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Dale.MH

No more achievements please

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Hello,

Great game and thank you for the new content. I welcome a new super hard map but why give it a NM achievement? I invested a lot of hours to 100% this game and I'm annoyed that I now have to complete a considerably harder map if I'm to regain my perfect record again. I'd rather have just played it for fun.

Thank you for reading,
Dale.

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The NM achieve was implemented to retain consistency with other late game map achievements, (See: Tinkerer's Lab, Winter Wonderland, etc.) as well as to allow those who have the ability to reach the endgame level to beat Embermount show that they are capable of doing so via Steam achievement.

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So you are saying there should never be new achievements for people who still enjoy the game because its an inconvenience to you?

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I am voicing my preference, as others are entitled to voice theirs. I should have also asked what are other player's opinions and of course if the majority prefer new achievement I would except that. Regardless I'm still enjoying the game.

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Well, I don't like new achievements over and over again. TF2 is a major example of blowing up achieves (not the case here yet) years after its release. Taking into account the difficulty of the map on NM it would have been just better without NM achievement. Compared to all other achievements and stat requirement this achievement is not only behind a grind wall but also requires well practiced and experienced fighting strategies. Maps like Akatiti and WW are way easier and doesn't require in-depth 'knowledge'. Most returning but also current players won't be able to do this on a legit way and it sucks most if you had all achievements before. So, I completely feel their frustration and share their opinion.

However, I also get the point that vets want to show off their success. The in-game badges are great for this purpose. Personally I think it should have been handled like Jingled All the Way, one achievement for completing it on Medium or higher. You still lure players back into the game but the frustration about a jump in difficulty keeps out (it's heavy discussed at the Steam forums) and others still can show off their Steam Achievement.

A reasonable compromise for vets, returning players and current non-high-end players.

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I'm not sure why this wasn't a problem when every map Trendy added after the fact had achievements for completion.

It's two new achievements, and it's not like they're insanely crazy.

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@Alhanalem quote:

I'm not sure why this wasn't a problem when every map Trendy added after the fact had achievements for completion.

It's two new achievements, and it's not like they're insanely crazy.

Game released Oct' 2011
Winter Wonderland added Dec' 2012
Temple O' Love added Feb' 2013
Tinkerer's Lab added Jun' 2013
...
Embermount Volcano added Aug' 2016

Do I need to say more? Adding achievements relative soon after release is absolutely fine but 5 years later when people already had completed the game for 3 years?


Since they are not insanely crazy I would like to see you completing the map on NM with mediocre heroes rather than your high-end ones while most likely using a Rainmaker. At best with a different build than I've used during my 2k run already shown at the forums.

On a further note; Every content of the game can be beaten comfortable with 3k stats but Ember on NM adds a new level. Upcoming Polybius will become even harder than on Open as rumors are surrounding. I know that you are on of the guys who are extremely focused about high-end, never looking back to feelings and wishes you also had once with lower stats.


If the CDT has not done quality-of-life changes and bugfixes, they are changing the game to the wishes of a few high-end players. New players don't even know (no offense, not that you new guys are dumb, you are just missing context) what you are talking about when changes are discussed and presented.
- introducing new difficulty level with ember, at first with very op rewards (thanks god someone was wise enough to proceed the nerf)
- introducing golden enemies, doesn't really matter for high-end, so you call it "good change"
- new events with insanely high stats or damage, but hey if they wouldn't be op high-end players won't use them right? I prefer them as reward, to show off that I participated at the event, i miss the days when they haven been equipped just for their look.
- ...

oh god getting in rage mode reading such a bs that ember nm is not a big deal -.- time to go out, having a break.

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I can understand the frustrations but, on balance, I like the addition of new achievements where linked to new content.


However, I would also be happy to see Pew's compromise considered too.



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Do I need to say more? Adding achievements relative soon after release is absolutely fine but 5 years later when people already had completed the game for 3 years?

I see no significance to the amount of time that passes after an achievement is added. So why is it okay after X days/weeks/months but not after Y weeks/months/years?

There is literally no way to please every single person. Some people like to have new goals to aim for, and that's what achievements are for to begin with. Other people get all upset because they had 100% and now they don't. Quite frankly though, if you can get every single one of the other achievements in the game, these newest two should be no trouble.


It's something that probably would have been done sooner BTW, but we didn't know if it could be done or not at the time (as I understand it, as that's not my area). Achievements are new content in a way, and some people have asked us why the new stuff doesn't have achievements. So now it does.

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@Alhanalem quote:

There is literally no way to please every single person. Some people like to have new goals to aim for, and that's what achievements are for to begin with. Other people get all upset because they had 100% and now they don't. Quite frankly though, if you can get every single one of the other achievements in the game, these newest two should be no trouble.


So you don't have an idea why adding achieves years after its release isn't a good idea? Well, I feel sorry. Let's add achieves for game which we have played 2004 *rolleyes*


I'm still awaiting that you will prove me wrong with a run by you done with 3k stats, not using a Rainmaker but even if you do so, don't forget that you always was in practice the last 3 years, knowing about new/better fighting strategies. It sounds more like you are disagreeing that Ember on NM is new jump in difficulty but then... well I wonder about certain discussions.

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I'm still awaiting that you will prove me wrong with a run by you done with 3k stats, not using a Rainmaker but even if you do so, don't forget that you always was in practice the last 3 years, knowing about new/better fighting strategies. It sounds more like you are disagreeing that Ember on NM is new jump in difficulty but then... well I know you are currently discussing this internal.

I'm not giving commentary on Embermount's difficulty- if people really have a problem with that, it's certainly something we can look at, but it's not an argument against achievements.

I'm merely stating the fact that achievements were added at other points in the game and nobody complained, but now that some arbitrary and undisclosed time period has passed, it's not okay suddenly.

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I like the difficulty on Embermount, and I can understand why people might think having an achievement for it is a bad idea, but I personally felt really good when I got that one.  It took us six or seven tries to clear it.

The Phoenix boss does seem really buggy and inconsistent, though.  I feel like the element of chance in the boss battle is too large, in part due to it randomly killing itself or getting stuck outside the map, in part due to its AI choosing to destroy your defenses, and in part because the map tends to be really laggy for everyone but host.  Right now I'm assuming the element of chance can be reduced if I can learn a bit more about how to manipulate the boss, but I have to admit sometimes it feels unfair rather than difficult.

By the way, lag can be very frustrating on that map.  Sometimes I can't see the fireballs, I can only see fire appear on the ground, often where I'm already standing, and by the time I realize I need to dodge I've already taken heavy damage.  Other times, the phoenix flies through us and we all die, but to us clients it appears like the phoenix was a safe distance away, so we have no way of avoiding our deaths.  I'm starting to think Embermount is best farmed solo.

Unless anyone has a low lag build?

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Achievements have always been to show off, never has it had any impact on the game. We shouldn't stop doing achievements to prove that we were able to beat maps just because some players want to keep their 100%. 100% completion is to show off dedication to a game. If you're dedicated, you'll come back and beat the map. Otherwise, you're clearly not that dedicated to the game which is completely fine.

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@Plane quote:

I like the difficulty on Embermount, and I can understand why people might think having an achievement for it is a bad idea, but I personally felt really good when I got that one.  It took us six or seven tries to clear it.

The Phoenix boss does seem really buggy and inconsistent, though.  I feel like the element of chance in the boss battle is too large, in part due to it randomly killing itself or getting stuck outside the map, in part due to its AI choosing to destroy your defenses, and in part because the map tends to be really laggy for everyone but host.  Right now I'm assuming the element of chance can be reduced if I can learn a bit more about how to manipulate the boss, but I have to admit sometimes it feels unfair rather than difficult.

By the way, lag can be very frustrating on that map.  Sometimes I can't see the fireballs, I can only see fire appear on the ground, often where I'm already standing, and by the time I realize I need to dodge I've already taken heavy damage.  Other times, the phoenix flies through us and we all die, but to us clients it appears like the phoenix was a safe distance away, so we have no way of avoiding our deaths.  I'm starting to think Embermount is best farmed solo.

Unless anyone has a low lag build?

I only played once and as a guest but the lag was bad.

I was sniped by a Harbinger in one of the build rounds when there was (according to my screen) no one near me and, like you, I did not see the fireball or even the fire on the ground. I did hear the noise of taking damage so at least next time I can listen out for that.

I intende to try solo as host today and hope it is better as it looks such a cool map


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The Phoenix boss does seem really buggy and inconsistent, though.

We're aware of a number of issues with the phoenix, if you could check the main discussion thread and post anything that seems new based on what's already in the thread, thatt'd be awesome!


BTW: If your "lag" is low framerate and not network lag, you can try adjusting some options. If you are using fireballs, inferno traps or other defenses that light up the ground and such, you can uncheck the option for dynamic lights on defenses. This will greatly reduce their impact on performance and may help.

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I don't usually care about achievements but because I like Dungeon Defenders so much I wanted to 100% it, which I only recently did. I found a few maps like Winter Wonderland and Crystalline Dimension very hard. At first they crushed me so I farmed better gear and tried again and again until I finally beat them solo. I though that was it, I've done it and I can go back to just enjoying the game.

That's why I was frustrated when I lost my 100% and if I though WW and CD were difficult, Ember is a whole new league.

I don't feel it would be fair to those that have beaten Ember to now make it easier. I'm going to take a time out and then try again. I can't even use my gear as an excuse because Eagleone not only beats it, but then kills it again with 2k stats, he should get an achievement for that (do not make that an achievement).

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@Dale.MH quote:

I can't even use my gear as an excuse because Eagleone not only beats it, but then kills it again with 2k stats, he should get an achievement for that (do not make that an achievement).

To be fair, I'm a masochists :o This is some kind of enjoyment everyone can decide for themselves. It's not like high-end players wouldn't have the option to dump their stat to create themselves a challenging game. Within the run you see so many 'hidden' mechanics and tricks.

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