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Black Mamba

[Dis~] How To Make TOL(& others) Great Again! (UPDATED for Halloween Spook 2)

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*sorry for the dank meme*
Anyways, old-timers, veterans or people who started new back when ToL was released will remember that apart from WW, Temple O' Love was THE GO TO PLACE for farming top-end smexy Accessories, Pets, and higher-end Reward Weps from older maps(Halloween, etc.)

However, all that was short-lived as Lab Assault practically crashed the entire Accessory, Armor and Pets market to the point that now you can get trans-level capping Sup armors for a mere 2b and high-end accessories for 150-250m from most shops(including mine), the effort of haggling and bargaining is just too much to put up with given how dead the market is.
So fast forward since then, now, this map/challenge is nothing more than a achievement hunt to unlock that trophy and the Tuxedo outfit.
Which is a real bummer becasue this was such a fun challenge to play!

There have been plenty of discussions on how to fix Lab, but the potential outrage for any sort of nerf would just be too much for CDT. Trendy should've fixed it, but didn't, so what can we do! And even now, most of these guys who have full ult+/++ sets are still benefiting from a broken challenge by running that map endlessly. I personally don't have anything against anyone, but the fact of the matter is Lab Assault rewards you way too much for ZERO effort and that is NOT HOW THIS GAME WORKS, or should work.

So in an attempt to make maps viable again I have a couple of suggestions. This thread will have all my suggestions regarding bringing certain other maps/challenges so that people find them more interesting than Lab and are probably given an incentive to farm something else than effing Lab Assault. So for this, I will be reserving couple of posts after the main post.
You are FREE TO CRITICIZE, OR IMPROVE UPON MY SUGGESTIONS, but just request you to be logical and reasonable with your criticisms, as criticizing just for the sake of disagreement doesn't help anyone and gets us nowhere.


Starting this main post with Temple O' Love:

  • Right then, ToL as you may or may not know is considered one of the hardest challenges(subjective), I do however find it easy once you get to know what you are supposed to be doing in the challenge.
  • Its not steamroll-able even at 5-6k stats, so having it improved a bit in terms of rewards WILL NOT BE GAME-BREAKING.
  • Even with the accessory buff introduced in v8.20, the point is -- Top Hats & Bows drop on Lab Assault. And therefore, there is no "exclusivity" in this map, since the pets that his map drops are also available elsewhere, so are the weapons and the main reward -- Accessories are already available on Lab Assault.

Therefore, the following would be my suggestion to make this map viable for farming Accessories of a given type:

  1. Add certain accessories(will mention below & pics in the next post) as a part of the "easter egg code" that is present on ToL, which rewards 1 more accessory for each character at the end of successful map completion.

  2. The base reward drop will always be either a Top Hat or a Bow, keeping in tradition of ToL. However upon code completion, the additional accessory reward will now be the new suggested accessory drop, with same stat range as Top Hats & Bows. Therefore upon successfully doing the code & beating ToL -- you now get a Head/Hat + Mask/Face accessory. Currently you get 2x Head/hat accessories, per character.

  3. Remove Top Hats & Bows(same with WW, GTH2, CD & Palantir accs) from Lab Assault accessory drop pool. If something is unique, it should stay unique to that map and that map only. However, the following suggested accessories can still drop on Lab, or not depending on consensus. I know this is a highly controversial suggestion as it affects people who farm lab for Armor and certain map specific accessories, however in the best interest of progression and other maps/challenge having a level playing field as Lab Assault -- it is only fair that Lab Assault stops dropping exclusive accessories. It can still drop the generic ones, just not the exclusive ones. That way if someone wants to farm for exclusive accessories, they have to actually PLAY THE GAME rather than reap benefits of a broken challenge.

  4. Accessories that should be included in ToL drop-pool, keeping in mind the theme of ToL:
    - Moustaches -- reason for this to be added: it fits the whole "Gentleman" theme along with the Top Hat for Male characters.
    - Ballroom Masks -- reason for this to be added: it fits the whole "Damsel" theme along with the Bow for Female characters.
    - Monocles -- reason for this to be added: it fits the whole "Gentleman" and "Damsel" theme for all characters.


Now, I'm open for suggestions/criticisms regarding accessory drops if you think these 3 are out of place. I've tried and tested a lot of accessory combinations, and quite literally nothing comes close to matching the ToL theme as these 3 do.

Reason I didn't not include bracer accessories, because those are way too generic to be included as a reward drop for ToL, and they are fine as they are right now on Lab Assault.

Also, as everyone can agree -- there are hardly any all female accessory sets/items that offer decent stats while looking good at the same time
I know quite a lot of friends and others in general who would love to get rid of their Santa Beards and Hats from their female characters but the significant compromise on stats is too much to do away with.
When accessories were introduced, they weren't meant to be a means of gaining more stats, but more about how "cool" and "unique" your characters look. I still believe that is how accessories should have been. But since everyone loves stats, I'll end my rant there.

Female characters need some more love accessory-wise, so the addition of a decent "mask accessory" is definitely needed. Right now, I've pretty much phased out all my fugly Santa Beards in favor of Pirate Eye Patches, but even those aren't ideal for females, but that's just me nitpicking! :P

Again -- You are FREE TO CRITICIZE, OR IMPROVE UPON MY SUGGESTIONS, but just request you to be logical and reasonable with your criticisms, as criticizing just for the sake of disagreement doesn't help anyone and gets us nowhere.

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UPDATE:

Okay guys, did some play-testing with Halloween Spook 2 at lower stats + lower DPS.
Roughly around 2k each. Was doing a duo run with with 2 DPS Monk -- no chickens, just a 15k Seahorse & Trans Fire Dragon.
It is still a hectic challenge as it was earlier, especially the last wave.
Not sure why I was under the impression that it was steamroll-able at low stats.

But anyways, while the weapons may not be top-end damage-wise, they still do tend to have decent stats for low-level players to serve as temporary equips until they can find better gear. Especially the Nosferatu, its still a great low-level monk weapon!
Although, the accessories are absolutely terrible stat-wise, comparable to Tavern Defense NMHC stat-range. So even for a 2k stat player they are worse than Lab Assault Hard/Insane HC accessories for the same map.

So, I'd suggest CDT to definitely to take a look at adding Halloween Spook 2 to the recent accessory buff map list in the next update.

Although I wouldn't suggest making Halloween Accessories as exclusive, becasue then that would leave Lab Assault accessory drop-pool completely dry. Plus this map is verrrrrrrrry old, so it doesn't make much sense for it to be made forced upon everyone to be farmed for Halloween Themed Accessories. But if someone wants to farm these then they shouldn't have to rely on Lab Assault RNG for them.

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Dont get me wrong i would love to see the accs be removed from lab as much as you would but there are to many people who would be against nerfing lab for it to ever happen. 

Sadly the natural progression with getting more content is that some of the old content will not be ran as much. It is kind of a shame for those newer players who decide to disregard these old maps because they are "not the best" but lucky there are still alot of maps that that can drop competitive end game loot still. 

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The outrage for "removing certain set of accessories" versus "removing/reducing total rewards & fixing EV's AI" will be significantly lower compared to the latter.

Some decision has to be made regarding Lab Assault, and yes I've maintained that its too late to totally nerf it, but having exclusive accessories removed isn't that much of a nerf TBH. Becasue quite frankly the other accessories drop already. And the most people farming Lab do it for Armor & Bracer Accessories, mainly Armor. Which this suggestion doesn't affect one bit.

Now as far as the point about progression is concerned, ToL is still one of the top-end challenges out there. It was released pretty late in the game's time-line. So it's not like it is outdated like certain other challenges such as -- Halloween Spook 1 and Assault Pack etc. On the contrary, it is just overshadowed by 1 single map that unfortunately drops an incredible amount of accessories, armor and pets for the effort required to beat it, i.e. breaking progression and making top-end challenges/map obsolete just like that.

So if anything, as you yourself agree -- it is only fair to have the exclusive accessories removed. Perhaps CDT can implement this in the beta and depending on the feedback received a final decision can be taken on whether or not it should be moved onto ranked or not. Without trying we can't really be sure if there will be real outrage or not.
And yes, this is kind of a "foot-in-mouth"moment for me as I've been saying that a Lab Assault nerf would create too much outrage, but that is in context to total rewards and/or ease of beating the challenge. But something like this(i.e. removing exclusive accessories from LA drop-pool) should really be tried in the beta before we can predict outrages, etc. If not, at least consider the other suggestion, I doubt anyone would be against having 2 or 3 more accessories in the drop pool of ToL.

However, I can understand being in the shoes of CDT it is still a tough thing to implement, i.e. any changes to lab Assault, given how much the community loves Lab Assault. But if that can't be done(which I still think should be given a try), at least the other maps which still are equally important progression-wise or in general need to be brought up to Lab levels of loot, at least in terms of quantity. Yes it's not the ideal fix, but for those of us who do not run Lab Assault, we won't be shafted and left high & dry. Yes, other maps drop competitive loot, but the effort and time required to get to that loot is no match compared to steamrolling your way through Lab Assault for 4 to 6 times that loot from some other challenges. The only thing that has somewhat stayed relevant since Lab Assault is the Reward Weapons market. But there is more to DD than just farming for weapons.

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To be perfectly honest, I'm totally fine with ToL remaining as an achievement hunt.  I absolutely despise that map.  I hate playing it, I don't enjoy it, and I wouldn't want to see it as something I had to play more than once.  I'm probably a super minority opinion on this one...but I just cannot stress how much I do not enjoy that map.

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You are just a minority then, probably. However, w.r.t. game-progression/balance, having a few extra accessories drop on ToL won't be forcing you to farm it, nor will it be breaking progression for someone who doesn't like playing this map.

Although if you don't like a certain map, then IMO you shouldn't care about the rewards from that map either. So you shouldn't have any issues with the rewards being exclusive to that map. Becasue hating a map, yet still wanting the rewards just doesn't make a whole lot of sense! And there are plenty of maps people hate playing, but are perfectly okay with a certain set of weps/pets/etc. being exclusive to that map. Therefore Lab Assault shouldn't be dropping map specific accessories, keeping in mind map specific exclusivity that is already there for most maps.

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Couple quick notes 

1. I am pretty sure that the majority of the player base has no clue how to beat and hates most end game challenges such as tol sn gth etc.. (skips rant that shouldnt go on forums....)

2. Correct me if i am wrong but i believe that annator accs are palanitr "exclusive". I would assume you would want these added to that list as well

3. I am all for having these removed atleast for a beta period to gather a majority feedback on the topic, but i can only imagine that the response will be rather negative from a decent majority. Hope im wrong but....

4. After the "exclusive" accs are removed all of the lab accs would be the total crap ones. You would no longer be able to rely on lab for any accs. Not a bad thing in my opinion but im sure there are others that would disagree. 

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Instead of buffing everything... why not just nerfing this single map which outclasses ALL other maps?


Note: Didn't had time to read everything and my reply would be also longer but I have to go off to work...

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9AB5C850A95EF071049AEDCF13B7E83D40BBFF21

I would have no issue making this a Temple o' Love (and perhaps Sky o' Love) exclusive. I would also have absolutely no issue advocating making many accessories map exclusive like they should have been from the start. That includes halloween masks on spooktacular maps, valentine accs on temple/sky, and annatar accs on palintir. 

I know it has been brought up internally on the CDT before, but ultimately decided against it in fear of touching literally anything about lab assault. If that's something you want to bring to the table again, we can potentially make it happen if the support in this thread fully backs it.

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@gigazelle quote:

9AB5C850A95EF071049AEDCF13B7E83D40BBFF21

I would have no issue making this a Temple o' Love (and perhaps Sky o' Love) exclusive. I would also have absolutely no issue advocating making many accessories map exclusive like they should have been from the start. That includes halloween masks on spooktacular maps, valentine accs on temple/sky, and annatar accs on palintir. 

I know it has been brought up internally on the CDT before, but ultimately decided against it in fear of touching literally anything about lab assault. If that's something you want to bring to the table again, we can potentially make it happen if the support in this thread fully backs it.

I would love this, most know me because I am / was a lab runner but I simply love this idea, pleassssssse implement it !!!

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@harry4550 quote:

Couple quick notes 

1. I am pretty sure that the majority of the player base has no clue how to beat and hates most end game challenges such as tol sn gth etc.. (skips rant that shouldnt go on forums....)

2. Correct me if i am wrong but i believe that annator accs are palanitr "exclusive". I would assume you would want these added to that list as well

3. I am all for having these removed atleast for a beta period to gather a majority feedback on the topic, but i can only imagine that the response will be rather negative from a decent majority. Hope im wrong but....

4. After the "exclusive" accs are removed all of the lab accs would be the total crap ones. You would no longer be able to rely on lab for any accs. Not a bad thing in my opinion but im sure there are others that would disagree. 

1. That is certainly true to an extent. Regardless of multiple guides and such people still struggle to beat some of the maps and I don't blame them, since most of the people have conditioned themselves to just head off to Lab and get gear, rather than doing some NMHC MM survivals, which before Lab Assault was THE PLACE for gear. Either way, not the proper thread for this! :D

2. Palantir accessories sadly aren't exclusive, they drop on Lab assault as well, all 4 of them. In fact, any accessory which is pre-CDT isn't exclusive to that map, or rather I should put it this way -- any accessory that was available/released BEFORE Lab Assault was released -- drops on Lab Assault. This includes the previously exclusive ones from Halloween Spooky 2, Palantir, CD, GTH2, WW and ToL. So right now there are only 4 total exclusive ones, i.e. Pirate Eye Patches from Pirate Invasion and 3 Embermount accessories.

3. We should give it a try and see what the response is. If it is more than 55-45% in favor of removal i.e. making accessories as map exclusive like they were pre-Lab Assault, well then at least a few can be removed, if not all.

4. Well to be fair there aren't many maps that drop Bracer and Shield Accessories that much, so I wouldn't say Lab assault will be totally crap in terms of accessories. Granted you can find bracers in Palantir and Shields in GTH2, but really -- due to Lab Assault -- how many people even play those maps? There was a slight spike in people playing Palantir right after the 8.2 update, becasue of the new cosmetic effects but that has now faded off as well becasue you can get those same accessories while playing Lab, and much more. So there is no incentive to play these maps when you can already find accessories that are exclusive to these maps on lab Assault.

Funny thing is even after the accessory buff of those maps, there are hardly as many people playing them. Therefore the only way i think to make those maps viable is by simply removing map exclusive accessories from the Lab Assault drop pool. At least the higher end maps such as WW, ToL, GTH2, Palantir and CD. About Halloween Spook 2 -- please read below(in my response to [[31834,users]]).


@EagleOne quote:

Instead of buffing everything... why not just nerfing this single map which outclasses ALL other maps?
Note: Didn't had time to read everything and my reply would be also longer but I have to go off to work...

When you have the time read all, you will get the answer! :D Short version -- right now Lab Assault nerf is too much of a controversial topic. And many are against nerfing Lab Assault completely. The buffing I was talking about is simply in terms of 1 or 2 more reward drops in certain maps, not stats-wise buff, that is not needed. Having 1 or 2 more accessory rewards doesn't affect game progression even 1 bit.



@gigazelle quote:

I would have no issue making this a Temple o' Love (and perhaps Sky o' Love) exclusive. I would also have absolutely no issue advocating making many accessories map exclusive like they should have been from the start. That includes halloween masks on spooktacular maps, valentine accs on temple/sky, and annatar accs on palintir. 

I know it has been brought up internally on the CDT before, but ultimately decided against it in fear of touching literally anything about lab assault. If that's something you want to bring to the table again, we can potentially make it happen if the support in this thread fully backs it.

That one is a nice face accessory for female characters, I totally dig that one! Now, its not a 1:1 copy of the current Ballroom Mask, but it does fit into the ToL/SoL theme more than the current Ballroom Masks. That one absolutely must be a exclusive to ToL (and/or SoL).


About Halloween Spooky 2 -- this was supposed to be the MAP#2 I referred in the 2nd reserved post, but since it is already brought up, might as well chip-in my views about it a bit.

  • That map is fairly old and not that hard to beat, its a fun challenge though! You can steamroll through it at 1.5-2k stats. And the current accessory drops on that map are pretty low stat-wise.
  • So IMO Halloween specific accs should be allowed to drop on Lab Assault, becasue removing even Halloween accessories would leave hardly a few accessories left in the Lab drop pool.
  • While I was planning to make a suggestion about having Halloween Spook 2 accessories with their current stat-range moved to Halloween Spook 1, and then have Halloween Spook 2 drop the accessories as per the Lab Assault stat-range level, but I still haven't fully thought about this. 
  • Also that map is a fairly low level challenge, especially HS1. It can be done with just squire towers at 500-600 stats. So I dunno if it will be a good idea to have 40-50+ stat accs drop on it.
  • For 3-4k stat people that is pretty low, but we are talking about people in godly and low-end myth gear getting access to 50+ stat Myth to Sup accs. But like I said I still haven't fully thought about it, I'll have to do some testing/playing with low levels to see how that works out if the current HS2 accs are shifted to HS1.


Ideally only generic accs should drop in Lab Assault, but I can totally feel the outrage if literally all map specific accs are removed from Lab Assault. So one option is to have a strawpoll run for a couple of weeks and the top 3 or 4 most voted maps(and their specific accessories) can be removed from the Lab Assault drop pool.

Having said that, I do strongly suggest we have at least WW, ToL, GTH2 and Palantir accessories removed from Lab Assault drop pool in the next beta, and depending on the feedback it can be finalized or scrapped.

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As someone who spent a decent amount of time on lab it's hard to voice my opinion on a topic like this because there's people that will respond in one of two ways:

If I disagree with the nerf I will be told that the only reason I don't want it nerfed is because I don't want my sacred ground to be touched.

If I agree with the nerf I will be told that I'm only ok with it now because I've gotten what I need and am now just trying to make it harder for others.


I think both aren't very good arguments. So now that that's hopefully prevented from happening; 

I fully support removing exclusive accessories from lab and/or adding new ones to other maps.

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One of the things I like about DD2 is the concept of having to farm certain maps for certain things. I.e. Exclusives. it does broaden the number of 'relevant' maps.

I am therefore mildly positive on the proposal of removing certain accessories from lab and returning them to specific maps but only if this is where they originated from and not retrospectively.

However, if you are asking the community to vote on it I think they should understand the consequences. By this I mean they should understand the stat range of the accessories that are moving or remaining.

@Black Mamba quote:


2. Palantir accessories sadly aren't exclusive, they drop on Lab assault as well, all 4 of them.

I think Harry meant that these accessories would be treated the same way as the ToL ones in your proposal. i.e. removed from lab and available only on Palantir.


I would say that fretting about progression (in relation to relatively minor stat ranges on accessories) when Insane lab assault has an Ult++ armor drop chance and can be completed in 2 minutes or so with no gear (literally no armor or accs) other than a weapon feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. This is not meant to be critical of efforts to consider progress, this is applauded, rather that it ignores the elephant in the room as [[42201,users]] suggested.

That said, Lab has felt armor stealth nerfed to me for a while so with this proposed change (if I understand it correctly) we are part way to solving the problem anyway.

TL:DR

Exclusives are good. I like the idea

Anyone voting should be informed as to the consequences on the change on the stats on the drops they will get post change

Lab still breaks progression


Alternative for those that like the look of these accessories and do not want to run the harder maps.

Boost the stat range multipliers on the original maps so they may drop truly Ult quality (i.e the chance of reaching well above 500) accs on NMHC.

This takes nothing away from those that will have a fit if Lab is touched but encourages playing the other maps


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mkjo -- Well apart from GTH2, WW and ToL, the stat ranges on other accessories is more or less the same, in either their maps, or in Lab.
If anything, HS2 and Tavern Defense accessories are crazy low stats compared to their Lab Assault counterparts, even if you play lab Assault on INHC you get way better accs than those on HS2 and TD. BUT keeping in mind that these maps are fairly old and don't require a whole lot of effort to beat, any kind of buff stat-wise for these maps is not justified. I might have to test out HS2 with less than 1k stats to see how easily it is beatable before suggesting a buff for its acessories. TD, already gives tons of XP and just drops 1 accessory. I don't see any point in buffing that.

Hmm, I think harry4550 meant that Palantir ones are exclusive, as in exclusive to that map and don't drop anywhere else. Might be wrong, but let's wait for him to clarify! :D Although, as part of my original suggestion, Palantir accessories should most certainly be removed from Lab Drop pool. And we already have couple of guys that run a lot of Lab Assault already voicing positively for certain set of accessory removals from Lab Assault.

In the hindsight, I think the voting might probably be a bad idea becasue a lot of people do not or may not know the significance or impact of fixing/nerfing Lab Assault and might not just vote at all. However, those of us on the forums can help clear out how Lab Assault has made other maps and survivals obsolete, maybe people can reason with it.

I'll have to disagree with your last point when you mention stat-range for accessories on other maps should be buffed. If a map is hard and drops rewards worthy of its difficulty then there is no real point in making it easier to get the said rewards. (Sorry bu thtta point of yours didn't make much sense to me! xD )
The only other maps(implied that we are talking about campaign/challenge) that drop a guaranteed accessory as a reward are -- HS2, Tavern Defense, Akatiti, Palantir, WW, GTH2, ToL and CD, other than the new CDT maps. And of these, Palantir, WW, GTH2, ToL and CD all have received a buff. So there is no real point in having more stats. About HS2 & TD, I've already clarified above. All that remains is Akatiti, which to be honest -- is just fine, the accessory rewards on that map are around Lab Insane level stat-wise, besides its actual reward weapons are pretty top-end already, therefore no point in buffing that.

More stats isn't and can't ever be the solution to bring people to play maps other than Lab Assault. Whenever I mention buffs, I always mean in terms of "quantity" or number of total rewards etc. Because the sole reason Lab Assault is so famous is due to the sheer amount of rewards it drops. Had Lab Assault dropped maybe 3 rewards of which 1 was a guaranteed accessory drop and the remaining 2 were totally random, it wouldn't have been as bothersome as it is now. But with the current 9 reward drops and the extremely high chances of guaranteed accessories and armors, it is an obvious problem.

Buffing stat ranges on older maps, even on NMHC will break progression because then we are awarding people equipping low-end myth gear with end-game accessories, given how easy it is to beat most maps at 1-2k stats. Which is why I mention -- more stats isn't and can't ever be the solution to anything. If, as an alternative to not touching Lab Assault we are buffing the stat-ranges of other maps, we are basically ignoring the core problem and being blind to it, and at the same time potentially creating a newer one. Besides we are already on a stat ceiling as far as gear is concerned, and beyond 3k stats don't even matter.

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[[51772,users]]

Ah, your posts make more sense now that you have explained that by buff you mean quantity.

I cannot see my original post as it is on the previous page but I do not think I said they should be buffed (stats) but that that might be an alternative if people raged about losing them from Lab. I could be wrong and had a senior moment of course.

To be honest lab has so completely broken progression I approach game changes more with a view to encouraging more diverse playing of maps and sorry but I do not accept another 100 points on an Ult accessory is game changing or progression changing when we are talking about end game maps such as ToL, WW and, to add it in the mix Embermount.


I am not playing so much any more but from memory the top accs from Lab are the Santa Beard and Santa Hat, then the bows (and the GTH2 shield). If players are being asked to vote on removing them I only suggest that they are made aware that doing so takes the accs stat range on drops in lab from, say, capping Supreme to the 420-460 range (an estimate it could be higher or lower).


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@Black Mamba quote:


@EagleOne quote:

Instead of buffing everything... why not just nerfing this single map which outclasses ALL other maps?
Note: Didn't had time to read everything and my reply would be also longer but I have to go off to work...

When you have the time read all, you will get the answer! :D Short version -- right now Lab Assault nerf is too much of a controversial topic. And many are against nerfing Lab Assault completely. The buffing I was talking about is simply in terms of 1 or 2 more reward drops in certain maps, not stats-wise buff, that is not needed. Having 1 or 2 more accessory rewards doesn't affect game progression even 1 bit.


Well yes, that seems better as long as stats are not affected... anyways a nerf of Lab Assault is more than required to stop all the topics about better rewards on campaign and drops on survivals. Lab Assault is doing more harm than anything else... :)

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[[49571,users]], there have been recent buffs to other maps to being their accessories to the Lab stat-range. So now Palantir drops about as good accessories as Lab Assault, previously this wasn't the case. Same with GTH2, HS2, CD and TD accessories. Now there is enough reason to farm these maps for specific accessories, but then again we come back to the same question -- if Lab Assault already drops them at the same stat-range, why should anyone farm these maps when it takes maybe 3 mins to get 36 items (+18 more if you bring in 2 alt accounts) from Lab Assault versus playing these maps for whatever 15-20mins and getting significantly less rewards?
Therefore, whichever way we look at it, one of the fixes to Lab Assault should be removing the accessories from other maps and making them exclusive again.


[[42201,users]], That is true, but like I've maintained before -- completely nerfing Lab won't be taken well by most of the people. That time to completely fix it has very and truly passed. The damage more than done, and a surgery is now not an option. All we can do is make some bandage fixes and hope for the best.
Adding(actually replacing) 1 extra reward from ToL is not going to make a significant impact on anything. And having Lab NOT DROP exclusive accessories anymore will give people an incentive to run something else other than Lab Assault. Its a win-win, IMO. And the reality is you can't always please everyone. Becasue right away in this thread itself someone suggested not making changes to ToL becasue they don't like the map, but have no issue with Lab Assault being the way it is right now.
But if there are enough people from both side that agree to making certain accessories exclusive, then it is definitely a good(although partial) fix to the larger problem of Lab Assault. At least that way we make some progress. Just washing down suggestions regarding improving other maps won't be fixing anything. Need to think out of the box.

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I have played Dungeon Defenders since the release. One thing I have noticed with all the updates and the changes, it felt like Trendy was trying to please everyone, and with that the game became broken, one could say chaotic. We moved away from a challenging, fun, need to play multiple maps in the hopes(dreams) of getting that one reward to show off to your friends, kind of grind, to a boring, pay someone some coal to fill your item box with lab run goodies. 


Dungeon Defenders was pulled away from its original play style, where there were map specific rewards. I can tell you I have had much personal enjoyment of simply having multiple maps to play to get the chance at something spectacular.


I know Lab Assault is kind of made to feel as a big "copy" factory, but who says "copies" need to be as good as the originals? Who says it has to have most all of the games rewards? Exclusive, difficult to get rewards? Most of the fun is playing different, difficult maps for that precious reward and of course playing with friends.


I love this idea!!


And Gigazelle, I love that mask!! (♥♥,)  and I'm kinda partial to mustaches, got anything up your sleeve?


Kindly,

Jemma

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I like and support the idea! Also just for the record i am for a fix of the EV-AI. It would make the Lab Assault a fun challenge where you need an organized team.

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"exclusive" = map/challenge specific + lab

Lab trash accs get up to like 330ish max stats halloween max stats go to like 360ish

current maps/challenges that give high end accs are Pal, WW, SN, ToL, GTH, Ember

may need to add in some new shield accs but given that the last event gave a stupid op one i feel like this will be overlooked a bit

these forums are ***


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@jemmajule quote:

And Gigazelle, I love that mask!! (♥♥,)  and I'm kinda partial to mustaches, got anything up your sleeve?

We already have a mustache in game! I'm actually hoping to move away from mustaches and beards because I know a lot of people don't like having so masculine-looking female characters.

Have no fear though, because the mask accs I have in store are much better :)

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[[31834,users]]:

We already have a mustache in game! I'm actually hoping to move away from mustaches and beards because I know a lot of people don't like having so masculine-looking female characters.
Have no fear though, because the mask accs I have in store are much better :)

Good to hear about (even more)new accessories on the way(possibly?). And yes, the existing Moustache is what I was referring to -- to be included in the ToL drop pool alongside the existing Ballroom Mask(or the new one you posted that looks even better) and the Monocle; once you complete the ToL code, with a similar stat-range as Top Hats & Bows.

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[[55236,users]] -- Ahh ok, thanks for clarifying. I was under the impression that by exclusive you meant to that map only and not Lab, because logically then it is not exclusive if it drops elsewhere. But yea, as part of my original suggestion -- map specific accs need to be removed from Lab Assault. This includes -- Palantir, WW, ToL, GTH2 and CD(yes even CD!).

Hmm, I mean 330 - 360 stats still ins't bad for like 98-99% of the people. The problem isn't with low stats completely. I've had people buy-out most of my accessories from shop with sightly lower stats and the ones reaching upto 400 or higher, mainly Santa Accs and anything that didn't look "good" were left as it is. Sure, the data of sold accessories from my shop alone isn't enough to suggest that people don't like stats, but the trend is there. And quite a few people I know have started moving away from Santa Accs to ones that look good, despite them having low stats.

I dunno how I feel about buffing other (generic)Shield Accs, because I don't use Squire Towers all that much. But apart from 2 shields(Annatar & Gobbler), the rest are pretty crap stat-wise. It is surely something that can be looked at since there are a plethora of Shields in the game, some that look absolute top notch(I love this one) and maybe a voting can be done based on appearances as to which 3-4 shields can be buffed. But either way, I'm neutral on this.

As far as these forums being crap, I agree -- maybe chip-in or take a look at some of the suggestions here -- https://dungeondefenders.com/1/topic/139385/?scrollTo=1242033&page=1#1242033

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[[29181,users]] -- Thanks Jemma for those words <3 !!!

Sums up my thought about Lab Assault as well, it is indeed a shame to see such a diverse game with a multitude of maps and unique challenges being abandoned by the player base in favor of something that is obviously broken and shouldn't exist. Let's hope at least a part of the problem can be fixed by having map specific accessories removed from Lab Assault drop pool.

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Yeah ToL can go f**k itself. I know of like 3 people who actually like to run the map and I consider 2 of them to be nutcases. (Not in a bad way of course)

It is not fun to run, it is stressful since a single pair forming ends the map, the boss fight sucks and forces a one dimensional fight strategy, not to mention reliance on phys walls to make it.

I don't really care about what happens to it but for the love of god don't make it a map you have to farm for something.

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