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Caimen0

Initiate and Countess Ability buffs

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Sorry I misread the first part.


And still disagree on boost, I have 2.5k ab2 on monk with ~200k NM hp, and when i'm at 2/3 hp I still expect to regain it by boost during the fight instead of wasting my mana on healing. Even ~600hp/s means that I regain more than 10% of my total hp pool during a boosted period.  (sure, this matters only during Old One where you have a long boss fight and can expect to avoid most of the incoming damage. I don't rely on boost's effect anywhere else. But saying it's completely useless is simly incorrect) 

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Regardless of whether or not it's useful in one scenario does not preclude my point about initiate, though. When will Hero Boost heal you back from a Phoenix dive bomb? Will it get you through Temple of Polybius on hardcore? I haven't seen it happen yet myself, but Mischief was able to do it and I assume he was on Monk so it might be possible.

I think that remote defense boost is useless (and it seems you agree with the consensus of the rest of the thread). This seems to be an ability that would synergize with the ability2 well, and is something that the game to this point seems to be lacking. This would also further help groups of lower end players beat the flagship farming maps like Akatiti.

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The reason monks heal has any effect is that the ability takes so little mana you can quite easily keep it running for 50-60 seconds (IIRC, it takes ~40s just to chew through 2020 mana...). Add that monks themselves don't have a huge amount of HP and over the duration of the ability use, even 500/s becomes 20-30k (10%)

You also missed barb & summoner heals from your list (which I don't think was was intentional, since you did include WoF and HB), both of which are atleast competitive with WoF depending on what you need.

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The list was of heals that affected other players than yourself, and yes I did miss Summoner heal. The problem with Summoner heal is that firstly, a high HP summoner will have 130k hp. You die way too fast to be anywhere near useful. Furthermore, maps are increasingly becoming impossible to adequately use Flash Heal on from Overlord, as Overlord doesn't even work on the boss room of Polybius. (As far as I know) Not only that, but that is your only contribution to a boss fight, and you can only do it every seven seconds. What happens when you run out of mana? You have to exit overlord and die to collateral damage because your HP pool is so low.

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I think adding a heal others ability to initiate is a great idea. Maybe we can remove the small amount of healing done from monk's hero boost?

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Beginning with a slightly off-topic: I didn't really enjoy Temple of Polybius event even one bit, mainly becasue of how I had to run it. Due to my timezone, me and I think Gokkup was the host we couldn't get more than 1 player at the time and I had to practically run it solo back then with very low stats as I was with just one other guy who wasn't that much of a help. And that event turned to a very annoying experience for me. But if it is being improved upon, etc. by CDT then props to you. Still don't have any good memories from that event. monk_small.png

Anyways, on the topic of Healing. I am of the opinion that healing in the game, esp NMHC is pretty good as it stands for most maps. Now see, the suggestion for adding a significant heal is being put up becasue of one map -- Temple of Polybius. We have to take into consideration that IF a healing AB1 for initiate is added, then how will it affect other maps and whether it will make them even easier, or not. Take for example Embermount itself, right now the top-end map. Hero Health is one of the critical parts of that map given how many Red Wyverns, Copters, Harbingers etc. keep spawning in the boss wave + the Boss attack itself. Now any skilled player with even 2k hp 3k dmg can beat that map without having the need of a fairy or a secondary healer. I've been doing pubs on that maps with most of the inexperienced players dying midway, but I rarely go below 20% HP. Thing is, eventually healing becomes obsolete when you have good resists and you can dodge properly. So IMO, more powerful healing isn't really needed.

Please note that I am not against having healing ability on initiate, and in fact this is what I had suggested a few weeks back:

...having enemy drain deal like 15,000-20,000 damage per tick(1 sec or 2secs) to any enemies under its influence and heal you by some number say 1500-2000 per tick would be a fine addition to the ability. Ideally it would truly mean "enemy drain" as in you are draining life from enemies and healing yourself.

If AoE damage &  just the initiate getting healed isn't interesting, I'd like to improve upon that:
So lets say a Initiate has the AB2 on, now if any heroes under the influence of this ability DEAL DAMAGE get healed by some %. We can discuss on what the heal % can be, I'd say making it something like the Barbarian's Siphon Stance. So that if you are actively dealing damage under the AB2 of Initiate you keep getting healed.
As far as AoE dmg-per-tick suggestion was concerned, there aren't many abilities that deal a consistent damage, most are just quick bursts of damage, and apart from EV Proton Charge/Blast there isn't really any ability that deals consistent damage for a long period, which is why I suggested that. And 20k isn't that high of a damage but in a group of mobs it can come in handy. Ideally I would've suggested something like 100-200k damage per second or 2 secs, but then that might require a lot of testing and balancing to make sure it doesn't get crazy OP especially considering it (kind of)stacks with Monk Boost even without any damage.

Finally, I'd suggest that we discuss more on how to make RDB better. We should have Initiate as a complementary character to Monk rather than totally re-vamping her abilities, specifically the Tower one. Yes it is garbage in 99.99999% scenarios, and apart from 1 or 2 people no one really uses AB1 on initiate. But instead of completely removing it in favor of a healing ability, we should be discussing on how to make it more appealing and interesting. I already made a few suggestions regarding this in my previous posts and we can debate on those since quite a few of members were in agreement of those, mainly that it is changed to a Tower Boost, but instead of healing and ramping-up tower damage, it increases the tower resists and increases their range and rate like how Monk + Squire + Huntress Guardians work. Of course this will make guardians obsolete, but really, they are already kind of obsolete(apart from Huntress guards on a few maps).

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about Initiate Hero Healing feature...

I like the healing idea (especially because ab1 is usually defensive) but I believe that we won't need another "aura"-like healing for heroes. I would like to see a different method of hero healing.

A charge like proton blast - as more mana has been invested, as higher is her healing amount/rate but instead of an aura, she shoots a particle beam which focus and follows a mate as long as the ability is enabled (TF2 Medic anyone?). Her own health will regenerate at an increased amount per rate compared to hero boosts healing ability.

Alternatively to keep the focus on tower... how about a tower healing feature across the map, healing 2-3 most damaged towers simultaneously at an increased heal amount.



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Proposal (personal thoughts only, no way representative of the CDT):

  • RDB changed to tower boost that increases attack rate and range
  • Enemy drain changed to hero boost that gives a minor damage buff (+20-ish% at high stats) and a major healing buff (double/triple what healing auras put out)
  • Both abilities stack with monk's boosts

While it still puts her behind the monk in terms of usefulness, it would absolutely make having a DPS initiate worthwhile when another player runs monk. She'd be especially useful for Embermount and Polybius.

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Just healing for AB2? No Damage per tick? it's "Enemy Drain", its gotta suck life out of the damn Goblins, Orcs & Ogres! :D
Can you elaborate a bit more on "Enemy drain changed to hero boost"? Does that mean how it currently works will be removed? Or would the damage & healing buff be an addition on the current mechanics of Enemy Drain?

Thanks.

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I was thinking they could be more closely related to monk's boosts.

  • Initiate defense boost would boost DPS in the sense that attack rate and range would be increased. It would operate kind of like how monk's works right now, except instead of healing + damage, it would be rate + range.
  • Initiate hero boost would take an inverse approach to monk's hero boost. While monk's hero boost deals astronomical amounts of damage with tiny amounts of healing, initiate's hero boost would provide astronomical amounts of healing with a modest damage boost. It'd be nice to also negate status effects like knockback, webbing, and cupid slow.

In short, RDB and enemy drain would be changed mechanically to where they can hold up on their own on a DPS char, and be useful where DPS chars are primarily needed (i.e. boss fights). Again, this is just my personal opinion, and I'm totally open to discussing ways to improve upon the concept of new abilities.

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I do like enemy drain a lot, reducing enemies resistances (therefore you experience the "damage" boost when viewing the numbers), reducing their strength and making them slower. Overall it's a really great idea as counterpart to hero boost. I wouldn't want another straight hero boost. We already have cats, hero boost and call to arms which effect hero damage output. Hence I like the method to increase damage done by reducing their resistance.


The only thing we are actually discussing about Enemy Drain is the fact that Enemy Drain doesn't show any effect on the bosses. The only reason why DPS initiates are a frowned upon besides the extreme increased mana costs compared to monk's abilities.

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gigazelle -- RDB improvement is fine, on top of Rate + Range a minor damage resistance boost(i.e.. Squire Guardian) will make it about as good as Monk's Tower Boost, since that heals the Towers as well. Or if that makes the Towers+Minions too OP, then we can simply have the Tower Healing on RDB similar to how much it heals on Monk's Boost. Given that Monk's Tower Boost heal amount is still low, but it can keep Auras and Traps at max health all the time, and usually these are ones that require the most healing/repairing. So having a heal on RDB seems nice.

And like EagleOne said I'd prefer Enemy Drain's core mechanic not changed, rather improved a bit. 
And if it doesn't work on Bosses, but if it has a Siphon Stance kind of healing added for herself and any other heroes under its effect then that makes her quite viable for Bosses without the need to apply the Enemy Drain's effect on Bosses. That way you can stay as a Initiate and other can actively heal themselves based on the damage done. In a way this would fit in well with the theme of this ability since you are "draining life out of enemies" by hitting them, and in turn "healing yourself". Of course, the healing would have to be quite high, so this would require someone to do testing on how Siphon Stance scales with the amount of points added into it. And there's currently no way to damage yourself enough in the Tavern to test it out! :D

I also dig the idea of Enemy Drain negating some knockback(excluding anything from Old One) and Cupid Bows being slightly ineffective, not completely since they can already be reflected using Beams, but the slow-down status effect lasts a bit less when under the Enemy Drain Aura.

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