I'm skeptical Trendy knows what real End game is all about

@geo981010 quote:

@Vagnar quote:

Diablo 3 obliterated Diablo 2 in all time sales btw.

Britney Spear's "Baby One More Time" has outsold every Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, Radiohead, U2, (name the other 5 million bands that are better here) album, btw. :)

Bad comparison. You have to use another Britney Spears, or at least another mainstream pop song to compare. They were comparing a game to its sequel, not to another game in another genre.

@Vagnar quote:

12 million sold year one. Over 30 million lifetime. The pre hype wasn't its only moment of glory.

Like i said ROS salvaged it and turned it into a decent game. Not nearly as good as D2 but a decent ARPG on its own. I guess D2 was before your time if you think D3 is even close lol. 

@Vagnar quote:

@geo981010 quote:

@Vagnar quote:

Diablo 3 obliterated Diablo 2 in all time sales btw.

Britney Spear's "Baby One More Time" has outsold every Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, Radiohead, U2, (name the other 5 million bands that are better here) album, btw. :)

Bad comparison. You have to use another Britney Spears, or at least another mainstream pop song to compare. They were comparing a game to its sequel, not to another game in another genre.

U2 is mainstream pop, at least since 1988.

But the point was popular <> better, and I picked Ms Spears because I don't think anyone can argue against that case. You can say that Paranoid or Jack Johnson or OK Computer or even Actung Baby is a better album than it, or you can be wrong :)

Anyway, my point is that D3 is extremely popular has done extremely well, but people online still want to claim it's a failure of a game and D2 is superior in all ways. Those people are stubborn and deliberately blind to the reality. They accuse Blizzard of not listening, but that's completely untrue. They just didn't listen to THEM. They wanted D3 to be its own entity that appealed to a much larger audience, and they achieved it.

If you like D2 more, good on you, but **** talking D3 like it was a failure and a mistake honestly is just silly.

Same applies here. The devs have a lot more data than just you telling them they're stupid and you wanna treat them like dogs and bap them with a newspaper like they have no clue what's going on with their own game.

We're here for feedback, but trying to bully them just hurts any cause we may have. 

@Pegazul quote:

@Vagnar quote:

12 million sold year one. Over 30 million lifetime. The pre hype wasn't its only moment of glory.

Like i said ROS salvaged it and turned it into a decent game. Not nearly as good as D2 but a decent ARPG on its own. I guess D2 was before your time if you think D3 is even close lol. 

I'm 35. I tried D2 but it wasn't for me. D3 I've been enjoying off and on for years. It's not my favorite game by any means.

And [[84908,users]], we can argue semantics, but you knlw my point. If you want to compare DD1 to DD2/Diablo to Diablo, you have to compare Britney to Britney. 

@Vagnar quote:

Anyway, my point is that D3 is extremely popular has done extremely well, but people online still want to claim it's a failure of a game and D2 is superior in all ways. Those people are stubborn and deliberately blind to the reality. They accuse Blizzard of not listening, but that's completely untrue. They just didn't listen to THEM. They wanted D3 to be its own entity that appealed to a much larger audience, and they achieved it.

If you like D2 more, good on you, but **** talking D3 like it was a failure and a mistake honestly is just silly.

Same applies here. The devs have a lot more data than just you telling them they're stupid and you wanna treat them like dogs and bap them with a newspaper like they have no clue what's going on with their own game.

We're here for feedback, but trying to bully them just hurts any cause we may have. 

D3 is not that great of a game, It lacks a good end game I feel.  But games having good end games is a real problem for most that are not competitive.  People were looking forward to there PvP arena in D3 that they did not deliver sadly.  That was the fun I had in D2 was PvP.

@Vagnar quote:

@Pegazul quote:

@Vagnar quote:

12 million sold year one. Over 30 million lifetime. The pre hype wasn't its only moment of glory.

Like i said ROS salvaged it and turned it into a decent game. Not nearly as good as D2 but a decent ARPG on its own. I guess D2 was before your time if you think D3 is even close lol. 

I'm 35. I tried D2 but it wasn't for me. D3 I've been enjoying off and on for years. It's not my favorite game by any means.

And geo, we can argue semantics, but you knlw my point. If you want to compare DD1 to DD2/Diablo to Diablo, you have to compare Britney to Britney. 

Dude did you just rage on people speaking their mind? If they want to think D2 is better then D3 then they could. Is it fact D2 in ways better then D3 yes. Is it fact D3 is better then D2 yes. It all matters on preference. Actually Geo can compare whomever or whatever he or she likes.

Noooo lol. You guys are hopping on a different point.

Not defending D3 here. My point is that D3 is D3, not D2, and it was not a failure. Financially, it was a massive success and still has a very big fan base.

My original comment was directed at the attitude that was some failure because it didn't live up to fans of D2s expectations. They wanted D2 again but they didn't get it.

But no, Luke, not in this context. We might as well compare Final Fantasy or Call of Duty  to DD2 if we wanna blanket Black Sabbath and Britney Slears together.

starwars ep 1 made more money than 4, 5 or 6. Yet most would agree its a turd in comparison.

D3 isn't a failure. Its a turd compared to D2.

FFS it's like talking to monkeys.

@Vagnar quote: The devs have a lot more data than just you telling them they're stupid and you wanna treat them like dogs and bap them with a newspaper like they have no clue what's going on with their own game.

We're here for feedback, but trying to bully them just hurts any cause we may have. 

They are doing a fine job at losing players then, must be on the right path and we must be in the wrong.

No one is bullying anyone, I'm stating the facts. Which is understandably hard for people to hear when it comes to a game they enjoy. Game is fun sure, but in short bursts.

Trendy can reel new players in, but can they make them stay?

Not yet. Passives system is horrible for frustrating RNG, multiple NM's is there idea at progressing players in gently. Yet the way the game is atm, they will get further then they should thanks to OP towers and enemies not being significantly scaled for 2 years.

They will reach end game pretty damn quick and then what?

Big games are coming out soon this holiday season. Trendy needs to bring their A game.

I'm still awaiting this hook DD1 had.

@Vagnar quote:

FFS it's like talking to monkeys.

lol ever consider that your the monkey ? :P

@Vagnar quote:

Noooo lol. You guys are hopping on a different point.

Not defending D3 here. My point is that D3 is D3, not D2, and it was not a failure. Financially, it was a massive success and still has a very big fan base.

My original comment was directed at the attitude that was some failure because it didn't live up to fans of D2s expectations. They wanted D2 again but they didn't get it.

But no, Luke, not in this context. We might as well compare Final Fantasy or Call of Duty  to DD2 if we wanna blanket Black Sabbath and Britney Slears together.

You can compare anything to anything. It life you have mind of your own. You still don't get Vagnar. They can do or say whatever they like its their life.  Thats the thing about life it comes with choices you can make and I decide DD1 over DD2 until Trendy make vast improvement on endgame. So no matter what on heaven and earth you say. I will still say DD2 is lackluster.

@Vagnar quote:

FFS it's like talking to monkeys.

Humans are a Primate. 

Dont insult your distant cousins. lol This world

Its more correctly to say our since I am human to but I am going to stick with your....

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Not one time did I feel completely OP even with my 7.2k Summoner and built up characters. It had such addictive gameplay and polish. It may of been hard to break through to NM initially, but when you did it was so rewarding.

Enemies were there to *** you up, unlike this game. They are here to come and shake your hand. We had dangerous enemies such as Spiders, Sharken, Djinn and Goblin Copters. Even to this day Sharken are feared after how many years?

Nightmare in DD1 wasn't rewarding because it required so much gear grinding to get into. It was rewarding because of how difficult the enemies were because of their different abilities and designs. The massive grind just to play it was nothing more than a turn off that will do nothing but reduce the amount of players in DD2 if they take that approach. Less players mean less money. Less money means less content for all of us. I agree completely that more difficult enemies need to be added to the game. I just don't agree they should be locked behind an obscene ipower "requirement".

@Zinec quote:

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Not one time did I feel completely OP even with my 7.2k Summoner and built up characters. It had such addictive gameplay and polish. It may of been hard to break through to NM initially, but when you did it was so rewarding.

Enemies were there to *** you up, unlike this game. They are here to come and shake your hand. We had dangerous enemies such as Spiders, Sharken, Djinn and Goblin Copters. Even to this day Sharken are feared after how many years?

Nightmare in DD1 wasn't rewarding because it required so much gear grinding to get into. It was rewarding because of how difficult the enemies were because of their different abilities and designs. The massive grind just to play it was nothing more than a turn off that will do nothing but reduce the amount of players in DD2 if they take that approach. Less players mean less money. Less money means less content for all of us. I agree completely that more difficult enemies need to be added to the game. I just don't agree they should be locked behind an obscene ipower "requirement".

Zinec are you going to say NM in DD1 wasn't good. It was amazing. Nightmare hardcore was so hard players started to use cheat programs. That is what call a nightmare mode done right except for the cheating part lol. Trendy also notice it was extremely  hard that why. They started to hand out candy in DD2.

@Zinec quote:

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Not one time did I feel completely OP even with my 7.2k Summoner and built up characters. It had such addictive gameplay and polish. It may of been hard to break through to NM initially, but when you did it was so rewarding.

Enemies were there to *** you up, unlike this game. They are here to come and shake your hand. We had dangerous enemies such as Spiders, Sharken, Djinn and Goblin Copters. Even to this day Sharken are feared after how many years?

Nightmare in DD1 wasn't rewarding because it required so much gear grinding to get into. It was rewarding because of how difficult the enemies were because of their different abilities and designs. The massive grind just to play it was nothing more than a turn off that will do nothing but reduce the amount of players in DD2 if they take that approach. Less players mean less money. Less money means less content for all of us. I agree completely that more difficult enemies need to be added to the game. I just don't agree they should be locked behind an obscene ipower "requirement".

The turn off as you so put it, is being able to progress so easily in this game that the end game doesn't make a difference.

You say it was hard to progress into NM in DD1. Damn right it was, but that's how it should be, not everyone and their dog should be at end game immediately. If you want the best gear you should earn it, as long as the game is rewarding you will play. Having NM modes which ease you into each one removes the rewarding factor people felt when they finally broke through.

When you hand NM on a silver platter it becomes an all you can eat buffet. Which is exactly what killed off DDE, NM was fine and then they brought in OP armor which trivialized it. People progressed too fast, had nothing to do and moved on.

They removed the essence of the game and it's exactly the same situation now.

However thankfully end game changes are coming and who knows? we may be able to finally push characters to their limits and see what they can actually do. Instead of face rolling content.

its easy to a harder dd2 dont wipe most game hate it me to just raise the level cap bij 20 and add 2 or 3 more nm. where is ipw gear 700 is crap so for the most players on end game cant afk you have to up towers and rep it its olmost inposble solo. and just add hardcore mode >.< make the game more fun if you die and you are solo you see a oger ruin all you def and you cant do *** to stop it. and make same lane poison resist  or water so gamers dont only use 4 pdt buf and noting els. and test your char better make a beta run all the char you put out are nurf there are to op. i now many me olso want to help you test your chars and give feetback and you can tweak it so its good in the game not op the first week. 

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

You say it was hard to progress into NM in DD1. Damn right it was, but that's how it should be, not everyone and their dog should be at end game immediately. If you want the best gear you should earn it, as long as the game is rewarding you will play. Having NM modes which ease you into each one removes the rewarding factor people felt when they finally broke through.

I can still remember the struggle in DD1 to break into NM mode, but also i can remember how hard it was to break into NM4 in DD2 back when the lanes had Physical or magical resistance. I grinded Gates of dragonfall, i could kill the 3 wave with the ogre, sometimes i got loot that was good for me, then the 2 ogres would rek my face.

Didnt feel much different to me than in DD1, but after you had good loot on every char DD2 just got boring faster than DD1. I dont know if the NM4 wall is still hard to climb now, i guess not since you can just farm your toxic shock with 100% Drop rate on NM3 and gg. 

I agree with Zinec in that the game needs more challenging enemies and not just a unclimbable wall that is named Hell mode or whatever. It should be a slow and tedious climb to the top, maybe a inbetween of DD1 and DD2s current state, but with scaling the further you get into it. Maybe even have a nightmare Story mode where each map gets harder. Also Trendy could copy a bit from games like Warframe (Best running Indie FtP i know of) and veteran games like WoW and Diablo on how to make endgame interesting.

All of this has been discussed a dozen times, but in the end all we can do is hope that trendy nails the end game and makes DD great again.

I think DD2 needs something like legendary cases to get during the playtime or for milestones and then to be opened with gems. CS:Go has a huge playerbase and I'm sure it's because the semi-legal gambling to addict youngsters into buying ingame currency is a good way to boost the playerbase and make DD2 great again.

And with a bigger playerbase in a yet not officially released game we get to loose all our problems and demands in no time. Also I'm not sure if we should still talk about a way to improve DD2 but rather try to focus on what DD2 does bad and find a game which has potential to be copied in this matter.

#makedd2greatagain2016

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

The turn off as you so put it, is being able to progress so easily in this game that the end game doesn't make a difference.

You say it was hard to progress into NM in DD1. Damn right it was, but that's how it should be, not everyone and their dog should be at end game immediately. If you want the best gear you should earn it, as long as the game is rewarding you will play. Having NM modes which ease you into each one removes the rewarding factor people felt when they finally broke through.

When you hand NM on a silver platter it becomes an all you can eat buffet. Which is exactly what killed off DDE, NM was fine and then they brought in OP armor which trivialized it. People progressed too fast, had nothing to do and moved on.

They removed the essence of the game and it's exactly the same situation now.

However thankfully end game changes are coming and who knows? we may be able to finally push characters to their limits and see what they can actually do. Instead of face rolling content.

I'm not sure you even understand what you're saying. Let's use your logic. You're saying that if you were to give everyone a perfect set of Nightmare gear in DD1 that they'd immediately be able to beat every level of Nightmare? You said it yourself that you still found Nightmare challenging even after getting geared. If a game is still challenging then that means there's still a feeling of accomplishment when you beat it.

DDE wasn't a failure because gear was too easy to get. It was a failure because the gear itself was overpowered for the content provided. Overpowered gear doesn't belong in this game period. Ever. It's why I don't believe gear should be the focal point of the game. The strategy layer of Nightmare 4 in DD2 is what needs work. We don't need a "Hell" mode. We need the current modes fixed.

Saying that people should be locked out of the highest difficulty simply because they can't dedicate enough time to grind out gear just reeks of elitism. It would also mean reducing the longevity of the game for most people because most people wouldn't even get to play the most rewarding part.

I guess the problem here is that the two of us have very different things that make us feel rewarded. For me it's creating new strategies to beat content and then finally overcoming it. For you it seems to be getting a new piece of gear. Gear for me is just a means to an end. Although, I do like collecting unique items such as the various pets in DD1.

@Zinec quote:

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

The turn off as you so put it, is being able to progress so easily in this game that the end game doesn't make a difference.

You say it was hard to progress into NM in DD1. Damn right it was, but that's how it should be, not everyone and their dog should be at end game immediately. If you want the best gear you should earn it, as long as the game is rewarding you will play. Having NM modes which ease you into each one removes the rewarding factor people felt when they finally broke through.

When you hand NM on a silver platter it becomes an all you can eat buffet. Which is exactly what killed off DDE, NM was fine and then they brought in OP armor which trivialized it. People progressed too fast, had nothing to do and moved on.

They removed the essence of the game and it's exactly the same situation now.

However thankfully end game changes are coming and who knows? we may be able to finally push characters to their limits and see what they can actually do. Instead of face rolling content.

I'm not sure you even understand what you're saying. Let's use your logic. You're saying that if you were to give everyone a perfect set of Nightmare gear in DD1 that they'd immediately be able to beat every level of Nightmare? You said it yourself that you still found Nightmare challenging even after getting geared. If a game is still challenging then that means there's still a feeling of accomplishment when you beat it.

DDE wasn't a failure because gear was too easy to get. It was a failure because the gear itself was overpowered for the content provided. Overpowered gear doesn't belong in this game period. Ever. It's why I don't believe gear should be the focal point of the game. The strategy layer of Nightmare 4 in DD2 is what needs work. We don't need a "Hell" mode. We need the current modes fixed.

Saying that people should be locked out of the highest difficulty simply because they can't dedicate enough time to grind out gear just reeks of elitism. It would also mean reducing the longevity of the game for most people because most people wouldn't even get to play the most rewarding part.

I guess the problem here is that the two of us have very different things that make us feel rewarded. For me it's creating new strategies to beat content and then finally overcoming it. For you it seems to be getting a new piece of gear. Gear for me is just a means to an end. Although, I do like collecting unique items such as the various pets in DD1.

You can't be this dumb.

DD1 was challenging because every NM map scaled differently and so did every challenge. The reason why DD1 was always a challenge is because of the the map layout and enemies were a threat. In DD1 a perfect set of armor won't save you if you spawn camp enemies like you do in this game, in DD1 you actually had to use something you seem to be afraid of called "strategy".  Now if you have a perfect set in DD2 it's far more forgiving, because for 2 years NM hasn't changed significantly since it's debut to reach that difficulty.

Did you even play DDE? As soon as Corrupt and Divine gear dropped it was its death sentence and the drop rate was insane, it's similar to how bad this game feeds you out Legendaries atm. The only difference is the rng system is brutal aligning the right stats, with the right passives and at the right ipwr level.

We do need a Hell mode and it's good that it frightens you, because that's exactly what it should do. Death should matter, bring back hardcore mode, enemies should be strategically challenging and hit like a ***ing truck, just like they did in NM in DD1.

Don't use the elitist card on me. I'm the type of player that has always helped people out. It's nothing to do with being an elitist, it's to do with how entitled players are atm. They must reach Hell mode the very instant it's released. No how about you earn it like everyone else. Breaking into NM wasn't easy and took me a ton of time to do so as well, but do you see me cry like yourself ?

You want people to help you, well there are a ton of people out there willing to do so as long as you want to be helped and not leech. No one has an issue helping anyone if they say " hey i have real life commitments, do you mind helping me progress because I'm stuck". I would be like no worries bro, I can understand that. Lets do some Hell mode to help you out, sure your time is limited but a few runs will help you progress.

God forbid we have any social aspect in this game, than the annoying forced invites to join a group when you are chilling in the social tavern..

Lets look at from another perspective then. Why should a player who spends the time gearing up and learning how to play the game and actually use their brain to build be in the same position as someone who just started and can reach end game in a few hours.

What in the hell is the point of the game if you can just do that?

Actually we are more alike then you think. What I enjoyed about playing NM the most in DD1 was getting annihilated if I placed one thing stupidly, it taught me proper placement for certain maps and you actually paid for your mistakes. Which made you  a better player.

Being constantly challenged in NM was my addiction, the gear came in time.

Gear has nothing to do what drives me to play. Especially not in this game, fighting RNG over RNG for content which can be face rolled with lesser gear. Incredible balance we have here. When we can use NM3 gear to beat NM4 content you have to wonder what the hell is the point of these meaningless NM levels.

Guys end it. You started insulting each other from the beginning of this thread and ignored each and every post about to #makedd2greatagain2016. Failure, failure failure, my brain trembles, trembles, trembles, the paiiiin.

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

DD1 was challenging because every NM map scaled differently and so did every challenge. The reason why DD1 was always a challenge is because of the the map layout and enemies were a threat. In DD1 a perfect set of armor won't save you if you spawn camp enemies like you do in this game, in DD1 you actually had to use something you seem to be afraid of called "strategy".  Now if you have a perfect set in DD2 it's far more forgiving, because for 2 years NM hasn't changed significantly since it's debut to reach that difficulty.

We aren't even disagreeing here so I'm not sure why you're pointing it out. I was just pointing out that the gear grind only made Nightmare accessible not easily winnable. New players still couldn't hack it even with the gear. So I don't know why keeping the grind is so important to you.

Did you even play DDE? As soon as Corrupt and Divine gear dropped it was its death sentence and the drop rate was insane, it's similar to how bad this game feeds you out Legendaries atm. The only difference is the rng system is brutal aligning the right stats, with the right passives and at the right ipwr level.

Again wasn't even disagreeing.

We do need a Hell mode and it's good that it frightens you, because that's exactly what it should do. Death should matter, bring back hardcore mode, enemies should be strategically challenging and hit like a ***ing truck, just like they did in NM in DD1.

*sigh* It's these kinds of paragraphs that make you "sound" like an elitist to begin with. After playing video games for over 20 years nothing can "scare" me. If it really bothered me I'd just move on. No reason to stress over something inconsequential. Agreed in regards to the enemies, though.

Don't use the elitist card on me. I'm the type of player that has always helped people out. It's nothing to do with being an elitist, it's to do with how entitled players are atm. They must reach Hell mode the very instant it's released. No how about you earn it like everyone else. Breaking into NM wasn't easy and took me a ton of time to do so as well, but do you see me cry like yourself ?

Didn't realize discussing the merits of gameplay aspects was considered crying. I thought discussing end game was the entire reason this topic existed. I didn't like the grind. Neither did a lot of other people that also played nightmare. The question is whether it's necessary at all, which is a matter of opinion.

You want people to help you, well there are a ton of people out there willing to do so as long as you want to be helped and not leech. No one has an issue helping anyone if they say " hey i have real life commitments, do you mind helping me progress because I'm stuck". I would be like no worries bro, I can understand that. Lets do some Hell mode to help you out, sure your time is limited but a few runs will help you progress.

Funny... I played solo mostly in DD1 specifically because of how toxic most people are. But, whatever you say.

Lets look at from another perspective then. Why should a player who spends the time gearing up and learning how to play the game and actually use their brain to build be in the same position as someone who just started and can reach end game in a few hours.

Except they're not in the same position. They won't be aware of any of the same strategies as an experienced player unless of course they looked them up. Which is going to be true no matter how end game is done. Also, I have to ask how you are even affected by that? Why does it offend you so much that a newer player would be playing the same difficulty as you(though likely not excelling at)?

What in the hell is the point of the game if you can just do that?

The same point as any game: Entertainment value.

Actually we are more alike then you think. What I enjoyed about playing NM the most in DD1 was getting annihilated if I placed one thing stupidly, it taught me proper placement for certain maps and you actually paid for your mistakes. Which made you  a better player.

Which is why a new player still wouldn't be on the same level as an experienced player even with the same gear. Let's use an easily understandable example: World of Warcraft. Take two people of the same class with the same gear and the same spec/talents but one is new and the other is a vet. The vet is going to crush them like a bug. It won't even be a contest. It's the same concept in DD.

Gear has nothing to do what drives me to play. Especially not in this game, fighting RNG over RNG for content which can be face rolled with lesser gear. Incredible balance we have here. When we can use NM3 gear to beat NM4 content you have to wonder what the hell is the point of these meaningless NM levels.

Er, technically you used pre-Nightmare gear to get into Nightmare content even in DD1. While you shouldn't be able to beat all of NM4 with NM3 gear the game requires that you at least get into NM4 with lesser gear. If you couldn't then it would be a catch 22 where no one would be able to play it.

Anyways, I think I'm out for this discussion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Eh I'm not going to re-quote that, so lets sum it up abit with dot points.

• Wanting a better challenge doesn't make me an elitist
• Alot of people enjoyed the grind in DD1 over DD2 as it was far more rewarding
  
• You sound sour with your social experience and that's kind of sad to be only soloing in DD1. My experience was different to yours. I met a ton of awesome people through player shops
  
• Entitlement of players is what annoys me, not how much time they have to play
  
• Not all games are about soley entertainment value
• Pre NM gear got you into NM in DD1, not face roll it. Since every map has individual scaling to it. Unlike NM3 PDT gear, which actually can help you face roll NM4.

There we go, clear, concise and straight to the point.

Moving on then.