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It's been a bit messy, may I humbly suggest a clean-up rather than more content?


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Weekly doesn't work, Daily doesn't work, orbs don't work, frostbite towers don't work - all for the x/y/zth time.

Communications are haphazard - Loot 2.0 is in for a bunch of heroes, nope just a book, nope not the book, sorry.

Legendary loot gets moved, may be reverted, nope stays, move clarified, still questionable dropping and long odds.


Just quick examples with the last few patches.. kudos for all the new things, new heroes, new maps, and we have new / more strategic play coming etc etc - but too many basic operations and mechanics seem off-kilter.  Some regular expectations end up in surprise like costume costs more when has alterations - but now plain jane costumes with no alterations are 1200 gems and no 'just costume' sale this Tuesday?  New heroes drop overpowered (noted in Test too) with the nerf bat swinging hard right after, often knocking out some of the fun or what made them special, referring to recent Lavamancer threads around the Maw and Gunwitch mobility slowdown.  Original 4 supposedly got some love but the Monk still lags behind everyone (lightning auras and AA) and can't be reliably propped up by Frostbite towers.  Pets are still in a very funny spot with most of us wishing for some path to Dracolich (broken - sure to be fixed once everyone has a path to catch up...), Narwhale and others - still most not useful outside stats, making one of the original freebie pet gifts for early types having no stats a particularly epic fail.  Some of these may even be next now, but are very old issues.


But even before these things, I come back to my own topic.. a DD2 deep breath to lock down orbs and passives and routes to medals (since that is the key currency for anything important now) and build basics / basic builder (and dps hero) viability etc etc.  Don't get me wrong, variety is cool, new maps are cool, new heroes are cool, I/we eat it up.  I'm a big fan from DD1 (who happily skipped that interim product) and DD2 is something cool.  But I know for myself and I'm hearing / feeling it from many others we just need that core engine to get some love too, nail some stuff down and keep to it.  There are quality of life items (and quite a list now too per thread) that would go a long way, I know for myself if I could even just sort across bags for text it'd be a huge win, focus on passives and 'defense power' upgrades for example.


Some things honestly I think you had more right early but I know marketers and $ change things - the temporary bag and ability for you to make all your bags look like one was great!  No offense to 'old man flasher' in town but just getting involved AFTER your own bags have overflowed or if something falls of the world isn't nearly as cool, and your fans who play multiple builds were gonna buy those bags anyway, especially as heroes/build variety continue to grow.  I feel that was a departure to the wrong.  But you've generally done a lot right, I'm still here and writing too long a post lol.


tl;dr tighten in down rather than continuing to expand / redo IMO, there are too many things that continue to break too easily too often and the latest hero or map or change-up or costume may make a blip but won't help cement your core


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No honestly i think its absolut good that they push for the major changes now. The game is finaly moving even if i am raging quit hard about these bugs too, but that is the right direction they are going. Better now, fixing stuff later when the whole is in.

But still... they need a QA tho xD, gobu. Nothing against the QA if there is any at all but get a QA really :d. I mean if there is one then you only hear of it in mythes and old tales, even older then the Old one and Ancient Ruin maps. Maybe skelletons are sitting in their room by now, iamisom should check on them if there is still someone alive.


 Emoji_Kobalt.pngEmoji_Huntress.pngEmoji_Goblin.png Goblins are happy though we love eating bugs, but the player inside is crying.


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I getcha and appreciate a different opinion and I certainly enjoy the new stuff too.

I just feel the track record is there now - I've felt it ever since the alleged push to Beta (you don't see that anywhere anymore do you? that one destroyed passives across existing equipment it wasn't supposed too) - too many things reoccurring too often eg simple changes always breaking orbs, dailies, weeklies, frosties??  Lock it down man!

The idea we're headed into a rather serious strategic revamp (+ new hero) scares me a bit...!

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@CKaz quote:

... too many things reoccurring too often eg simple changes always breaking orbs, dailies, weeklies, frosties?? 

...

This is a trade, you can kinda say curse. There are these developers who fix stuff and then there are these who are leaving bugs in till later to fix them then. You can kinda put all developers into these 2 categorys.

If you fix bugs fast you actually take more time up, but for these who speed up for content it happens to occure like you say. Re-occurring bugs are a trait you get when you rush, you find it in tons of games that old bugs always appear again and again because they don't get cleanly fixed, just hushed you could say or even stayed in. This leads to that some bugs getting really deep into the code and are hard to either track down the source or the reason how they work.

That's when it gets interesting for anyone who actually loves to search for bugs / abuses / or code which is not intentional. Code has a chaos variable because of this and the bugs evolve! They start to feel alive and influence the game. Some more some less but they are an own unknown world which neither players nor devs know about. It's as if they are aliens or if you strand on an unknown island.

In one game a simple bug, an graphical copy of an hero on an outer mine (in a city builder game), was created randomly. It could be cleared if someone just attacked it with an hero without much army. It had no influence at all and was ignored. This bug evolved into that it actually turned into a true second hero so if someone attacked he lost stuff, but you didn't. That's where the first complains came in about it (i was called a hacker because some belived that hacked them and killed their units without losing lol, but it was still random i could do nothing against it). Then the bug evolved further and it got really complicated. You could actually trigger it! But the devs still couldn't figure out why it was happened so it dragged on. THEN they made some changed towards how defending a town worked and the bug intigrated this into his code you could say and evolved to super sayja 3 or maybe 4. You could trigger it, you also could now send invisible armys out with it to attack other players, you could now instant attack with it also, so enemys had no chance to react and you could instantly recall them from anywhere to your castle, and place duplicates anywhere on the map and benefit from it. That's when everything was going for broke for a week XD. And that was a pay to win game where you could heal your units for real money, i didn't pay in any pay to win, just saying it was an very serious issue all of the sudden because of this, because players literally were losing money. Well the game survived the whole bug phase of push and rush but it was tough.

On the other hand alot of games never survive this strategy of publishing. I had seen quit alot where the game just shut down because they couldn't handle the issues anymore and the bugs had broken the game so bad that it was bejoind repair. This is not possible? Ha, it is! But this is more prone to small companys then teams with more manpower. Trendy should get through it though, they have definitiv more manpower, just saying it can get really bad. Some of these games even needed to refund all the money to their customer because of this.

Bugs are interesting, but you need a cage around them and prepare them as a meal or else they will infest everything, thats how i see it. Gobu. 


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I'd be fine to slow down the content stream a bit if we can avoid things like what happened to Lavamancer as well as other things mentioned.

It was genuinely aggravating watching his dps kit get demolished that quickly, and even though some things definitely needed a nerf, it felt like more than needed. Had he come out with more polish and some of those bugs weren't in to begin with, I wouldn't have been annoyed. 


Gunwitch costume felt rushed out the door. Red/Black reskin of one set of accessories with no noticably unique animations for three times the cost other costumes like it run.

I will admit I'm a lot more hesitant to get excited for stuff now until I see what happens in the weeks following its launch.

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Noob question what you mean by orbs? Nothing comes to mind when I think orbs in this game some reason.

Also it is odd that many things become bugged every patch, guess programing is really hard or messy in this game I not sure. But it seems no matter how much they patch stuff up more stuff becomes broken, so maybe they should just release a bunch of new content and then fix it all at once? 

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Orbs as in Spheres.


And yeah, the way code interacts with different parts can cause really weird and unpredictable results sometimes. I'm no programming god, but I did attempt to major in it in college for a bit. I remember those nights where I'd be working on a project, and be 80% through it and everything was working just fine, then I would do that last part and then NOTHING worked. I'd have to go through every line lf code to find my mistake, and it was usually not in a place I could have guessed easily.


Throwing more on the pile and fixing everything at once may or may not work, but I'd suspect the more code added would make fixing bugs more difficult.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

Also it is odd that many things become bugged every patch, guess programing is really hard or messy in this game I not sure. But it seems no matter how much they patch stuff up more stuff becomes broken, so maybe they should just release a bunch of new content and then fix it all at once? 

It is indeed mindless, like vagnar said, i also did partially study programming, and because i do QA for some years i can tell you, even the smallest change can have devasting effects if not tested! That's a reason why i always smile abit when i read "this is a small change, just change this and do that" for when player want some ui changes and stuff to happen. Yeah it is a small change, but it can cause tons of issues and problems and needed to be tested alot too. It's no easy work for even small changes to get into a game bug free the more code is in.

Thats the reason why some ignore bugs and only fix or mash up a half fix for critical issues or really small changes and do it all in one batch at the end. This still can take month though =) to get everything cleaned then.

Sadly i don't have the link to a nice example of how it works kinda for how minor stuff gets in for a company (not 1 man stuff). Had an list of someone from i belive ubisoft on an example of implementing a door into the game, and he listed up "all" the steps (persons) which had an influence and saying and doing in it, which was literally the whole staff. Like what does the door look like? How will the player interact with it? How we make the player interact with it? How will it be graphical represented? What influence has the door on monetization? The size of the door? Testing the door? What is the sound the door make? Does the door make a sound? How will it be ported and work on different systems? Has the door other functions? And then like 20 more answers to questions for other parts of the company. Even a button can be quit interesting you see.

And then such changes can influences already exisiting bugs or generate some. Lets say you do an UI change and push it out without much testing. "just a small" graphical change right? Not even worth mention in the patch notes. Now there is a bug which suddenly lets your game crash or all graphics are displaced or some are or glitches happen on random part of the game because maybe the new button might be a tiny bit bigger and is now overlaying other stuff which might cause other issues (like clicking through the black on the inventory here which leads some player to sell accidently gear). Bugs like these doesn't need to be for all players, maybe just for a few one with certain resolutions or settings (windowed or not). Then it gets even harder to figure out what happens and what breaks the game, because for the majority it is working so it might not be bugged :D. And the player having the bug might not actually know the reason why the game does crash (if its not like through a click on it). Well thats another story tho...

But what i want to say is, new untested or light tested code, may the change be as small as it is, may still cause AAA tier issues and that might actually all caused by an old bug which is still in and just checks the required space for a button and this is the actuall cause of all these strange behaviours =). No issue at all before until it came in.

Same can be said with fixes, if an issue is fixed with just an mashup to make the current broken system "work" the whole cause of a bug is not fixed at all. Like if there is a bug which turns your tower damage to 1 from 6 and you can't figure it out and "fix" it by just increasing the 1 to 6 the tower does still 6 damage and it is repaired. But the Bug is still in the system. THIS IS BTW ABSOLUT SLOPPY PROGRAMMING and it sadly happens for an "temp" fix. Now this bug may still cause other issues and stuff and eventually might turn really nasty.



For trendy you can say  on their bugfix list you can roughly estimate that 20% of these fixes are not fixed. This is not guesswork of me it is just some observation and retesting when i see the bugfix list =). My guess for this is, they "fix" stuff but they don't hard retest if the issue is truly fixed. This is my pure guess because i don't know how trendy works, but that is what it looks like at last. So the fix may have fixed an issue maybe, but maybe not. Welcome re-appearing issues =).

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It's also virtually impossible for a small team to test everything in the modern scope of games. They can run it through programs, spend days and nights doing everything they can, but something will always pop up when it's released to general playerbase. Then they fix that, but in doing so something new pops up, etc etc.


Old school games are riddled with bugs too, but we prefer to sugar coat those as "features" and "exploits" 

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@dreamanime quote:Had an list of someone from i belive ubisoft

Those guys made me quit Assasins Creed Unity faster then they were able to patch out stuff. I was just happy to get Far Cry 4 for free, lol.

The first day the game was perfectly fine for me, small glitches but nothing I wasn't able to handle. After their "bugfixes" I lost 30 FPS, wasn't able to play the game at high definitions any more and my frames dropped down to like 4 FPS when enterning huge groups of people in Paris. Ubisoft is in many ways a company with a lot of communication problems, no wonder they have trouble to get stuff done in time.

I'm waiting for DD2 to finish at some point. I don't care about what the game runs like because that's something the developers have to think about. I can give feedback but that's it. I know the basics of programming and can imagine what it's like to have a programm with a few thousand lines of code. If you guys ever have to work with someone in IT on one programm, run away. Especially if you won't see each other each day to ask stuff. Modern scripts are not difficult and every algorythm is done somewhere, basic rule, never invent something new if you can copy it. The amount of code is the task. You write down stuff in classes and then use them whenever needed. But sometimes they do not work in certain situations and cause bugs. You either change the class or add stuff, most of the time creating a new class is the solution.

So it could be that the dmg calculation on enemies is the same for goblins and ogres but witherbeasts have their own because the code from the other two used for the witherbeast causes bugs.

The end of the story is, the code gets bigger and bigger, could cause more trouble and needs more special treatment every time. Just imagine a huge spiderweb. If the bug flys into it, only a small area is affected but the whole web is shaking.

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@Mybrainisanut quote:


@dreamanime quote:Had an list of someone from i belive ubisoft

Those guys made me quit Assasins Creed Unity faster then they were able to patch out stuff. I was just happy to get Far Cry 4 for free, lol.

The first day the game was perfectly fine for me, small glitches but nothing I wasn't able to handle. After their "bugfixes" I lost 30 FPS, wasn't able to play the game at high definitions any more and my frames dropped down to like 4 FPS when enterning huge groups of people in Paris. Ubisoft is in many ways a company with a lot of communication problems, no wonder they have trouble to get stuff done in time.

...

Ha not talking about the quallity of Ubisoft XD, i had my fair share of experience with them too. They definitiv have issues, shutting down games and all. They kinda lack a drive is what it feels for me.

Just said their name in hope someone had the nice list, it was a really good one, might need to dig the chat on work hard for it though to find the link again.

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Bethesda is easily the best example of a company that's clearly competent and make very sophisticated games, bug the sheer  amount of bugs, and new bugs every patch is just crazy. It's genuinely tough, so I try to empathize on that side. Deliberate design decisions can definitely bring out the worst in me sometimes though. >.>


Give me Narwhagon and rebuff Lavamancer DPS already! (/'.')/

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As said at least once before in this topic, I think it is the best that they focus on spicing things up with new stuff and then rebalancing the whole core instead of balance / add / balance / add eternal cycle that would take forever and lose even more players in the process.

Developers are aware of the current problems in the game (at least the biggest), they just want to do things right because they feel they have done mistakes in the past and want to take the time to properly assess the situation and find the appropriate solution. I really prefer that approach instead of having quickfix constantly and eternal rework on the same heroes over and over. I stopped playing the game a year ago or so because I was disappointed at how few new content we had, I really prefer the current setup than the one we had before.

Let's see how the campaign update goes on first, I think it will be a good way to see the differences in the approach overall. (or even Tuesday's update for the matter)

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^ actually my point was more the core code / engine bugs then 'rebalance core', however I do feel for Zimmerman and those who still try.. Monk was my happy main (and thus avatar) long ago.. Mage continues to lose his (arguably one/most important) role.. thankfully Huntress is back on the map with her PDTs if too strongly.. but I digress.

New stuff is great but if stuff like orbs/spheres and core META (eg frozen towers helping the Mage and Monk) and medal gathering routes and 'hunt the loot' keep moving/breaking/re-breaking, tough to easily embrace the new.  My main point was take a breathier to really fix some of these occurrences because the quick-fixing clearly hasn't been working...

I am glad there is at least a resurgence in biting back at the meddling medal bugs!

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You also have to keep in mind that all the devs are not working on everything, I mean they have X persons working on the bugs, X working on the new content etc. You can't ask an artist to work on debugging the frost tower for instance so sometimes when the priority is shift it doesn't necessarily means that the debugging and rebalancing is not being taken care of at all anymore. And I really think that the balancing has to be done "once and for all" (in the idea, because we all know that no balance is ever perfect in a game let's be honest) when there is enough content rather than doing it now and stay with that lack of content that many players is criticizing right now.

As of now new players are really not welcomed in the game which is a terrible thing, and "old" players are getting bored because of the lack of content. They try to work on both sides of the coin at once with a slightly bigger focus on the new players because they have been really left out. I would like to show the game to my partner but I know he would be so lost in the current state of the game that he would dislike it only because of that, despite the fact it doesn't impact my direct game experience it has to be the main priority to avoid that the game becoms a sinking ship with an awfully low player base.

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