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CDT Update 3 - Golden Enemies

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While there have been several who have mentioned they enjoyed the new gold enemy buff there have definitely been some that dont.  It has made wyverns in particular difficult for some long trusted builds to deal with.  Since it has caused a lot of builds from many players to get rekt, we have been working to see if this can be reverted in a possible hotfix build along with another fix.  While that is being worked on though, we would like to continue the discussion on how we may want to properly implement this Gold Enemy buff.


Previously the buff was around 5x which appears to be a bit much, at least for the gold wyverns.  There was some discussion here about different possibilities.  There were ideas of just lowering the buff or even changing mechanics of the wyvern to attack the player or defenses when golden instead of going straight to the crystal.  So we would like to get a general consensus on the best way to go about it.  


I will try to add some numbers for a buffed wyvern below once I collect them but wanted to get the conversation started on what should be done while we await a possible hotfix and Update 3 Beta.


Happy Defending!!

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well i have one thing to say golden enimes are too OP

and i changed some of my build cuz some of them were hitting the crystal so yeah :P

at least Nerf it alittle bit not much maybe make it 3x or 2x instead of 5x will be better :D

i don't want to talk much about it just giving you what i think - and thanks to the CDT for all the hard work <3

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Quick overview...


Golden wyvern are a major issue for mixmode and certain campaign builds, hence the suggestion to change their target priority once golden. On the other hand what about maps like Greater Turkey Hunt, Rumble in the Jungle / Djinn War where you basically don't build much defenses but running around the map?


So a mix of lowering health/strength while changing wyvern target priority seems to suit certain maps more than others...

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I like how golden enemies are now. Please don't change them back, or nerf them. So some of the high end players' lazy builds don't work anymore? Boohoo. Get better stats, or even better, smarter builds. This should not be an argument against golden enemies. I don't think making maps harder is a bad thing. Need 4k now to complete akatiti on NM? Just play other maps until you get better, or do it on insane while you can't.

Having said that, I'm not clear on how the new gold enemies affect players with stats around 1-2k. Only if it really breaks the game for those players I am for some alternative scaling.

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@ThePoet424 quote:

I like how golden enemies are now. Please don't change them back, or nerf them. So some of the high end players' lazy builds don't work anymore? Boohoo. Get better stats, or even better, smarter builds. This should not be an argument against golden enemies. I don't think making maps harder is a bad thing. Need 4k now to complete akatiti on NM? Just play other maps until you get better, or do it on insane while you can't.

Having said that, I'm not clear on how the new gold enemies affect players with stats around 1-2k. Only if it really breaks the game for those players I am for some alternative scaling.

well how about all those builds in the people guides 2k builds or lower all the new players that visit those will build a build that does not work anymore = all the guides of low stats have been destroyed  


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@kg4q quote:


@ThePoet424 quote:

I like how golden enemies are now. Please don't change them back, or nerf them. So some of the high end players' lazy builds don't work anymore? Boohoo. Get better stats, or even better, smarter builds. This should not be an argument against golden enemies. I don't think making maps harder is a bad thing. Need 4k now to complete akatiti on NM? Just play other maps until you get better, or do it on insane while you can't.

Having said that, I'm not clear on how the new gold enemies affect players with stats around 1-2k. Only if it really breaks the game for those players I am for some alternative scaling.

well how about all those builds in the people guides 2k builds or lower all the new players that visit those will build a build that does not work anymore = all the guides of low stats have been destroyed  



As far as guides go, people will write new ones. Long before this guides would be obsoleted by patches, and it has proven to not be a big deal. If any of the players who wrote such guides are still active, they can of course update them as well. Any guide t hat is so specific risks being obsoleted by even trivial patch changes- Some defenses were buffed and this could impact guides as well.

ThePoet424 for the most part I personally share your opinion, however the effect seems to be a bigger problem in the mid=tier area than it is early or late (mid tier being like 1-2k, early game being less than that and lategame being more). So we should review the changes because it is affecting certain parts of the game more than others.. However, for a hotfix the only option is revert or don't. Any other gameplay change requires testing and thus must wait until a full update.

(as I mentioned previously I do like the idea of altering a wyvern's behavior when golded)

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The only times I've had issues with goldverns is on mix mode, but that's the nature of the beast when you have enemies that can potentially spawn with up to double or more health. If a Djinn golds the right wyvern, you'll want to DPS it or you're hosed.

I'd like to add my voice to the 'no need to revert' crowd. However I do think a couple improvements could be made to the game to help accommodate these more dangerous threats:

  • Make gold enemies visible on the minimap
  • Include some sort of tooltip that mix mode can make enemies spawn with random amounts of health, getting to pretty obscene numbers on later waves. That way players know what they're getting into when checking that box.

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Like I said earlier to you Acen -- how about we just revert it back to pre-8.2, for now. And then have a thorough testing for 8.3(or whatever the patch number would be) with different types of buffs, numbers and behaviour on Golden Wyverns and others.
I don't mind Golden enemies being a challenge, but the Golden Wyverns aren't really much of challenge the way some are suggesting it to be. Its hilarious to think having something get more HP is automatically deemed as a "challenge", yea right.

Regardless of how much HP a Golden Enemy gets -- one change that has to be there is to have them deal no damage to the crystal and rather head off to the defenses / players, whichever is close to them currently. That alone IMO solves the random 1-hko issues faced by people. Also if they are heading off for defenses, then let it be that they are prioritizing Harpoons, Fireballs, Lightening, DSTs, Magic Missile, Party Poppers etc. before heading for Minions. I suggest the prioritization of towers becasue of how easy it is for Minions to just turn around and whack the Golden Wyverns/Enemies without any effort. So in case of your back of the line defenses that are far off from the Minions at least you have to stay alert.
One another thing a Golden enemy can be updated with is -- if they are made/turned Golden, they lose their elemental immunity if they had it. Its a trade-off for having 5x HP and more damage(if that is a thing with Goldens).

One thing I notice here is that, those who are in favor of buff, are pretty much sitting at 5-6k stats. Where the Goldens don't really affect you that much, at least not on most maps. If you are using smart builds even the Wyverns can be easily dealt with at those Stats.
What these people are not understanding is that unlike them -- an average player who quite literally doesn't have even 2-2.5k stats and trying a simple survival game and having a Golden Wyvern or an Orc just walk straight past defenses and smash up the crystal is hardly a challenge; if anything -- it's infuriating and demoralizing. I'd suggest you guys to dump your "private taverns" and make a low level character(74-89) and do some pub games to see how people trying to progress are unnecessarily being shafted becasue of Goldens. I've done this and shared my experience with Acen already, and it was not pleasant to watch people really giving it their best in Sky City and having the boss down to almost half-hp and then getting rekt by a random Golden Wyvern. I can share more of these same experiences but you get the point.

A change to "your current build" is not an ideal solution to deal with Golden Wyverns. Trusted builds and guides are there for a reason -- to help new and old players alike. Do you really think it is smart for all these guides to be suddenly be outdated and obsolete because of one damn enemy type? Do you really want people to keep updating guides, builds and videos with every other patch release? LOLWHAT.


Personally for me, at my stats all my old builds for Sky City, Akatiti, Kings Game seem to be unaffected by any sort of Golden enemy. Even breezing past through King's Game and SKy City NMHC MM survival plenty of times. But I can understand someone not having 5-6k stats struggling with Golden Enemies, especially Wyverns a lot.


The only time I was having issues with crystals being roughed up was in Buc Bay(and mainly Pirate Invasion), which spawns way too many Djinns near the beach-side, and they spawn so far off that they are always "Goldy-fying" the Wyverns. I changed a few things around and now I have less issues there. But then due to having some more defenses at the beach-side crystal and less elsewhere -- I had an "isolated" issue with a Golden Orc walk straight past by the entire archer-Mage line and bang the crystal at mid 1 shot. I don't even know how he went through because the archer line was so close to the entrance. But whatever, I'm used to changing my builds all the time, at least 15-20 times before settling on a solid build.


Bottom-line is -- not everyone is a hardcore player like us who can easily adjust with the changes and adopt accordingly. some people play the game for fun and relaxation, and let me be very clear -- golden wyverns are not fun, not even a challenge to be honest. i dont understand why a casual player should be punished by such an annoying change just becasue the 1-percent top-end players found it to be a 'challenge', which it obviously is not.

do you want to drive people away from the game, or towards the game? before jumping on to conclusions about a feature/change -- try to think about others who are not on the forums but still playing the game.

Thank you very much.

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@Alhanalem quote:



As far as guides go, people will write new ones. Long before this guides would be obsoleted by patches, and it has proven to not be a big deal. If any of the players who wrote such guides are still active, they can of course update them as well. Any guide t hat is so specific risks being obsoleted by even trivial patch changes- Some defenses were buffed and this could impact guides as well.

ThePoet424 for the most part I personally share your opinion, however the effect seems to be a bigger problem in the mid=tier area than it is early or late (mid tier being like 1-2k, early game being less than that and lategame being more). So we should review the changes because it is affecting certain parts of the game more than others.. However, for a hotfix the only option is revert or don't. Any other gameplay change requires testing and thus must wait until a full update.

(as I mentioned previously I do like the idea of altering a wyvern's behavior when golded)

This is bull***... destroying all the work people have done in the past just because you feel 4-5 years later to be in need to change core mechanics... for you again CORE mechanics of a game? You are totally misplaced within the CDT with such an exclusive thinking just about yourself/high-end!!!


Anyone who thinks this is not an issue, lower your stats to 1-2k across the board, play a few survivals on mixmode, this includes your DPS toons and also weaponry and pets. You guys always state your mind with stats of 5k-7k in your back. You do not understand that you cut progression once again down to Lab Assault. What's the point of a discussion to buff survival loot to bring it more in line with Lab Assault (requested several times, which isn't needed though) when you need excessively higher stats for a FULL deck of heroes while Lab Assault just needs one low-tier DPS toon. The balance between survival vs Lab Assault has been heavily affected by this change. Golden Wyvern are a major issue!!!


You want a challenge (golden wyverns are not a challenge but an annoyance)? Why can't you handicap yourself? It isn't such a big deal to create a challenge, is it? I'm sure Akatiti NMHCMM, Tinkerer's Lab NMHCMM or Embermount NMHCMM offers enough challenge for an full 8k deck of heroes. What's about pirate invasion? Is it too easy for high-end players? Don't say you don't have any challenges left in this game.


There are so many challenges you can seek and create once you think out of the box but sadly many players are limited (not meant offensive, it seems to be a fact that many players have no idea how to create challenges).


Beat the game with godly heroes, builders and dps, too easy or already done? Lower your stats once again!!! You want a challenge - fine... why does it have to affect every other player. People are continously claiming there is a huge gap between Insane and Nightmare. I always said there isn't (once you are more felxible with difficulty settings) but you defeitely do not decrease the "gap". It reads like people lost the connection to the actual player base, the majority does not run around with 5-7k stats. Play more public, join others, get a stronger connection to the player base. These 1-3% of the community who are arguing here with their 5-7k stats does not mirror the majority! Period! 

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@Black Mamba quote:

One thing I notice here is that, those who are in favor of buff, are pretty much sitting at 5-6k stats. Where the Goldens don't really affect you that much, at least not on most maps. If you are using smart builds even the Wyverns can be easily dealt with at those Stats.
What these people are not understanding is that unlike them -- an average player who quite literally doesn't have even 2-2.5k stats and trying a simple survival game and having a Golden Wyvern or an Orc just walk straight past defenses and smash up the crystal is hardly a challenge; if anything -- it's infuriating and demoralizing.


I'd suggest you guys to dump your "private taverns" and make a low level character(74-89) and do some pub games to see how people trying to progress are unnecessarily being shafted becasue of Goldens. I've done this and shared my experience with Acen already, and it was not pleasant to watch people really giving it their best in Sky City and having the boss down to almost half-hp and then getting rekt by a random Golden Wyvern. I can share more of these same experiences but you get the point.

A change to "your current build" is not an ideal solution to deal with Golden Wyverns. Trusted builds and guides are there for a reason -- to help new and old players alike. Do you really think it is smart for all these guides to be suddenly be outdated and obsolete because of one damn enemy type? Do you really want people to keep updating guides, builds and videos with every other patch release? LOLWHAT.

Absolutely! You got the point... +1


If you have to care more about Wyvern than Ogres then something is wrong! Period. Is the CDT unable to concentrate on Quality-of-Life changes, new content and actual reported bug-fixes? The CDT has been NOT introduced to change DD's CORE. You are not changing a single thing within the game, everything is connected each other and changing it's core you change DD's charm it had. For you all, it was fine several thousands of hours. You are blind if you think you are doing it better than what happened with DDE.

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@harry4550 quote:


@Atherial quote:

i use the same build as acen for akitki.

I think i found your problem...

(joking its actually a decent build)

:) 

good one harry i never thought that could be the issue.

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now on a more serious note i think eagle might have a point here changing a core aspect of DD effects everything that was already in the game. i feel going forward it would be a smart idea to only implement changes that effect specific content that yo have implemented so lets say for example yo make a new map called "dragons caverns" for example and on this map you want wyverns to be a bigger deal. so you make them have a high base and golden on the set map like you did with the harbringers.

The harbringer is a perfect example of this it is a cool idea that makes ember harder but does not affect past content. it makes you need to alter bilds around them on a primary map. that map being ember but does not affect maps like deeper well. this way we keep the content the same leading to the lost shards maps. so lets say on dragons caverns we want to have two times during the map a swarm of wyverns charge in first time they are normal then golden. wel with the current wyverns (before patch) this would not be a issue the aura would kill it making the mechanic worthless. but if on that map specifically you set the wyverns to be called lets say "Dragon Wyverns" and alter the stats to be balanced that way this means you place those in as opposed to the basic ones making the previous maps not effected by the new wyverns but that one map ha a new thing to think about and work around.

This way each map that you make has something to build around if you want a challenge but if you want to keep running the old maps you are still fine. i feel that this new wyverns are not healthy for a new player since it makes the maps harder and even some of the how to reach end game guides incorrect. 

Using this new method of building upon the game mechanics in the new content that you make it means that you keep the people that like the game the way it is happy and the people that want a change to a mechanic since they can run the new map to see it. also i feel that it would help with the time line of new content if you do not focus on the past (other than bug fixes and that sort of things) and instead focus on the future and making new mechanics for the maps that you are adding to the game. remember a change to wyverns does not get people back to the game a new map does. if anything this forum proves that a change to the core mechanics that made DD great would have the other effect ultimately damage the player base. 

I may have to make another post on this later but for now that is all i have on this issue. All i can say is focus on the future and not the past. If you want buff wyverns then make them on a map that has not been in the game for 3+ years. make it on a map where people will think it is a cool adtion and a nice added difficulty to the map. Where they have to take it in account and build around it. 

no hard feelings 

> Atherial 

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@Atherial quote:

-snippet-

Perfectly, I couldn't agree more +1

A new type of flying enemy which will be added in future content and propably retrospectively in Embermount Volcano would be a great solution nobody had yet. This would mean more work for now but the previous game wouldn't be affected that much.


On a further note; If the CDT plans to port more content from DDE to DD1 then we will face most likely more new enemy types (Infected Ruins had a new flying enemy and boss I liked). Since Atherial mentioned Shard maps, once all new enemy types (Harbingers, Bees, Sieges, Armored Ogres(?), ...) has been introduced, the CDT is probably able to integrate a new difficulty which includes also the newest enemies on older maps.


I know this isn't an easy task, neither scripting- nor time-wise but it would be an ultimate long fulfilling goal and (exclusive) challenge for high-end players. This new difficulty should not reward better items, it should and could be played for the challenge itself marked as high-end challenge without better drops than from NM. So players get the point of it as challenge and not as part of the progression. Much talk, it all depends on the power and willing of the CDT.

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Just to clarify since it may have got lost.

Black Mamba A revert is in progress currently as part of a possible hotfix build. We are working with trendy to do this so that we could get a consensus on how to properly address the gold enemy buff and players can continue to enjoy the game as they have in the past since it seemed to be affecting a large portion of players.

Also I would ask that everyone be respectful of others opinions.  We are happy to hear from a broad spectrum of players on the subject, those with low stats and those with high stats.  One liking a change because they have high stats and can handle it is just as valid as some with lower stats saying they don't like it and can't handle it.  That tells me it is good in some areas but needs some work still which is why we have this discussion going and a revert planned while we discuss so that we can take our time to figure out what works best for the community as a whole.

Eagleone  CDT members sharing their own opinions does not mean we are not looking at others and just looking at our own gameplay or high end. Not everyone in the group is high end to begin with.  So feel free to keep sharing your own thoughts and encourage others whom you encounter to share their thoughts, either here or on steam.  Maybe add a link to your guides encouraging others to share their opinions here or there.  

Atherial we have actually discussed doing that with new mechanics and look forward to hopefully tackling a new difficulty in the future.

One last thing. I have seen a couple of comments about not changing core mechanics that have been there for years yet have also seen suggestion to change the core mechanic of a wyvern when golden to go after defenses instead of the core.   So is changing a core mechanic ok on a case by case basis then?  Just trying to get a feel for how players are looking at things  


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removed my first post since i do not feel it represented what i wanted to say at the time and that it was not correct in it's opinion and mood.

> Atherial

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Not sure if this has been mentioned already but Golden Wyverns on Volcanic Eruption are extremely annoying as they target the crystal straight away and have insane amounts of hp. A slight nerf would be ideal in my opinion, not to make the game easier but just to help ya boi out.

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@ddace quote:

One last thing. I have seen a couple of comments about not changing core mechanics that have been there for years yet have also seen suggestion to change the core mechanic of a wyvern when golden to go after defenses instead of the core.   So is changing a core mechanic ok on a case by case basis then?  Just trying to get a feel for how players are looking at things  


Basically a big NO to any core changes. The suggestion to change wyvern target prioritizing is a result of your massive health and damage buff (from 15% to 500%) to them. While this suggestion offers a workaround for straight forward going Wyverns it does not affects maps like Greater Turkey Hunt. The map was hard before not only you have to kill all turkeys within the timelimit but also survive anti-heroes, golden Dark Elf Warriors and golden Spiders. With current buff this map is even harder to complete for any mediocre player and high-end player. Get webbed by a spider with up to 4m health and you are dead followed by several golden DEWs.

GTH² is just one explicit example I can think of right now because it happened to me before I've quit when I tried to help a buddy through this mission. Anyways, also this map has to be considered when buffing golden enemies. I still don't get the single step from 15% to 500% buff. This is not a small change just like the change for the SND from 0.75m DPS to 4.2m, that's also a buff of ~560%. Can't the CDT perform smaller changes in firts place? This would minimize extremely the risk to make mistakes, to add more harm than anything else.

A previous buff is too low or doesn't show an intended effect? Fine, let's buff it again for a small percentage for the next update until we get closer to what we are looking for. Performing huge changes will always lead to issues, crzy can do as much math as possible but when you didn't thought about a single case you screw things up. I doubt nobody of you thought about mixmode wyvern, I doubt nobody of you thought about GTH², while numbers on the paper are looking good it does not have to apply perfectly for every case within the game.

The Appeal: Do more small changes. They can be controlled and checked out way better than huge changes. Doing so you get an instinctive feeling rather than working with wrecking ball. No clue if you get the point, there isn't a translation for this german idiom.

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@Black Mamba quote:

A change to "your current build" is not an ideal solution to deal with Golden Wyverns. Trusted builds and guides are there for a reason -- to help new and old players alike. Do you really think it is smart for all these guides to be suddenly be outdated and obsolete because of one damn enemy type? Do you really want people to keep updating guides, builds and videos with every other patch release? LOLWHAT.

This is actually exactly what I was saying, and I still think this is fine, for high stats. I enjoy updating my builds for new situations. I absolutely admit that I have no idea how it affects players just breaking into NM, and I agree that if they are struggling, then a change is in order

[[98289,users]]:

I agree that for all new content, it should be limited to new maps. I don't think this golden enemy thing falls into that category though, it is a change to the current game mechanics. Just like you the new jester towers were not restricted to a new map, this change should affect all maps.


Regarding changes to core mechanics:

I agree that changes to core mechanics should stay at a minimum, and if they are changed at all it should be tentatively. However, this is more of a balance issue, or really a bug caused by a shortsighted constant buff rather than a percentage buff. It did not scale properly when harder maps came out, to the point where golden enemies were a joke on the later maps; that is why I don't see a problem with how it is now, in theory at least. I do not like the idea of changing the targeting of wyverns to go after defenses instead of the crystal.


Overall I would be happy with a revert on golden enemies in the hotfix, so that we can find a better solution for the next patch.

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@ThePoet424 quote:

-snip-

Overall I would be happy with a revert on golden enemies in the hotfix, so that we can find a better solution for the next patch.

^ this. Since I started from scratch I have had my frustrations over golden enemies, both orcs, archers, and wyvern. 2 maxed archers (summoner: 2.8k tower damage, 1.5k rate) on a maxed buff beam could not kill a single wyvern wave 18-19 on Aquanos when I tried to farm seahorses. This was a combination of awful targeting and the high amount of HP... I'm all in for a revert at this point, then argueably smaller values in a future patch.

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@johan_kid quote:


@ThePoet424 quote:

-snip-

Overall I would be happy with a revert on golden enemies in the hotfix, so that we can find a better solution for the next patch.

^ this. Since I started from scratch I have had my frustrations over golden enemies, both orcs, archers, and wyvern. 2 maxed archers (summoner: 2.8k tower damage, 1.5k rate) on a maxed buff beam could not kill a single wyvern wave 18-19 on Aquanos when I tried to farm seahorses. This was a combination of awful targeting and the high amount of HP... I'm all in for a revert at this point, then argueably smaller values in a future patch.

Thank you very much to confirm such scenarios with lower stats. People often think I'm talking bull***, even though I take the time to lower my stats and run certain things...

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I have to agree even though i'm considered high end stat wise, this buff was way too much and could potentionally break progress on any map with djinn on it, some challenges and maps getting hit far worse than others. I remember the struggle I had when i first went into nightmare from insane, i didn't try any new dlc maps either. i started from the original campaign maps [ so no fancy post original map gear to work with] to save all the new maps for nightmare exclusively. I've definitely experienced some what.... moments to a golden enemy just blitzing pass defenses/ through defenses. I'd hate to imagine trying to get anywhere in nightmare now that gold enemies are more worrisome than ogre's. Particularly wyverns due to them specifically going after crystals first unless aggroed, though I've had my share of orc's ruining my run too. And I would imagine golden dew's would be very dangerous for starting nightmare when you don't have a good way to do a whole lot of dps yourself at the start, but especially low resistances of early game myth armor.

While it's definitely nice that 50% monster loot drops is rolled garbage on nightmare is gone, doesn't mean much if you can't reap the benefits due to op gold enemies wrecking havoc for anyone who doesn't already have really high stats before even reaching the right waves. though while high stat users wont be affected too much depending on map, just change the build around. Ones who don't have that luxary, what are they gonna do? It's become blatantly clear to me that buff was specifically to make maps harder for high stat users without too much thought on the side affects of low stat ones.

While I do like the new challenge myself, I did give it a try to see what it could do to early nightmare. It definitely isn't pleasant that's for sure based on what gets the golden powers. Any map where djinn and wyverns spawn way out in the abyss are especially a big threat to the point of being broken. Sky city is the first thing that comes to my mind. But I'd imagine something like crystaline dimension and the docks on Buccaneer Bay would be bad too.. But especially Volcanic eruption if that happens, due to that crystal really being frail with how that map works.

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Looks like we will start with a lower buff and let eveyone test from there.  Thanks for all your input.  We will discuss further once the beta is out and everyone has a chance to look at it.

Thanks

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