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Black Mamba

[Suggestion] Bringing WW weapons on par with current high-top tier weapons.

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Winter Wonderland even after these many years still remains one of the hardest and most fun map to farm.
Yet, other than Coal & Santa Accs, there is really no reason to farm this map becasue the reward items, especially the weapons are absolutely trash. And you can farm the Santa Accs elsewhere for minimal effort anyways.
There is no benefit in getting legit good stats Ulti/Ulti+/Ulti++ reward weapons from WW if they scale horribly compared to some of the newer map weapons.

I'm not suggesting them to be buffed exactly like the new weapons, but rather make them somewhat viable alternative for people at the 80-93 level range, so that some might actually use them instead of selling it bank or keeping them as Tavern decoration at best.

The thing is, there is so much variety in the game, but becasue of a select few top-tier weapons(that scale like monsters!) the other weapons get totally ignored and are pretty much trashed in comparison to these OP weapons.
As a result of this, every pub game you go to -- looks "samey", since everyone has the same stuff, same weapons.
There is no variety and fun in that, especially considering the huge potential here.
Besides it's not like WW is an easy map for everyone so if WW weapons are buffed there won't be any significant impact on the current economy.

I have had a long chat with Acen regarding this, and we agreed that at least Spear of Light and the Frost Sword could use some love. But I'm open to the North Pole Staff and Snowball Launcher getting a bit of love as well.

Since there is no poll option here(miss the legacy forums :/ ),
I'm considering making a Strawpoll regarding this(let me know if one should be made).

Again, I'm not suggesting to buff the core-drop versions of the WW weapons, but only the reward ones. These are:

  • Spear of Light -- Monk.
  • Blade of the North -- Squire.

  • The North Pole -- Apprentice.

  • Santa's Snowball Launcher -- Huntress.

These 4 are extremely cool-looking unique weapons that people may find fun to play around with provided they have respectable damage scaling. Because right now as it stands, they don't. And they just make for good decoration material, and that's that.

So with all that said, please chip in your views and why you think they should be buffed or not buffed.

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 → Anything that gives me more incentive to farm WW is a +1 from me! (I don't have the willpower to farm enough coal for another diamond atm... haha)

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While it may draw more attention to the map, the accessories just got buffed and Diamonds are tower pets that reliably have rather good stats. Granted it does take a long time to farm them.

My biggest issue with buffing the weapons is that it begins the process of making it closer to a "one stop shop" type map like Lab Assault - there are so many potential benefits to farming it that anything else becomes obsolete to farm.

Items you can currently get from WW campaign:

Supreme/Ultimate(?) Santa Beard and Hat
Ultimate(+/++) pets for tower or Fairy / Genie
Ultimate(+/++) Wolfhunter's Bow / Lupine Bow
Coal -> Diamonds / Primary small payment method
Armor in Campaign rewards

I personally can't justify adding even 1 more item to that list.

Furthermore I do not think that Winter Wonderland is hard enough to justify a single top tier weapon given its current rewards.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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-- Santa Beards aside, ToL offers better Hats and Bows(looks wise) and with similar stats as WW and twice as many drop if you do the code, all the while being way easier to farm than WW.
-- Lab Assault offers those pets as well(if I'm not mistaken?), and by the time you get a Ult++ Genie/Fairy from WW, you'll have collected more than enough of those from Lab, at minimal effort.
-- Ulti++ Lupine Bows can be found easily on ToL and elsewhere(Survivals). Besides any more than 500 base dmg and 5000 elemental dmg and that lupine bow is trash in my opinion, which most Ult+/Ult++ would be to begin with.
-- I think Coal is the only thing bringing people back to WW. Nothing else, maybe Santa Beards, but I'd much rather swap a good looking mask from Lab with 50-60 less stats than equipping hideous Santa Beards, or for that matter Santa Hats <---- Subjective opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-- WW Armor is trash(at least it was when I used to play 2 years back, dunno now). Lab gives better armor in minimal effort. Its a no-brainer.
-- You can do close to 2 runs of Akatiti by the time you finish WW, and you are pretty guaranteed an ult Obsidian in those many runs with AFKs, and its easier to farm even with low stats. Moreover most Ult/+/++ Obsidian you can sell for more coal than you will get on 1 WW run. So there's that.


In conclusion:
The time and effort required to beat WW is way too high compared to what you can get from Lab Runs and Akatiti/Kings Game/Moon Base runs in terms of Accs and Weapons. There is no incentive to farm WW other than coal and an occasional Santa Acc.

Also, I'm sorry -- don't take this the wrong way -- but I don't get this logic -- "I have 7k stats map is not hard enough for me, therefore map wouldn't be hard for anyone."  Do some pubs( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) and you'll see that a majority of the community is hardly over 1.5-2k stat and when they can farm other maps much easier and sell the stuff for more value than an WW run,. It leaves no incentive for anyone with low-mid stats to farm WW especially if its core reward weapons are about as trash as Lab Weapons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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@Black Mamba quote:

-- Santa Beards aside, ToL offers better Hats and Bows(looks wise) and with similar stats as WW and twice as many drop if you do the code, all the while being way easier to farm than WW.

ToL is a real f*cking pain. The last part of your assertion is subjective.



@Black Mamba quote:

-- Lab Assault offers those pets as well(if I'm not mistaken?), and by the time you get a Ult++ Genie/Fairy from WW, you'll have collected more than enough of those from Lab, at minimal effort.

Lab Assault gives Griffins, Hawks, and Dragons. And only Griffins, Hawks, and Dragons.


@Black Mamba quote:

-- You can do close to 2 runs of Akatiti by the time you finish WW, and you are pretty guaranteed an ult Obsidian in those many runs with AFKs, and its easier to farm even with low stats. Moreover most Ult/+/++ Obsidian you can sell for more coal than you will get on 1 WW run. So there's that.

A fast Akatiti time is 23 minutes. A normal Akatiti time is 26 minutes.

A fast WW time is 25 minutes. A normal WW time is 28  minutes. In fact I just did one [WW run] that took 28:35.


@Black Mamba quote:

In conclusion:
The time and effort required to beat WW is way too high compared to what you can get from Lab Runs and Akatiti/Kings Game/Moon Base runs in terms of Accs and Weapons. There is no incentive to farm WW other than coal and an occasional Santa Acc.

King's Game gives pure garbage 99% of the time. Akatiti rewards are crazy broke and should not be the standard by which maps are judged in much the same way that Rainmaker should not be the standard by which apprentice staffs should be judged.


Just giving my perspective. I don't really care one way or the other if it actually goes through because I think WW drops look like garbage and I wouldn't use them anyway.

I guess at this point I'm just playing Devil's Advocate

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On the contrary I find ToL as pretty damn easy once you get a hold of what you are required to do in it and how to do it. I've farmed it well over 140-150 times never failed once I got a build finalized for it. If anything I've even farmed it with level 78 godly+myth non-matching gear wearing pub-players when I wasn't even at my current 6k stats. It's easy as hell and rewards good stuff almost every run + DOUBLE the accessories if you do the code.

Thanks I stand corrected on the Lab Pets thing, it just so many pets to deal with after lab runs that I forgot what drops and what doesn't. Although having said that, a 20-21k Genie is more than enough to leech mana and upgrade. While Fairies are nice, they are fairly limited to what maps you can actually use them(efficiently) since most maps and boss runs you can do easily without having the need for a Fairy. They are just overrated IMO for players feeling insecurity about their skills.

King's Game is actually a great map for people stuck in the progression roller-coaster to get moving again by farming it(which is easy) and selling the loot. RNG is RNG, you can't blame a map for giving you bad drops becasue of RNG. If that was the case, CD and Tinkerer's would be the absolute worst since I've only gotten maybe 2-3 Ults from there, rest all were garbage in the countless runs I've done.

I'm not sure if you were around the time Akatiti was released, but back then there was a significant void in terms of "stat" weapons. Which Akatiti filled in perfectly well for the difficulty it offered. Even today for most inexperienced runners, its a hard map to tackle with 4 actives, let alone AFKs. While yes, Pew(EagleOne) and some others have demonstrated that it can be done at 1 - 1.5k stats, we have to consider who really was running the map with those stats, that makes a huge difference. I've seen plenty of people with 3k stats struggle with Akatiti.


" I think WW drops look like garbage and I wouldn't use them anyway. " Cool, one less to worry about running around with same weapons as mine! (That was on a lighter note)

And my point about ToL being easy isn't subjective, its a fact that ToL is pretty easy ONCE you figure it out. Although personally for me even WW is easy having farmed it ridiculous amounts of time with 3 afks for the many diamonds I have(9 I think, 8 self farmed, not all from 88 WW coal, but most).
But when I said WW was hard, it was after considering how much or where the general players rank maps at in terms of difficulty. And as many people I've asked, 8/10 have said WW and Silent Night are hard and they'd much rather farm Lab and Moon Base and sell the loot for coals(and much more) instead of farming WW itself for coal. Of course my experience with pub-players doesn't necessarily reflect everyone's opinion, but that's how it is.


But right now, as it stands, WW offers no real benefit to someone even for farming coals, when most diamonds are so cheap in themselves. 10 cubes for 2 caps is like 60 coals give or take. 28 still less than what you'd need from WW, with no guarantee of caps. So really, why would ANYONE farm WW? Its economically feasible, more effortless and less time consuming to farm Lab and other maps when compared to WW. Just for genies and fairies and 2 accs? Not really. I wouldn't, and most don't. can you see how many pub games you can find for WW vs Lab/Kings/Akatiti/Moon Base and make out how people view WW and what they think about its difficulty + effort required.


Having said all that, thanks for your input.
I can't recall if Silent Night offers the same level stuff as WW or lesser or higher. Haven't played SN for a realllllllllllly long time. But if it offers crappier stat items than what WW offers, maybe just the rewards form SN can be buffed, dunno how that will work technically since its the same item from WW and elsewhere.

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@Black 



But right now, as it stands, WW offers no real benefit to someone even for farming coals, when most diamonds are so cheap in themselves. 10 cubes for 2 caps is like 60 coals give or take. 28 still less than what you'd need from WW, with no guarantee of caps. So really, why would ANYONE farm WW? Its economically feasible, more effortless and less time consuming to farm Lab and other maps when compared to WW. Just for genies and fairies and 2 accs?



Well first off, lemme know if you happen to find a double cap for 10cv, because about 95% percent of playerbase who actually has diamonds, will value them at 15cv. But actually the feeling of accomplishment aftert farming for your own dia is enough to make almost anyone try to farm one. And maybe some of us are playing because its fun, not for the stat race. Personally, i enjoy both, but i also cant stand to do lab. Maybe we shouldnt look at how efficent a map is, but how much you enjoy it.

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Yeah, my bad that was a typo. Didn't realise that and considering I wrote it at what -- 4am without any sleep, gimme a pass on that! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

To be fair Lab is boring as heck, but rewards quite well. I've farmed a respectable number of diamonds most were single caps or non-caps(RNG doesn't like me), but I do get your point. I had/have no regrets farming Diamonds becasue when I farmed then, ToTs weren't around, so there was an obvious incentive to farm Diamonds given that they were the best stat pets back then. It might be have been an accomplishment for only a very marginal playerbase even at that time, becasue most would just buy Diamonds rather than self-farming.
Although right now when you see there are other stat-pets around, farming WW 22 times with 4 afks and no failures isn't something everyone is willing to do, trust me on this -- since ToTs offer a good alternative to Diamonds why would anyone wanna farm WW? Ironically Diamonds are dime a dozen these days.
That raises another question -- if one an gets 4 ToTs in a run, and 4 coals in a run. Would they REALLY try to get 21 more WW runs just for a Diamond, when they have such a huge chance of finding better ToTs and would've found 88 ToTs by the time they farm 1 Diamond? You see the problem here?
There is no real incentive other than coal primarily for trading purposes in WW. Therefore having its reward weapons buffed to a decent level would at least offer something more that what it currently does.

How much you enjoy a map is a subjective opinion, but how much easier and effortless and better rewarding a map is -- is a fact.
Like I said, I don't like Lab, its boring. But I do also agree that its currently the best way to get good gear effortlessly for players looking for progression.

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WW seems pretty rewarding to me.  I've spawned four diamonds, three were double cap and one was single cap.  I've farmed hundreds of ToTs and my diamonds are better than all of the ToTs I've ever gotten.

I think WW takes less effort to farm than ToL, personally, and it might just be my luck, but ToL has never given me a usable accessory, even with the code to give two rewards.  WW has given me good hats, though.  (Good beards, too, but I'm tired of my female characters wearing beards :-(  Stupid beards.  I'll wear them because I want higher stats, but I hate them.)

...

Could we compromise and make some of the weapons better, but still not quite top-tier?  It'd be great if snowball throwers were decent, even if they were still outclassed by blaster rifles like every other non-event huntress weapon.

By the way, Lab Assault gives tigers, too.

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Clearly everyone has a slightly different perspective on the maps in terms of the value of the rewards, the fun to play and time taken to complete it.

I have to say that WW is one of my favourite maps in terms of design and bosses and that I wish there was more in-game reward for completing it (aside from the pleasure of doing so).

From my perspective, after I farmed my first diamond I never considered it a farming map as it took too long (well over 30 minutes for me, probably closer to 40 minutes - but I am a compulsive upgrader and I am sure I could do it in slightly less).

I would like to see more weapon variety in the game too but I appreciate that it is very hard to balance.

I would suggest increasing the coal drop to 2, 3 or even 4 lumps per clear. This means that what makes this map (with Silent Night) remains, without major balancing issues, and makes diamonds, more achievable particularly when considering how quick ToTs can be farmed.

Even at 30 minutes per clear, running the map solo should not, in my opinion, require 88 runs or 44 hours (excluding fails and d/cs) to get a diamond. 

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I think I might be the only one here that find ToL easy. >_>
Oh well... at least I have had legit good drops from it, all my builders have sick bows that I have had dropped from ToL. Which goes on to prove my point that a map shouldn't be judged by the quality of items it drops for you. Like Caimen was suggesting Kings is garbage becasue he got ***ty drops from there.

Could we compromise and make some of the weapons better, but still not quite top-tier? It'd be great if snowball throwers were decent, even if they were still outclassed by blaster rifles like every other non-event huntress weapon.

That's precisely what i'm suggesting, not making them top-tier, but keeping them within 9-12% margin and people might actually use them. I for one would gladly chuck my E-Cannon and Sparus in favour of a outlandish Snow Ball Launcher and a SpoL, even at the cost of lower stats and DPS!

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[[49571,users]] I agree, balancing can be tricky, but buffing the current reward weapons wouldn't be game-breaking.
I stopped farming after I made like 5-6 diamonds myself, the rest were either bought or traded coals for them and spawned them. But I've completely stopped playing WW since I can find coal easily from trading and in so far as items are concerned, well... WW doesn't hold a candle to most other maps.


I would suggest increasing the coal drop to 2, 3 or even 4 lumps per clear. This means that what makes this map (with Silent Night) remains, without major balancing issues, and makes diamonds, more achievable particularly when considering how quick ToTs can be farmed.

I mean, that could change the economy drastically. Getting more coal per run will increase inflation in prices while making coal even cheaper. I could be wrong since I'm no economist, but yeah, I'd have to disagree with that. Maybe 2 per char could be reasonable, but anything higher would mean a serious change in prices. Also in my 1.5-2 year absence coals to cube and coals to mana prices haven't budged a bit from their current range, so all of a sudden having double the coal drops may PROBABLY make coals cheaper. And I can see many being seriously opposed to that, given how stable prices have been, thus far.


*PS: Good to know I'm not the only one OCD'ed about upgrading everything to max! HAHAHAHA!

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@Caimen0 quote:

While it may draw more attention to the map, the accessories just got buffed and Diamonds are tower pets that reliably have rather good stats. Granted it does take a long time to farm them.

My biggest issue with buffing the weapons is that it begins the process of making it closer to a "one stop shop" type map like Lab Assault - there are so many potential benefits to farming it that anything else becomes obsolete to farm.

Items you can currently get from WW campaign:

Supreme/Ultimate(?) Santa Beard and Hat
Ultimate(+/++) pets for tower or Fairy / Genie
Ultimate(+/++) Wolfhunter's Bow / Lupine Bow
Coal -> Diamonds / Primary small payment method
Armor in Campaign rewards

I personally can't justify adding even 1 more item to that list.

Furthermore I do not think that Winter Wonderland is hard enough to justify a single top tier weapon given its current rewards.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Few points to add to the mix:

  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for pets → as has been mentioned, Akatiti provides much better prospect at reward (the weapons are much better), AND every single, usable non-Chicken pet (namely genies) that I'm currently using has come from Akatiti rather than WW.
  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for accessories → Even with the recent stat boost to non-Lab accessories, you'd be crazy to run WW over Lab Assault if you needed better accessories, simply given the relationships between time requirement & reward-quality / amount of rewards.
  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for armor → People spam Lab Assault runs or survivals for armor instead. From my experiences, armor rewards above the Trans quality are pretty rare from campaign, and even when you do get one on occasion, it's significantly less time-efficient than running a similarly-tiered Survival map.
  • I would argue that the average completion time for WW is a lot longer than the suggested ≈28min, for the lesser-geared Players who could actually use WW's rewards (it took me close to 40min running it yesterday, although granted I was trying to remember my build from forever ago simultaneously).
  • Diamond farming is fine where it is currently IMO (in terms of time required vs. quality of reward), but even if you can 4-Player AFK WW (you have to consider that a lot of people cannot do so...), it still takes 22 runs, which, if we use Caimen0 's suggested average of ≈28min apiece, comes out around a total of 10.3 hours (and once again, I think 28min is a pretty low estimate personally). Also note that the average, total Diamond-farm time is increased considerably for Players who can't 4-Player AFK-build WW. Under best WW-diamond-farming conditions, it still would take 10+ hours to farm a single one → The reason that I'm bringing all of this up, is that I'd bet that in 10+ hours of farming WW, you'd be lucky to get even a single usable Ult Acc, Ult(+/++) pet, or WW weapon reward. (P.S. as long as you can cap the amount of shot projectiles, Ult(+/++) Wolf Bows aren't any better for Upgraders than lower-quality Wolf Bows... sometimes, doing less damage with a lower-quality Wolf Bow and being able to keep an enemy alive to milk them for mana is actually better!).
  • Bottom-Line for WW-Farming: For reasons mentioned above, I still feel like the map is only worth running for coal, and that's why I'd be in support of increasing the viability of the weapon rewards.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (might as well keep the shrug emote going... hehe)

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@Black Mamba quote:I mean, that could change the economy drastically. Getting more coal per run will increase inflation in prices while making coal even cheaper. I could be wrong since I'm no economist, but yeah, I'd have to disagree with that. Maybe 2 per char could be reasonable, but anything higher would mean a serious change in prices. Also in my 1.5-2 year absence coals to cube and coals to mana prices haven't budged a bit from their current range, so all of a sudden having double the coal drops may PROBABLY make coals cheaper. And I can see many being seriously opposed to that, given how stable prices have been, thus far.

I am not sure that it would change the economy in any meaningfui way. The exchange rate might change, well this has happened for various currencies over the years that I have played (remember the mk 2) but this would work itself out very quickly particularly if anyone holding lots of coal (less than 88 I assume) would make up for any dilution in their value pretty quickly with the new drop rate. I hav played for such a long time I am not sure but I think I have seen the coal : cube rate get to 10:1 at times over the years I have played.





so an increase in drop rate for coal would seem to fit in with your concerns (even at 15 cubes for a double cap). By the way the two I spawned were both non caps.

it seems we both want more people to enjoy WW.  Me for the joy of the map and to make diamond spawning easier and more in line with the effort required for other (less beautiful tower pets) and you for the map and weapon diversity.


@Black Mamba quote:


But right now, as it stands, WW offers no real benefit to someone even for farming coals, when most diamonds are so cheap in themselves. 10 cubes for 2 caps is like 60 coals give or take. 28 still less than what you'd need from WW, with no guarantee of caps. So really, why would ANYONE farm WW?



An increase in drop rate for coal would seem to fit in with your concerns (even at 15 cubes for a double cap). By the way the two I spawned were both non caps.

it seems we both want more people to enjoy WW.  Me for the joy of the map and to make diamond spawning easier and more in line with the effort required for other (less beautiful tower pets) and you for the map and weapon diversity (something I am also happy to see but not so 'passionate about').

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@Plane quote:

WW seems pretty rewarding to me.  I've spawned four diamonds, three were double cap and one was single cap.  I've farmed hundreds of ToTs and my diamonds are better than all of the ToTs I've ever gotten.

6 nons and 1 single here, you not as rewarding as one might think. You are better off trading diamonds as currency is broken as hell and diamonds have always been undervalued (especially now) imo.

@g_cracka88 quote:
  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for pets → as has been mentioned, Akatiti provides much better prospect at reward (the weapons are much better), AND every single, usable non-Chicken pet (namely genies) that I'm currently using has come from Akatiti rather than WW.
  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for accessories → Even with the recent stat boost to non-Lab accessories, you'd be crazy to run WW over Lab Assault if you needed better accessories, simply given the relationships between time requirement & reward-quality / amount of rewards.
  • I have never heard of anyone running WW for armor → People spam Lab Assault runs or survivals for armor instead. From my experiences, armor rewards above the Trans quality are pretty rare from campaign, and even when you do get one on occasion, it's significantly less time-efficient than running a similarly-tiered Survival map.
  • I would argue that the average completion time for WW is a lot longer than the suggested ≈28min, for the lesser-geared Players who could actually use WW's rewards (it took me close to 40min running it yesterday, although granted I was trying to remember my build from forever ago simultaneously).
  • Bottom-Line for WW-Farming: For reasons mentioned above, I still feel like the map is only worth running for coal, and that's why I'd be in support of increasing the viability of the weapon rewards.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (might as well keep the shrug emote going... hehe)

The pets and armour are kind of a bonus but the accessories (accs) have potential of being good. The lab accs are random while on WW you are forced to get hats and beards. I believe if one would for example double the amount off accs WW would actually be a good way to get the accs, same thing is for GTH (pls CDT give me double accs rewards on GTH :3). Ofcourse nobody farms WW for coals these days because of treadmills, and the accs are kinda forgotten about even with the buff. 


Upping the amount of coals is an interesting suggestion as collecting 88 coals indeed takes forever (then again you gain something that lasts forever so...). I'm not to worried about CV anyway as coal has already dropped down from 10 to like 6 a cube (which makes farming coal not worth your time if we are going to play the time to currency game here). From a currency point of things lab assault has broken everything.


That being said I don't hink buffing the weapons to do more damage would hurt that much (unless CDT makes rainmaker 3.0). We could also nerf broken maps like lab but that would start a riot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

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Yeah, Rainmaker is... lets just say not normal as far as damage goes.
Any weapon that gets a damage/scaling buff to make it like a Rainmaker is a strong no IMO.

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Looks like there is definitely some interest in this.  I will take a look at buffing them but try to target the lower end of the current range of weapons given on bonus maps and challenges.  Thus they should be useable but not really replacing anything unless some just want some variety and a different look.

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Thanks Acen, that's exactly what's needed.  I'm guessing this buff would apply to existing weapons from WW/Silent Night, yeah?

Their stats are somewhat okay-ish if you get them on Ult+/++(usually with deep negatives) but the damage scaling is horrible of all 4 of the weapons. So IMO both stats and damage scaling could use a slight buff that helps in making the weapons somewhat usable but doesn't make them OP compared to the current set of weps.


An ideal position for WW weapons IMO would be somewhere above Moonbase & King's Game's reward weapons but below Akatiti / Embermount / Buc Bay levels.
Reason I suggested them being above Moonbase is purely based on the fact how quick and easy it is to farm Moonbase and consistently get good weapons that are better than their WW counterparts.

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@Black Mamba quote:An ideal position for WW weapons IMO would be somewhere above Moonbase & King's Game's reward weapons but below Akatiti / Embermount / Buc Bay levels.

Reason I suggested them being above Moonbase is purely based on the fact how quick and easy it is to farm Moonbase and consistently get good weapons that are better than their WW counterparts.

I thought we were talking about a bit smaller of a buff.  But in any case, definitely don't make the staff as OP as a fusion rift.  Rifts are crazy.

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You should see how poorly WW/Silent night weapons scale, as small buff of 10-15% won't be making them any usable.
They are basically 5% better than vanilla weapons, at best.

Rifts seem crazy because they are crazy easy to farm. There's an obvious risk/effort required vs reward "imbalance" on Moonbase given how easy it is to farm and how quickly it can be completed + gives good for builder pets. ToTs offer a good alternative to Diamonds and are significantly easy to farm vs Diamonds, plus you get Fish in Bowls too along with random wep/armor/pet drops much like WW, the only difference being is no Coals and Accs.
So on the same principle Lab is judged for being too rewarding for minimal effort, more or less the same applies to Moonbase.

There are 8 bosses in WW if you are playing with 4 people the evil heroes go well over 1 billion in HP. The Snowmen are crazy hard to beat if you don't have good boosters and DPS, and they will wreck the defenses. Then you have to consider how much effort it requires in the early waves for some people to finish the build. Whereas in Moonbase you can practically finish the build in the initial build phase itself.

So comparing all that ^ with Moonbase -- and yet it drops better rewards than WW, I think I'll stand behind my suggestion of having them buffed above Moonbase weps at least, it is fair whichever way you look at it.

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@Black Mamba quote:

You should see how poorly WW/Silent night weapons scale, as small buff of 10-15% won't be making them any usable.
They are basically 5% better than vanilla weapons, at best.

Rifts seem crazy because they are crazy easy to farm. There's an obvious risk/effort required vs reward "imbalance" on Moonbase given how easy it is to farm and how quickly it can be completed + gives good for builder pets. ToTs offer a good alternative to Diamonds and are significantly easy to farm vs Diamonds, plus you get Fish in Bowls too along with random wep/armor/pet drops much like WW, the only difference being is no Coals and Accs.
So on the same principle Lab is judged for being too rewarding for minimal effort, more or less the same applies to Moonbase.

There are 8 bosses in WW if you are playing with 4 people the evil heroes go well over 1 billion in HP. The Snowmen are crazy hard to beat if you don't have good boosters and DPS, and they will wreck the defenses. Then you have to consider how much effort it requires in the early waves for some people to finish the build. Whereas in Moonbase you can practically finish the build in the initial build phase itself.

So comparing all that ^ with Moonbase -- and yet it drops better rewards than WW, I think I'll stand behind my suggestion of having them buffed above Moonbase weps at least, it is fair whichever way you look at it.

I completely agree with all of this, for a while now ww has been the toughest campaign map to beat (Until ember came around that is) and its drops beside coal are complete garbage besides the slight chance at a good pet.

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Thanks you yes, besides Coal, Accs & Pets(both of which you can still get elsewhere for less effort) there is no reason to do WW or Silent Night for that matter.
I'm glad that many are in agreement that WW weps need a buff to make the map a favorable one once again, be it for coals, or weps.

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