Easy Normal Hard Insane shouldn't either. Just one difficulty is fine. It's all semantics. It's just another way of scaling the game to keep up with equipment. They can still give us all the other stuff we want. No difficulty at all or NM 1-100, if we get everything else we want, would you still care?


You keep stating it like a fact when it really doesn't matter at all.

Edit: By "you" I mean everyone who says it. I'm not targetting you specifically.

Yea I don't really get it either. Somehow removing those numbers will make the game better off.

The people advocating for it seem to forget that there was/is certain maps in DD1 that clearly rewards better gear. Justified? Sure, some maps are harder than others and should reward higher gear, or at least the chance of it.

It's not like you could just boot up any of the maps there and expect to get a upgrade for your godly geared heroes.

I'm not 100% up to date on how loot drops actually works in DD1 nightmare, if it's just a crazy % modifier or if certain gear is actually tied to maps.(rarity and stat numbers)

I'm sure someone can tell me I'm wrong or how it actually works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should still be possible to swap, but as a modifier it would be great. No hero swapping after first initial build= more gold and better drop chances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@SpiderDanX quote:

Where's the dislike button? This should exist!

Anyway, I remember when we could not hotswap at all. Also, whatever heroes we selected before we entered into a map is what we were stuck with the whole map. It was painful and not fun. The community spoke out and Trendy listened. 

Gonna give this one a big 2 thumbs WAY WAY DOWN!


On the other hand, if Trendy could make it so that we could toggle this option on and off, then those who never got to experience the pain, could do so. Those who just enjoy pain (WHY?!) can experience it again.

Pretty much this.

This idea is entirely stupid, illogical really. It goes against the entire point of having the swap-able hero's update not even a year ago.

What the game need's is a risk and reward system, similar to enabling Hardcore mode in the first game. A couple of toggleable options such as enabling the "x4 shared lifes" for all maps, or "towers only" and so on.


Giving the players less options is never a good thing and wont help the game grow at all.
Even more so if we start backpedaling on design choices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There should be no nm5 in the standard sense. The tiered system is already pretty poor. Further restricting the ability to swap heroes would not be fun and would require a new loot system as you would only be able to get items for character you can use during the wave. This encourages AFK only strategies and fails to reward players well for their time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@MaJean quote:

It should still be possible to swap, but as a modifier it would be great. No hero swapping after first initial build= more gold and better drop chances.

Oh yeah - and no more NM"(insert number here)". Just make ONE that works. With modifiiers to suit everybody´s masochistic needs.


Yes I quoted myself!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@MaJean quote:


@MaJean quote:

It should still be possible to swap, but as a modifier it would be great. No hero swapping after first initial build= more gold and better drop chances.

Oh yeah - and no more NM"(insert number here)". Just make ONE that works. With modifiiers to suit everybody´s masochistic needs.


Yes I quoted myself!

There is still room for an hardcore mode, or whatever mode they might add. I want modifiers too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Vagnar quote:


@gigazelle quote:

NM5 should never exist.

In fact, NM4, NM3, and NM2 should never have existed either. They only exist to artificially fill a progression curve that has literally no additional content or mechanics.

However, for the Nightmare refactor patch (whenever that comes), I am in absolute support of preventing hotswapping heroes during combat phase.

I still don't understand this whole "NM# shouldn't exist" logic. I guess Easy Normal Hard Insane shouldn't either. Just one difficulty is fine. It's all semantics. It's just another way of scaling the game to keep up with equipment. They can still give us all the other stuff we want. No difficulty at all or NM 1-100, if we get everything else we want, would you still care?


You keep stating it like a fact when it really doesn't matter at all.

Edit: By "you" I mean everyone who says it. I'm not targetting you specifically.



Usually I don't enter in end-game discussions. Because everyone has their own ideas.

But please always consider one thing: A game has a community. When it comes to end-game diffictulies, only a small amount of all players will play the highest difficulty mode regularly. That means, by adding just more and more difficulties, you are splitting the community further.


By creating ONE Nightmare mode, you should add several options to make the game more difficult but also more rewarding. So, when you enter Nightmare mode, all sessions are listed. But here is the clue, the whole sessions are available for everyone. It's not like you need to play through NM1 to NM#. Instead, you have game options that make it QUITE harder (e.g. hardcore and many more options, like the mentioned "no hotswapping" option).


For example, when we first enter the only nightmare mode, it will be really tough and people should fail. But by coming to later waves, people should have better chances to get the really good gear und thus being able to set the difficulty multipliers, which just offers variety and higher chances of getting that "BiS item" (best in slot, don't take that phrase to serious, you get what I mean).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Skalli A fair point, but to play devil's advocate, did the community actually play together anyway in this regard? Players fresh into Nightmare joining games where people had the game cranked to 11. Was that welcome or encouraged? I imagine they were just leeching off the efforts of the players who were strong enough to do it.


I could counterargue NM tiers is also a form of filter. At its core, it's just giving you a base line value for enemy level/scaling, and if the revamp successfully kicks the game's difficulty up, I doubt players currently doing NMIV would be regularly pairing up with players in NM1. Friends/helping people/etc being the obvious exception.


We already have the ability to set ilvl restrictions, and they show up in your list even if you don't meet the requirements. I can imagine that's very discouraging for new players, especially if ALL NM matches were showing up in one giant "you're too weak!" List.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DD1 could have pared down several difficulties since there were really only two that had differing game mechanics - Nightmare and everything else.

What I want is an easy/normal/hard campaign mode, then for freeplay, difficulties would be separated by game mechanics. You want higher tier enemies early in waves, unable to hotswap, and/or other masochistic mechanics? Do NM difficulty. You'll be rewarded for it. You don't want to play against those mechanics? Play another difficulty. Won't be as high chance of getting legendaries, but you can still get high ipwr blue/purple gear.

NM 1-4 should be shaved down to just Nightmare, and instead of increased health/damage, give us game-changing mechanics that actually make it a nightmare to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

DD1 could have pared down several difficulties since there were really only two that had differing game mechanics - Nightmare and everything else.

What I want is an easy/normal/hard campaign mode, then for freeplay, difficulties would be separated by game mechanics. You want higher tier enemies early in waves, unable to hotswap, and/or other masochistic mechanics? Do NM difficulty. You'll be rewarded for it. You don't want to play against those mechanics? Play another difficulty. Won't be as high chance of getting legendaries, but you can still get high ipwr blue/purple gear.

NM 1-4 should be shaved down to just Nightmare, and instead of increased health/damage, give us game-changing mechanics that actually make it a nightmare to play.

Trust me you are wasting your time.

That's why you let Trendy do what they want and just do what I have done. Take a complete break from the game, let your daily stack up and do them when bored.

Wait for Phase 3 and see if this big thing is actually game changing or just a gimmick.

Plenty of time to enjoy other games in the mean time. No more dramas that way.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

 Won't be as high chance of getting legendaries, but you can still get high ipwr blue/purple gear.


Ahhhhh. Another "No fun allowed" approach. Only the Hardcores get the coveted shinies. Got it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Giving players something, then taking it away is a poor development choice.

A much better approach would be to expand it and make it almost nessasary ^
Changing a game mechanic such as - Bringing back resistances would work.
If you brought back resistances players would have to swap between thier choice of hero dps or Ability power to suit what they were killing.

Also, Mechanical challenges. Like, Spiders, djynns, goblin copters.   Bosses that you have to look at and be prepared for.
The closest 'boss' we have is the Skeleton boss, which i think is a great mechanic.

However, i would be more inclined to changing the direction of NM 1-3 (which don't exsist) The majority with few exceptions of newer players i see, just sit and wait for someone to host a 0 ipwr requirement and jump straight into farming higher level gear.

Having interesting MOBS, or Have maps that you don't build and forget. Different paths opening and closing, Different resistances changing, Constantly on a timer, Mob speed increased. These are the types of mechanics i'd like to see for a 'nightmare' challenge. Instead of just Limiting hero usage. 

Expand, do not remove.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Vagnar quote:


@gigazelle quote:

 Won't be as high chance of getting legendaries, but you can still get high ipwr blue/purple gear.


Ahhhhh. Another "No fun allowed" approach. Only the Hardcores get the coveted shinies. Got it.

Lmao why do you want everything given to you ? Doesn't that get boring ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@SpiderDanX quote:

Where's the dislike button? This should exist!

Anyway, I remember when we could not hotswap at all. Also, whatever heroes we selected before we entered into a map is what we were stuck with the whole map. It was painful and not fun. The community spoke out and Trendy listened. 

Gonna give this one a big 2 thumbs WAY WAY DOWN!


On the other hand, if Trendy could make it so that we could toggle this option on and off, then those who never got to experience the pain, could do so. Those who just enjoy pain (WHY?!) can experience it again.

Its only during a wave, you can swap when wave is over.  I usually never swap during waves so I do not see it as a big deal.
Cause all that is gonna happen with swaping is you take the best DPS character you make 4 of them you get 4 drago lich or whatever and swap between them during waves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Pegazul quote:


@Vagnar quote:


@gigazelle quote:

 Won't be as high chance of getting legendaries, but you can still get high ipwr blue/purple gear.


Ahhhhh. Another "No fun allowed" approach. Only the Hardcores get the coveted shinies. Got it.

Lmao why do you want everything given to you ? Doesn't that get boring ?

No, but it's a "have your cake and eat it too" design style I dislike.


If people want to play a certain way, they shouldn't be punished for it by not getting legendaries etc. I can understand unique trophy style weapons, but not core gameplay related gear.


Besides, this game is never going to be more than hobby grade for most. No point in running that crowd off by snubbing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...