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gigazelle

Updating Accessory Drop Locations

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@Veetoo quote:

Gonna leave the forums for a few weeks, the crap about lab is not worth my time but I WILL fight you guys if you touch the drop rates in lab, I HAVE bOUGHT this game and I have a say what you do with MY property.


See ya in a few weeks !!!!

Veetoo, we are not touching armor. This is about a few of the accs only.  Yes there are some in the community that would like to overhaul lab altogether but that isn't happening here.

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On the contrary, you are the one whose tone isn't proper. I asked you a simple question -- "Is there a specific reason you do not wish armor to be nerfed from Lab Assault?" and you are telling me I'm "fcked up", LOL, come on now.

I'm not saying your stuff is not self-farmed, rather its Lab Farmed. There is an obvious difference & imbalance between getting gear from survival and getting gear from Lab. But of course, you are not realizing that becasue you probably never played anything other than Lab Assault for armors? Why else would you defend such a broken system?

Just becasue you bought the game, that doesn't entitle you to exploit an obviously broken system to get end-game gear without actually having to work for it, like most of us did before Lab Assault was released. The game is not your property, all the rights of the game still belongs to TrendyENT. You only bought a license to play the game, and that does not entitle you to leech-off off a broken system to get your way through the game.

You are running away without providing any reasonable justifications to why Lab Assault should consistently drop better gear than survivals, which only proves how wrong you are and how you don't have any valid argument to make in your favour. Still waiting for a valid reason as to why Lab Assault shouldn't be nerfed for Armor as well.

To put it simply and in (extreme) layman's terms -- farming armor via Lab Assault is hardly any different than running survivals and maps with hacked auras -- both require zero effort, and reward you plenty for being a lazy bum.

But anyways, before leaving do tell why Lab Assault should reward someone more than a game of survival, that is to say you have any valid justification for it to do so, I'm sure you don't. Goodbye!

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I'm going to nip this one in the bud right here right now - Lab Assault armor is not on the table for discussion at this point in time. We are strictly talking about accessory drops. I will not let this thread be tainted with controversial arguments about armor when we've made such great progress in community support of updating accessories.

If you have thoughts to say on accessories, I implore you to share them. If you have thoughts to say on armor or someone's standing on how they farmed their armor, this is not where you want to be posting. It would be a shame to have this thread closed due to off-topic posting and flaming when we're seeing an overall positive reaction to even touching Lab Assault (by updating accessory locations).

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don't attack me for this but im going to be completely honest that in the modern day survivals take no effort if you have late game gear. i start marrago (the only map i can stand running anymore) on wave 18 upgrade for 2 waves (just beams and auras/traps) then afk till wave 35 is done. also with the last patch lab has been slightly worse for armor. i did 80 runs without a single sup or ult so basically i'm done running lab now. 

also lets take one more thing into consideration for lab assult and that being how "easy" the map is based off a challenge rating. now how many people here can solo lab without a BF Drill or even know how to do so. so if we take the fact that the map was intended not to be done with BF then does the loots seem reasonable. in my opinion yes the loots does seem reasonable note for my example i went dry for 80 runs with 4 afks mean in total 320 runs with one character. if you without BF Drill that is far worse than a survival. and in my opinion i think that is completely fair. so from a trendy game balance perspecitive not knowing aboiut the BF the map loots wise is completely balanced.

another topic i want to bring up is that the weapons are garbage compared to survival i just got a ult++ tower bone staff that is amazing from a marrago run. would never get that from lab assult. i think that you leave lab the way it is. if anything change the BF Drill and how it works with the map (but that is a strech and should not be done lightly). 

take away the acc to make more maps viable also it helps with making acc sets being that you can farm one map and don't need rng to get the acc you need from lab. 

also if you think VeeToO just sat on the belt and good free loot by paying then you mst not know anything about him. 

have a nice day

> Atherial

EDIT: sorry i posted this a bit ago but i did not refresh page to see the above pos.

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I respect gigazelle's post regarding not having this turned into a Lab nerf flame war thread, gievn how unanimous the support was for having accessories made exclusive, so I don't wish to carry this forward anymore.

However if you wish to argue why Lab Assault should not be nerfed, then I'm more than willing to counter you point by point, but on a separate thread, not here.
And just for the sake of it -- BF Drills were released almost a year before Lab Assault. It doesn't make sense to have a weapon nerfed becasue some other map is broken. If the Lab EV AI is fixed so that they don't fall off from the map, then the Lab armor is justified.  But how it stands right now, its not. You haven't played the game long enough if you think you only need BF Drill for Lab Assault.

About survivals being easy, tell that to someone who is at 2-3k stats.

Either way, make a separate thread if you want to debate about Lab Assault, I';d be happy to take on you guys! :-)

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BF Drill should not be changed because we'll be using it to farm GTH2 once the accessory drop locations change.  I mean, you can certainly clear the map without it, but why make GTH2 harder than it already is?

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ok i'm not getting into this and this will be my last post i am not suggesting to change the BF Drill as i know it is needed for GTH2 and other maps. i was just bringing up a point that trendy would have most likely balanced around the map being beat without a BF Drill cheeze. I was just pointing things out to spark some disscussion. i agree that this thread is for the acc whihc i see global appraise of this idea. which i 100% am for and agree on. But i don't feel that armor needs any further change in lab assult as i said above i will not run it anymore since i feel that it is not rewarding enough to justify the insane boredom. to me the only good thing from the map is the ult++ pets that drop. 

Also i am going to point out that i was running NMHCMM AQ with 2k on my main stat to wave 28 - 30 back in the day when i was farming up trans gear. so yes survivals are not that insane and back then i even did not use mana swirling i had my sum and would jump out of the defenses grab mana and jump back in to up took around 9 waves to get all triple star. now those were the days....

now lets end this here and continue the forum about what it is suppose to be on. and that is the cool acc being moved to lots of awesome maps that we can run instead of a boring grind fest known as lab assult.

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Much as I dislike LA, I dislike the holiday maps just as much, so I'd rather nothing be changed at all. At least this way I only have to do one hated challenge to get accessories. If you enjoy the holiday maps, go ahead and play them then and more power to you. Any changes to LA should have been done shortly after release, at this point it should be left alone.

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@Atherial quote:


Also i am going to point out that i was running NMHCMM AQ with 2k on my main stat to wave 28 - 30 back in the day when i was farming up trans gear. so yes survivals are not that insane and back then i even did not use mana swirling i had my sum and would jump out of the defenses grab mana and jump back in to up took around 9 waves to get all triple star. now those were the days....


hah, that is exactly what i did. fun times (apart from the steam dcs)


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@mayhem_zero quote:

Any changes to LA should have been done shortly after release, at this point it should be left alone.

Even though this is true, mindsets like that won't get us anywhere. Unfortunately not all problems can be solved by just by pretending its not there. Look at DDE for example, devs looked away and did not solve problems that were there from day 1 (for example you you could not kick people), and now it is too late and the game is truly dead.

Here however, we get a second chance, we have a CDT that gives us the possibility to change things about the game we love (or hate) before the playercount reaches 0. Even though the game is old we can make changes and fix mistakes that were made by the devs in the past. Instead of just looking away we can change things and/or balance things that are not right. Ofcourse making chances can't make everyone happy, but looking away can't solve anything either.

PS: The biggest problem from tinkers lab maps is insane being too good.

PPS: You dont need a (BF) drill to beat GTH2

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@Kirbykiller quote:

Even though this is true, mindsets like that won't get us anywhere. Unfortunately not all problems can be solved by just by pretending its not there

Agree so much

@Kirbykiller quote:

PS: The biggest problem from tinkers lab maps is insane being too good.


I cannot agree (if you mean Lab challenge and not the main map). NM really is as ezpz as insane and only marginally slower but drops great pets, accs and (used to) armor.


I am not sure what changing lab will do to the playercount (it could be as negative as positive in the short term) but changing it just feels like the right thing to do. However, I am a stat whore and would like to see an increase in Survival drop rates.....


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@mkjo quote:

I cannot agree (if you mean Lab challenge and not the main map). NM really is as ezpz as insane and only marginally slower but drops great pets, accs and (used to) armor.


I am not sure what changing lab will do to the playercount (it could be as negative as positive in the short term) but changing it just feels like the right thing to do. However, I am a stat whore and would like to see an increase in Survival drop rates.....

I meant both, the rewards are way to good for an insane difficulty map. Personally I find one shotting EVs easier then dying by bullet hells if your stats are to low (on nightmare).

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Guys! Can we please get back to the topic of accessories and accessory sets rather than debating about Lab Assault?! We know Lab Runners are upset that now they will actually have to put in an effort for getting top-end accessories, but let's not deviate from this thread.

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@Kirbykiller quote:Even though this is true, mindsets like that won't get us anywhere. Unfortunately not all problems can be solved by just by pretending its not there. Look at DDE for example, devs looked away and did not solve problems that were there from day 1 (for example you you could not kick people), and now it is too late and the game is truly dead.

Here however, we get a second chance, we have a CDT that gives us the possibility to change things about the game we love (or hate) before the playercount reaches 0. Even though the game is old we can make changes and fix mistakes that were made by the devs in the past. Instead of just looking away we can change things and/or balance things that are not right. Ofcourse making chances can't make everyone happy, but looking away can't solve anything either.

I have absolutely no problem with fixing LA (or other bugs, etc), but this is not what is being suggested. Taking away a few accessories to try force people to play maps that almost no one plays now (even for the achievements), is not fixing anything. LA will still drop nice accs with no effort. If you truly want to fix LA, then do so.

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Actually, Lab's generic accessories can't hold a candle against the GTH2, ToL, WW accessories stat-wise. And a majority of the playerbase is stat-hungry(I don't mean this is a bad way!). Having accessories made exclusive, AGAIN, is not forcing people to farm these maps. Before Lab Assault was released people would farm ToL and WW (GTH2 not so much becasue the accs were not as good as they are now) since the top-end accessories didn't drop anywhere. So something that should've been exclusive is being made exclusive again, don't see the problem here.
And for actual players that like a challenge these three maps are quite fun.
Things are being changed to how it was pre-Lab Assault. Something that is/was supposed to be exclusive from the get go is being fixed. I don't understand how are you still under the impression that this doesn't fix Lab Assault, at least in a way.
Besides, keeping accessories as exclusive helps the CDT for future accessory set effects addition for some older accessories.

It seems that you are just against this change just for the sake of it. Becasue this is quite honestly a great fix to the Lab Assault freebie problem.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Actually, Lab's generic accessories can't hold a candle against the GTH2, ToL, WW accessories stat-wise. And a majority of the playerbase is stat-hungry(I don't mean this is a bad way!). Having accessories made exclusive, AGAIN, is not forcing people to farm these maps. Before Lab Assault was released people would farm ToL and WW (GTH2 not so much becasue the accs were not as good as they are now) since the top-end accessories didn't drop anywhere. So something that should've been exclusive is being made exclusive again, don't see the problem here.
And for actual players that like a challenge these three maps are quite fun.
Things are being changed to how it was pre-Lab Assault. Something that is/was supposed to be exclusive from the get go is being fixed. I don't understand how are you still under the impression that this doesn't fix Lab Assault, at least in a way.
Besides, keeping accessories as exclusive helps the CDT for future accessory set effects addition for some older accessories.

It seems that you are just against this change just for the sake of it. Becasue this is quite honestly a great fix to the Lab Assault freebie problem.

I don't mind a challenge...still don't like the holiday maps though.


The only reason we are discussing this is due to your post about making the holiday maps great again. How is taking accs from another map going to make those maps great again, exactly? You either enjoy them or you don't. Not sure why you are so insistent on this change which will have no bearing on the maps you apparently no longer think are great.


I'm curious about the exclusive part, do we know for a fact that Trendy did not intend to include these accs in LA?


Again, you will still get ult++ pets, high end armour, and accs with 300+ stats for no effort. Stop saying this is a fix for LA.

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You don't enjoy them, then that's fine. Majority of people do.
And for them it is not justified that the maps they farm have their rewards drop on a obviously broken map.
There is no incentive to farm exclusive accessories how it is right now.
Personally I don't enjoy CD(mainly coz rewards are too low) and a lot of other maps. But I don't complain becasue if I don't like to farm a map, I should be perfectly okay with not having the reward weps from those maps. You can't have everything your way, there has to be a balance.

This is an obvious fix to Lab Assault because now it makes it fair to GTH2, ToL, WW, Palantir & CD farmers to farm these maps and not worry about lab-runners getting the exclusive accessories of these maps without any effort. So if you want the absolutely top end 400-500 stat accessories, get off the conveyor belt and play the game. And if you actually care to read that thread, I've categorically mentioned that it is a "partial fix".

Trendy may not have intended for these accs to be exclusive, but does that mean they shouldn't? Devs make mistakes, and why shouldn't this be fixed? You tell me 3 solid reasons why Lab Assault should drop WW, ToL, GTH2, CD and Palantir accessories and if they are convincing enough I might re-consider my suggestion about exclusivity.

If you're a critic of Lab Assault, then I don't see why you should be against this change.

As far as "making them great again", it's just a dank meme I used for the title. Don't take everything at face value. #Facepalm.
These maps are already fun, the reason behind that post was/is -- in the time taken to complete these maps, one could do 8-12 lab runs and have a chance at finding accs from these maps + armors + weps + pets all that 4 times. So even at a minimum of 8 lab runs -- you get 288 items in 35-40 mins versus a paltry 12 - 30 items in 35 mins(both assuming +3 afk chars). So there is a crazy imbalance here, which you obviously don't seem to understand.

Either way, you can still choose to whine about it, but a majority of the playerbase is in support of exclusivity including some Lab Runners. It was a community decision, and not based on just me alone, so stop saying that only I am insisting on this change.

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@Black Mamba quote:
I am not "whining", just posting my opinions.


The majority of the player base have never even played the holiday maps, so I'm not sure how you can say they enjoy them & are in favour of exclusivity (did I miss a poll somewhere??). I think you mean you and the handful of people that used to farm those maps. The only exception would be WW because it was/is farmed for coal.


As far as the level of effort in farming LA versus other maps, most maps AFAIK are farmed mostly AFK anyhow, so no real difference there. And I'm not understanding what fairness has to do with DD, so what if someone else can get the same item from another map?


I think that we should move things in the exact opposite direction of exclusivity so that people don't have to farm the same 2 or 3 maps over and over and over. I suggest that once you have beaten a map, there should be a possibility of that map's rewards/items being awarded/dropped in any map. So for example you could play Ramparts and get an Obsidian weapon, of course with the level of difficulty affecting the item quality.

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[[31851,users]] quote:
As far as the level of effort in farming LA versus other maps, most maps AFAIK are farmed mostly AFK anyhow, so no real difference there. And I'm not understanding what fairness has to do with DD, so what if someone else can get the same item from another map?

Do tell me how you can AFK these maps, of course AFK means -- you just build entirely in the 1st and 2nd waves, then leave the game as it is, come back 30-35mins later and you have got your stuff without moving your characters an inch.
So on that basis do tell which of these maps are AFK-able -- GTH2, Akaititi, WW, ToL, CD, Palantir.
You are comparing maps that can be steamrolled with high stats(something which most people don't have, yet) versus (ZERO)effort required in Lab Assault. ROFLMFAO. Dude... just stop it already, my guts can't take this anymore, seriously... I mean... do you really think that is a fair comparison? Good God.
I have a feeling that you are a closet Lab Runner and you're totally upset that you will no longer be able to farm top-end accessories from Lab Assault without putting in any effort whatsoever. Tough luck, buddy, it was due.

And if there is no need for fairness/exclusivity, why is there any need for any map other than Lab Assault? Let's just have ToL, GTH2, WW, Palantir removed from the game, becasue the stuff which should be exclusive to these maps already drops on Lab Assault with the exception of Coals & Christmas Weapons. Fairness has got absolutely everything to do with DD, it brings in diversity, something which you are absolutely failing to understand, for some reason.

And I don't know what was your thought process before making this suggestion, but it sounds like an absolutely ridiculous and silly argument that you want Obsidians(and other weapons/items) to drop on all maps once they are unlocked! @#MegaFacepalm. It's not even worth telling you why its a silly argument.
I'm done with you man! I can't debate/argue anymore with your silly points, sorry but that's just too much fluff to handle!
Have a good one. Thanks for your time though.

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    [[70526,users]] Mamba

Try to keep it civil. I agree with your opinions, but not everyone does, and that's fine. The whole point is too see if there is interest or opposition to this idea, and opposition should be just as valuable. We don't want to make changes that a lot of people do not want.

    [[31851,users]] quote:
    I think that we should move things in the exact opposite direction of exclusivity so that people don't have to farm the same 2 or 3 maps over and over and over. I suggest that once you have beaten a map, there should be a possibility of that map's rewards/items being awarded/dropped in any map. So for example you could play Ramparts and get an Obsidian weapon, of course with the level of difficulty affecting the item quality.

This is a really interesting idea. It goes against what DD has been like for the most part though, and I don't think people will want such a radical change. Even so it is worth discussing :)
-- The problem is that this would make everyone play the same map, the hardest one which gives the best rewards, for EVERYTHING. The good thing is that from that one map, everyone would get really diverse rewards, which means more options :) No more choosing between 3 high-end weapons etc. However, it goes against what DD has been for most of its life, play lots of different maps for lots of different rewards; this for me is why I love the game so much. That is why I am supporting this change to make people play different maps to get different accessories.

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Morning,

Maybe I'm not following this all correctly, so someone please tell me what I am missing... This is what I understand so far:

-Lab Assaults currently drop a bunch of high end accessories.

-Other maps had accessories made for them, that were exclusive to that map, but now can drop on Lab Assaults


I used to play this game quite a lot, but due to the mac/linux break about a year ago, it has taken me until now to be able to play again.. so my knowledge in many things is lacking (sorry).


My Questions:

Are the drops in Lab Assault as good as the versions from the original maps? If the answer is "no" - then why remove them from Lab Assaults?

After those accessories in question are removed from Lab Assaults, will Lab Assaults have any accessories left? If "yes" - Are those accessories as good as the ones that will be removed? If the answer is "yes" - then what is the point of all of this? Is this only for people who want their character to have a beard and hat that matches their santa imposter Barbarian? 

And if there will be no accessories left in Lab Assaults: I don't support this. 

And if there are accessories left, and they are lower quality than from the holiday maps: Why not just lower the quality/stats on all accessories in Lab Assaults? If you want the best versions, play the original maps. If you are happy with not as good quality, continue to run Lab Assaults.


(I have further questions/comments on this whole thing, but before I get there, I'd like to know what I am missing from the current discussion - sorry for my lack of knowledge in this area)


TLDR - Why not just lower the quality on the Lab Assault drops instead of removing them?  

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@Orri quote:

Are the drops in Lab Assault as good as the versions from the original maps?

Yes.


@Orri quote:

After those accessories in question are removed from Lab Assaults, will Lab Assaults have any accessories left? If "yes" - Are those accessories as good as the ones that will be removed?

Yes, there will be accessories left. No, they're not as good as the ones removed.


@Orri quote:

And if there are accessories left, and they are lower quality than from the holiday maps: Why not just lower the quality/stats on all accessories in Lab Assaults? If you want the best versions, play the original maps. If you are happy with not as good quality, continue to run Lab Assaults.

I think that would pretty much come down to the same thing, so I still like that idea. I think it might be more annoying to implement though, I don't think that it'd be worth the extra time spent on that.

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bergzwerver: Thank you for your answers.

I think the first thing I would like to identify is what the "problem" is that is trying to be fixed. If the goal is to make the Lab Assaults not so over rewarding, then removing the accessories does not fix the problem. If the goal is to make the holiday maps great again, then I would think making their rewards better is the more correct approach.

DD already has a precedent of the reward items from missions to appear as generic loot in other missions. Such as the Van Wolfenstein reward from the halloween missions appearing as "Mythical Electric Lupine Bow" as random drops from other missions. The argument of removing the accessories from Lab Assault because they are rewards from other missions seems to go against that idea. If the reward item from Winter Wonderland was "Santa's Actual Beard", then i would say "Santa's Actual Beard" should not drop from Lab Assaults. But since the item you get from Lab Assaults is "Supreme Santa Beard Mask", it fits into the pattern of a generic item dropping that was a reward item. 

If the argument holds, and removing the accessories from Lab Assaults is the solution to "holiday maps arent as great as they used to be", then I would like to argue to remove lupine bows from random drop tables, only to be a reward from halloween maps, as the logic follows the same path.

I like the idea of making sure the rewards from the holiday maps may be better than the versions that come from Lab Assaults, but I dont like the idea of removing those accessories from Lab Assaults.

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@Orri quote:
If the argument holds, and removing the accessories from Lab Assaults is the solution to "holiday maps arent as great as they used to be", then I would like to argue to remove lupine bows from random drop tables, only to be a reward from halloween maps, as the logic follows the same path.

You are kind of right here. Unfortunately, the situation is not quite the same for, say, lupine bows.

1.  The map it originally dropped on is not a late game map and is trivial for anyone with decent stats.

2.  The drops from the original map are inferior to the drops on other, late game maps. 


To get you back up to speed, the recent patch made the drop quality on the maps for accessories (palantir, ToL, etc) comparable to the quality they are on lab.

As you can see, removing lupine bows from random drop tables does not "make the halloween maps great again", it just effectively removes a useful weapon from the game... And it can never be great anyway because it is too easy now, it would make no sense to have high-end gear or useful weapons drop from a map that is meant for 1k or lower stats.


@Orri quote:

I think the first thing I would like to identify is what the "problem" is that is trying to be fixed. If the goal is to make the Lab Assaults not so over rewarding, then removing the accessories does not fix the problem. If the goal is to make the holiday maps great again, then I would think making their rewards better is the more correct approach.


The problem we are trying to fix is making holiday maps relevant again. We are trying to do that by making them have useful, unique rewards. I don't really see a reason why making these specific accessories on lab worse is preferable to simply removing them entirely from the map. Of course, lab is broken anyway, but this will not, as you said, fix that. Nor is it meant to. That might come later...

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Halloween Spook 1 & 2 in itself are Holiday Maps.
Therefore its reward weapon's core drop variants drop on HOLIDAY MAPS(WW / Silent Night), or are given as random rewards upon map completion for HOLIDAY MAPS(WW / Silent Night / ToL / GTH2).
The only regular maps that they drop on are mainly -- Bonus Maps, such as -- TD, KG, Akatiti, Tinkerer's, Embermount, Buccaneer Bay, and on QFTLES Maps(but the drop chance is significantly lower on these). They don't drop on every map.
So comparing that to Lab Assault which has access to all top-end accessories from any map(pre-CDT), is wrong. Although I wouldn't have any issues if Halloween Weps are removed from maps that aren't tagged as "Holiday" specifically, this includes Bonus Maps. It's not like the Halloween Weapons are hard to find and besides the Van-Wolf core drop, any other weapon is pretty much low-level and won't have any significant impact if they stop dropping.

As far as accessories will be left on Lab Assault or not, there are plenty of accessories still left. And they have a good chance to spawn with 330-360 stats. So in a way not much is being nerfed in Lab Assault, only that you can no longer sit on a conveyor belt and have access to other top-end 400-500 stat accessories anymore. Which is totally fair, and which was the case before Lab Assault anyways. And this is something that should've been fixed back in the day itself.

I don't understand why some of you guys are so much in love with Lab Assault? When everyone knows that -- it's an obviously broken challenge and completely kills any sort of legit game-progression, and has totally changed how maps are farmed for gear(armor) so much so that now-a-days the only reason you'd want to farm a map would be either WW for Coal or Akatiti/Moonbase/BucBay/Embermount for weapons. Seriously, just stop supporting Lab Assault already.
Why would you be against any change that helps people get away from this highly exploitable map and play the game how it is meant to be played? It's beyond me to understand the opposition towards nerfing Lab Assault.

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