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MrHotDog

Golden enemies after the CDT 2 Update

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After the suggestion of user Pew Pew Pew I moved this post here from steam: (Steam Forums)

I never make topics and stay sillent but this needs attention from the devs. After the recent patch the golden enemies got a huge buff getting a "better" scalling with the current state of the map.

On most normal maps they still are not that much of problem, if you have good gear they still die rather quickl. Then you try survival everything looks normal untill you hit the later waves, suddenly you are placed face to face with wyverns with strength and health of an ogre making some maps (Aquanos with Mix Mode for example) rather impossible to complete. In the 20+ waves wyverns from get buffed and just fly straight through all your defences without getting hurt alot and after reaching your crystal breaking it in a single hit.

Wyverns are not the only problem if you are clearing a path full of enemies and there is a lit Kobold in there it will most likely one shot you (500k health Jester with full resist). This should get attention and reworked as it makes some survivals more painfull than they should be.


Here are some of the (Usefull) reactions from the steam forums:

Alucard:

Yeah I can agree, I was playing bay, and a golden would have 108 M hp and a normal one would have 16 M.

Pew Pew Pew:

You misread Baron.

The difficulty spike was a rare bug. After completing certain waves enemies become tougher. Before the patch it was possible that the trigger for this was activated several times at once, creating unintended stronger enemies on next wave.

The new golden enemy mechanic has nothing to do with the difficulty spike modifiers. The CDT buffed massively the health of golden enemies. As long as I know they made the health 5 times higher, according to Alucard's post it would be round about 7 times for that case.

I don't have an explanation either why they felt to be in need to do this. Sadly there wasn't enough players saying anything against this when beta was out for testing. Either people didn't knew about or they were already so high progressed that the buff doesn't made a difference for them.

I think, having such a buff as penalty for messing up with Wheel O' Fortune would be reasonable but buffing golden enemies across the board was a bad decision. Considering low-end and mediocre stats.

Whatsoever, if you want a change or complete revert of this, you have to go to the official forums and leave your feedback there instead of 3rd party forums.
https://dungeondefenders.com/1/forums



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This could get a little long and numbery so I apologise in advance.

============================================

Starting off with the bug: Wave difficulty spike multipliers being applied a second time to golden enemies

Internally each enemy has a number denoting its strength and from that number its health, damage and speed are derived. When an enemy is golded, that number is increased. It is also increased (massively) by specific waves.

So when an enemy was spawned, the wave multiplier was applied. When it was golded the number was increased, and then the wave boost was applied **again**.

Enemy_Str = Base * Wave_Mult * Wave_Spike_Mult;

GoldEnemyStr = (Base * Wave_Mult * Wave_Spike_Mult + Gold_Boost) * Wave_Spike_Mult;

See that extra "Wave_Spike_Mult". That's the bug mentioned in the patch notes and its a > 2x multiplier

=============================================

On to the modification to how golding was applied.

The thing you may note from the above is that the "Gold_Boost" was added to the enemy strength. A Golden enemy was boosted proportionally **less** the stronger it was (with a high of 1500% for DW campaign and a ~20% change for Embermount).

Making their difficulty increase a consistent percentage removes this effect allowing golden enemies to retain their threatening effects in higher difficulty maps. It does require a benchmark point to be chosen where the old and the new will match up. Morrago campaign W12, the home of the djinn, was this point.

Including the bug mentioned above (the pre-CDT2 value), enemy strength when golded at this point increased by roughly 5x. Post update, this is the increase that is used across the board in NM.

=============================================

tl;dr

A bug was fixed which was causing gold enemies to be unexpectedly strong (but still weak). Fixing the bug exposed why gold enemies were weak in late maps (and made them weaker again), so the method of applying the buff was changed (so early game wasn't creating ogres) and dialled in based on original values on the map they were introduced on (buff weaker before Morrago, stronger after)

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Could you please re-phrase the post above crzy? Looks like you are exclusively talking about golden enemies strength. So about damage they deal to heroes and defenses. And it looks like low-healthy enemies receive a bigger damage boost than tanky enemies. Did I get the meaning of your post?

However, the major concern of this post was the health boost of golden enemies. If golden enemies ends up with health points you basically just see on (high-end) Ogres then there is something broken (talking about mix-mode).


A suggestion I did at another thread to compensate massive boost of golden enemy health.
(Ignore DST related stuff, I just wanted to keep the context)

Deadly Striker Tower

My suggestion aims (and improves) for both modes. Although DST snipes Wyvern and Djinns first I don't think we should use the argument of golden Wyvern to justify the extreme damage boost which it had in the beta before. If we do so then we certainly have to talk about many other towers which have to deal with a variety of golden enemies now but also with golden Wyvern. DST should not become a "must-to-build" defense to kill golden Wyvern in survival (and campaign). This is a clear indication that the golden enemy mechanic is at least partial broken. I don't really like the change of golden enemies at all due to the bad experience I already collected (in camp and surv) since the change is live. I think this change has been not thought out well, especially not for survival with enabled mix-mode.

I don't know if the CDT had the idea before but something which satisfies me while keeping the horrendous buff of golden enemies would be a change in their behave. Instead of prioritizing the crystal as possible target, golden enemies could act like Copter Ogres, trying to deal as much damage as possible to towers with physical health. This would allow for current health points they can reach which you actually just see on Ogres rather than on a small enemy. It would also prevent the annoyance of crystals getting one-shotted.

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Normal enemy level 1:

-- 100 health, 20 damage
Old gold version:
-- 1600 health, 320 damage
New gold version:
-- 500 health, 100 damage

Normal Enemy level 10:
-- 1,000 health; 200 damage
Old gold version:
-- 2,500 health; 500 damage
New gold version:
-- 5,000 health; 1,000 damage

Normal Enemy level 100:
-- 10,000 health; 2,000 damage
Old gold version:
-- 11,500 health; 2,300 damage
New gold version:
-- 50,000 health; 10,000 damage

Numbers are for no specific enemy or wave and are only relative to themselves. This is purely for illustrative purposes. The bug I mentioned above was also involved here making the old gold version appear 50% higher past wave 10, and another 55% higher again past wave 20 (for the level 100 example: 11,500 * 1.5 * 1.55 = ~26,700)

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Where do this type of internal level enemies appear?

Everywhere in the game or are they also limited to certain maps like
Level 1 - Base Game
Level 10 - Prior Moraggo
Level 100 - Moraggo and newer


What was so wrong about a boost which is proportional less as stronger an enemy is?

Needless to say that previous proportional boost was broken (or outdated) if we take a look on the old numbers but buffing strength and health five times across the board seems as broken as before. Wouldn't it better to just adjust the proportional boost? For example:

Level 1: Boost x15 (old x16)
Level 10: Boost x5 (old x2.5)
Level 100: Boost x3 (old x1.15)


Have you considered that Wyvern fly directly to the crystals?

I assume that almost nobody has an issue with grounded enemies since you stop them by building a Gas Trap. The Wyvern are the pain in the *** which won't even try to fight your defenses. They fly directly to the crystal without any interaction of them. We basically have to add an extra line of defenses now just for those golden Wyvern. [Hence some people want an absurd high damage dealing DST. This tower has not to become a must-to-build defense on survival or campaign, just to fight a Wyvern. If it comes to that I call that a broken tower for a broken enemy -.-]

Examples:
- Embermount Volcano: While south crystal is relative secure because they fly completely through your auras, north crystal looks different. To fight incoming Wyvern from north-west, you would have to free up defense and minion units. You cannot simply build a single Archer to support your Auras nor a single Proximity/Ethereal because of Djinns and incoming missiles and other enemies which will slaughter your defenses.
- Buccaneer Bay: West crystal, you have to add a 2nd minion line just for those incoming Wyvern but then they are shooting incoming Ogres while Wyvern just kills your crystal. Although of a 2nd line.

This are just 2 examples of survivals when playing with my almost 6k stats heroes. I can easily feel the frustration of others with lower stats, who are playing maps like Aquanos and Sky City. Don't say we have to change our builds. With 6k stats I cannot free up any more defense or minion units on maps like Ember or Bay, just to fight a stupid golden Wyvern. Keep in mind that this change has not been requested by anyone of the community but the CDT. You guys did that on your own for any reasons.


What's about my suggestion in previous post?

To be honest I couldn't care less if golden Wyvern wouldn't fly directly to the crystal. Also above mentioned suggestion with an adjusted proportional boost to make them still noticeable tougher but weaker than now would help to alleviate the problem. It feels like the current boost was more a band-aid than trying to adjust previous system. I could help if needed.



Edit:

Some pics to probably convince some people... easy to imagine what happens if you are playing Aquanos with stats what was considered high-end back in the days... they just break through right to the crystal.

Also the buff don't apply to every enemy as it seems.


no link sry cuz forums happen... http://imgur.com/a/6T1Et

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A lot of players use a six aura, three minion stack build on Tavern Defense.  It's relatively fast because it spawn kills in five spots, with a sixth stack at the center core to catch any stray wyverns. 

One of my friends has lower stats and used to be able to safely build TD with those stats, but now golden wyverns sometimes manage to make it through the auras and damage the center core.  Often, though, they end up trying to fly into the bridge and get stuck, so they just make waves take longer because the aura takes a while to kill them.

So far, my friend has still been able to grind for xp on TD with this build, but it isn't as safe, and the xp isn't as good or fast due to the delays and core damage.  Can we count this as another "broken" build?

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So what you're saying is an enemy that was trivialized by an error should stay trivial because one very sepecific build on one specific map isn't as good despite the fact that it still works but "isn't as safe"?


The fact is, due to a scaling problem, the djinn golding was strong when first encountered, but rapidly became trivial as you progressed further in the game because every other stat value scaled to drastically inflated values while the effect of golding became tinier and tinier to the point where most people dont even know if an enemy is golded beyond it changing color? Dijinn were basically a joke and you didn't have to account for them at all. They may as well have been removed from the game for all the impact they had. Would you rather they have done that?


It's just one of several issues that broke the game, but because some people got used to it, they've accepted the way it became and now they dont want it to be different because they're too lazy to develop another build, even if (in some cases) they acknowledge that there was a problem/bug/technical glitch/etc.

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Well, I think the build would have been safe at much lower stats than he has now, prior to the update.  I think any build that used to work but is now "broken" will still work with sufficiently high stats.

I can't see why you're taking such a hard line.  It seems unreasonable. I don't think anyone enjoys the game more following the change, so how was it an "issue that broke the game"?

Didn't Trendy play test NM years ago and decide the game was balanced the way it was?  Have they thoroughly playtested the new update and decided NM is balanced with the new djinn?

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I can't see why you're taking such a hard line.  It seems unreasonable. I don't think anyone enjoys the game more following the change, so how was it an "issue that broke the game"?

It's easy to say you enjoy the game more when it's easier. Who doesn't like easy? But what about the people who want a challenge? Don't they deserve to be able to have it? I'm taking a hard line (personally- my statements do not necessarily reflect the precise feelings of others involved)  because I think the enemy should be the threat it was supposed to be, rather than just an HP sponge or number on the enemy counter- That's what goblins, orcs, and archers are for. The Djinn's golding ability essentially had almost no effect on NM and above. The Djinn was the only enemy in the game that was drastically harder on easier difficulty settings than other enemies were. Can you not understand why I would see that as a problem?

It was an issue because it didn't function as intended, trivializing an enemy that was originally designed to be a threat such that it basically wasn't anymore. But you need to be careful about saying things like "nobody enjoys this" because you don't speak for everybody anymore than anyone else here does.

It seems to me that if people are still able to do what they did before  (perhaps with a little more difficulty), then the settings are in the right place. If the change meant people couldn't find a way to beat maps anymore or the difficulty changed very drastically, I could understand this more (and would probably advocate for reducing the values). Feel free to make a case for it, but since it has been said that people are still able to win, I would lean more towards looking at the exact values rather than entirely reverting it.

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@Alhanalem quote:

So what you're saying is an enemy that was trivialized by an error should stay trivial because one very sepecific build on one specific map isn't as good despite the fact that it still works but "isn't as safe"?

If you would have read carefully enough...

@EagleOne quote:

What was so wrong about a boost which is proportional less as stronger an enemy is?

Needless to say that previous proportional boost was broken (or outdated) if we take a look on the old numbers but buffing strength and health five times across the board seems as broken as before. Wouldn't it better to just adjust the proportional boost? For example:

Level 1: Boost x15 (old x16)
Level 10: Boost x5 (old x2.5)
Level 100: Boost x3 (old x1.15)


... doesn't look like I'm saying they have to stay trivial, does it? It's also not one very specific build like you seem to emphasize over and over again. I myself called out Embermount - a trivial map for you - Buccaneers Bay but also mentioned Aquanos as it was mentioned in the Steam Forums. I certainly know that Sky City will have a similar issue and just today I experienced an issue on Moraggo. That's already 4 maps by my own where 3-years builds are not working anymore. Plane mentioned Tavern Defense and someone else mentioned CD. So a total of 6 already.

You have to know we are not exclusively talking about highest-end 8k stats. Above situations will be worse with lower stats. I'm afraid that you can't or don't want to empathize with players which haven't reached high-end yet. There was always the discussion about an existent gap between Insane and Nightmare, you haven't done it better for these people who think so.


@Alhanalem quote:The fact is, due to a scaling problem, the djinn golding was strong when first encountered, but rapidly became trivial as you progressed further in the game because every other stat value scaled to drastically inflated values while the effect of golding became tinier and tinier to the point where most people dont even know if an enemy is golded beyond it changing color? Dijinn were basically a joke and you didn't have to account for them at all. They may as well have been removed from the game for all the impact they had. Would you rather they have done that?

Read my quote above... do you read a posting just partial? Or are my posts to long to follow accordingly? Not trying to insult, I just don't know where the issue persists. Probably it's my bad English, so a language barrier from my side.


@Alhanalem quote:It's just one of several issues that broke the game, but because some people got used to it, they've accepted the way it became and now they dont want it to be different because they're too lazy to develop another build, even if (in some cases) they acknowledge that there was a problem/bug/technical glitch/etc.

You can call out my name. I find it less aggressive than speaking of "someone". And as you see I'm not alone... again. As I said before...

@MrHotDog quote:Pew Pew Pew:


I think, having such a buff as penalty for messing up with Wheel O' Fortune would be reasonable but buffing golden enemies across the board was a bad decision. Considering low-end and mediocre stats.

I underlined the important part. To re-phrase it, high-end players won't notice any change in 99% of the time. The other 1% are accidents, wondering what happened and why. So what you did in first place was not making it "harder" for high-end but harder! for mediocre players.


Head-shaking... zero empathize with mediocre players.

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We all know people dont like nerfs. In this case, builds are getting nerfed because of a buff to the gold enemies.  As crzy pointed out, it was a bug and a fix was identified.  Is the fix perfect? Perhaps not.  Can it be changed still?  Sure it can.  Nothing is set in stone.

If the community decides it needs an adjustment, we can do that.  If it is decided that the community prefers the old gold enemies that just didnt make a difference, then the change can be completely reverted.

  





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@Alhanalem quote:But what about the people who want a challenge? Don't they deserve to be able to have it?

You haven't added a challenge for high-end but another barrier for mediocre players.


@Alhanalem quote:I'm taking a hard line (personally- my statements do not necessarily reflect the precise feelings of others involved)  because I think the enemy should be the threat it was supposed to be, rather than just an HP sponge or number on the enemy counter- That's what goblins, orcs, and archers are for.

People are talking most of the time about the Wyvern, you cannot build a Gas Trap underneath a crystal temporarily to stop them like you do with all other enemies. They completely ignore all defenses but the crystal. Hence my suggestion to actually go for towers with physical health to actually stress our defenses.


@Alhanalem quote:The Djinn's golding ability essentially had almost no effect on NM and above. The Djinn was the only enemy in the game that was drastically harder on easier difficulty settings than other enemies were. Can you not understand why I would see that as a problem?

I think everyone got the point when looking at crzy's numbers. Either it was bugged in first place or outdated nowadays due to much stronger enemies than before. The overall system of buffing squishy enemies much more than tougher enemies is great. The result wasn't that great. A buff of 15% for stronger enemies but a buff of 1600% for weaker enemies. A buff across the board is as broken as before. The suggestion I did aimed for a 300% buff instead of a 500% for stronger enemies. That's still a massive boost compared to previous 15%. Do you understand this?


@Alhanalem quote:It was an issue because it didn't function as intended, trivializing an enemy that was originally designed to be a threat such that it basically wasn't anymore. But you need to be careful about saying things like "nobody enjoys this" because you don't speak for everybody anymore than anyone else here does.

So you are not speaking for everyone. I share Plane's opinion though because these boosted enemies are still not a serious for high-end in 99% of the time. So an enjoyment looks different. Do you know what I do if I want enjoyment? I golden 2-3 Ogres now, this is pure fun and they won't go straight for the crystal but fighting me and my defenses.



@Alhanalem quote:

It seems to me that if people are still able to do what they did before  (perhaps with a little more difficulty), then the settings are in the right place. If the change meant people couldn't find a way to beat maps anymore or the difficulty changed very drastically, I could understand this more (and would probably advocate for reducing the values). Feel free to make a case for it, but since it has been said that people are still able to win, I would lean more towards looking at the exact values rather than entirely reverting it.

Exactly this is the case what happens with mediocre stats on survivals right now, crystals are getting destroyed for them. You are again still thinking exclusively about high-end.


As posted in one of above posts...

I couldn't care less when golden Wyvern would actually interact with your defenses. Make them even shoot fireballs like Fish-Wyvern from Aqaunos are shooting poisonballs. It does not matter as long they are not directly flying to the crystals. If this suggestion sounds to weird then you have to adjust the old buff system.

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Read my quote above... do you read a posting just partial?

No. I'm reading it. Is there possibly a miscommunication? Maybe. I will accept you at your word that you aren't intending to be abrasive. Also, when I said "some people," I didn't mean you exclusively, even though you may have felt I was trying to be passive-aggressive. That wasn't my intention.

I'm not saying that the values can't be re-evaluated. But it would be my preference to adjust the values rather than revert the change entirely- As I said before, the djinn's dificulty was previously porportionally harder the lower the strength of the enemies, which is unlike everything else in the game. Maybe we went too far in terms of trying to restore it's place. I can understand that. That's what these discussions are for.  But just to make my personal stance clear: I am personally opposed to reverting this change- however I'm very open to seeing it's values adjusted if most people feel the increase in pressure from this enemy was too large. Keep in mind that this change, as was illustrated earlier, also reduced the extremely high values at very low levels.


Exactly this is the case what happens with mediocre stats on survivals right now, crystals are getting destroyed for them. You are again still thinking exclusively about high-end. A revert of this change is not required but a better buff system, adjust previous buff system!

You misunderstand excatly what I'm thinking about. My idea of "high end" is almost certainly a lot lower than yours, and so I assure you, that's not how I'm looking at it. Having said that, I think we're really on the same page here given your comment. I certainly didn't say that it couldn't be better. By all means, let's go further into how you want it improved.

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@Alhanalem quote:

It's easy to say you enjoy the game more when it's easier. Who doesn't like easy? But what about the people who want a challenge? Don't they deserve to be able to have it? I'm taking a hard line (personally- my statements do not necessarily reflect the precise feelings of others involved)  because I think the enemy should be the threat it was supposed to be, rather than just an HP sponge or number on the enemy counter- That's what goblins, orcs, and archers are for. 

I probably shouldn't be chiming in here, but it did strike a nerve with me enough that I felt the need to say something.  To start, I don't intend to be antagonistic, so if what I say comes off as too abrasive I apologize; I'm merely concerned about this particular comment and its implications towards DD1's future.

Essentially, this kind of mentality is exactly what I was afraid of when the CDT was announced.  Concerns that don't fit a particular opinion are shouted down as noob fodder looking for easy farm.  People have been playing this game for so long, it's hard for them to remember that they've mastered it.  This kind of response is incredibly troubling to me.

People want challenge?  Okay, I can understand that.  You've been playing to an extent where now content feels trivial.  Well, you've mastered the game, it's going to be a lot easier.  That doesn't mean, however, that changes should be catered only to the players who already reached the higher end of the spectrum.  A universal change like this effects *every* player at *every* skill level.  If you want a solution that brings challenge to high end players, by all means that's perfectly acceptable.  But what about the people who *aren't* at this level?  You're setting the bar higher for anyone who's below it.

So to respond to your question, what about the people who want to enjoy the game?  Are their opinions now unnecessary because players at the top want it to be different?

As far as the golden enemies are concerned, I think there are perfectly reasonable adjustments that can be made.  But keep in mind that any change is going to effect everyone, and not everyone is at the same spot.  Perhaps the ability itself can be changed to something more engaging, something that requires attention but not overwhelming dps meters.  But for me, I get greatly concerned when ideas are shut out for the sake of adding challenge.  The mentality itself seems horribly exclusive.

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I think the new golden enemies are better than they used to be. It makes more sense to add a percentage of health rather than a constant amount. Whether that percentage needs to be adjusted is another issue.

Personally I think its fine as it is now. It is not necessarily a bad thing that old builds do not work anymore, as long as new ones can be found. If it makes the game slightly harder, so what? As long as it doesn't clearly break the game, and I don't think it does as it currently stands, then I think it is just a matter of adjusting or reinventing your old builds to work in this new system. Something to look forward to :)

For low-level players it makes the game easier. For mid-level players, anything harder than morrago will get harder. High-level players it should not affect much. If it turns out that this introduces too much of a barrier for mid-level players, which I doubt, it might be prudent to lower the percentage boost gold enemies receive.

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@Valthejean quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

It's easy to say you enjoy the game more when it's easier. Who doesn't like easy? But what about the people who want a challenge? Don't they deserve to be able to have it? I'm taking a hard line (personally- my statements do not necessarily reflect the precise feelings of others involved)  because I think the enemy should be the threat it was supposed to be, rather than just an HP sponge or number on the enemy counter- That's what goblins, orcs, and archers are for. 

I probably shouldn't be chiming in here, but it did strike a nerve with me enough that I felt the need to say something.  To start, I don't intend to be antagonistic, so if what I say comes off as too abrasive I apologize; I'm merely concerned about this particular comment and its implications towards DD1's future.

Essentially, this kind of mentality is exactly what I was afraid of when the CDT was announced.  Concerns that don't fit a particular opinion are shouted down as noob fodder looking for easy farm.  People have been playing this game for so long, it's hard for them to remember that they've mastered it.  This kind of response is incredibly troubling to me.

People want challenge?  Okay, I can understand that.  You've been playing to an extent where now content feels trivial.  Well, you've mastered the game, it's going to be a lot easier.  That doesn't mean, however, that changes should be catered only to the players who already reached the higher end of the spectrum.  A universal change like this effects *every* player at *every* skill level.  If you want a solution that brings challenge to high end players, by all means that's perfectly acceptable.  But what about the people who *aren't* at this level?  You're setting the bar higher for anyone who's below it.

So to respond to your question, what about the people who want to enjoy the game?  Are their opinions now unnecessary because players at the top want it to be different?

As far as the golden enemies are concerned, I think there are perfectly reasonable adjustments that can be made.  But keep in mind that any change is going to effect everyone, and not everyone is at the same spot.  Perhaps the ability itself can be changed to something more engaging, something that requires attention but not overwhelming dps meters.  But for me, I get greatly concerned when ideas are shut out for the sake of adding challenge.  The mentality itself seems horribly exclusive.

I don't think anyone is "shutting out" any ideas. As I said, I'm totally open to making changes. I just don't think we should completely undo it because it didn't turn out 100% perfect.

I understand how you felt when you decided to comment, buty you really shouldn't be troubled. I'm not sure where you got th at I'm shouting down opinions as noob fodder. I'm pretty much a noob myself. I don't have 12907432845 stats on my characters. I'm a content creator more than a player and have been for quite some time now.

The point of this change wasn't simplly to "bring challenge to endgame players." The point was to rebalance the enemy so that it is a relatively balanced threat at all levels. Right now, based on feedback it seems that the middle game is not where it needs to be- Which is why we should look at adjusting this, not reverting it. I'm well aware that everyone plays at different levels. as noted in General DIscussion, I've been doing a series of live streams with a friend who's rediscovering the game after years away from it. He has given me incredible insight at how a lighter player is seeing things (e.g. frustration when XYZ thing doesnt do what he expects, or reaction to an enemy killing something, that sort of thing). While I understand well how the game systems work and I know about the numbers and such behind it because I'm a content developer, I am just as casual as many of you are when it comes to actually playing. So please don't think I have some goal of making the game more hardcore-oriented than it is. I know full well from playing a variety of games (especially MMOs) where focusing too much on the smaller hardcore playerbase can kill a game.

I hope this helps you understand my feelings on this. Also I'd like to remind you that the CDT is not some exclusive club. We would welcome the help of anyone and everyone who wants to contribute, that's why the C stands for Community. :)

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@Valthejean quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

It's easy to say you enjoy the game more when it's easier. Who doesn't like easy? But what about the people who want a challenge? Don't they deserve to be able to have it? I'm taking a hard line (personally- my statements do not necessarily reflect the precise feelings of others involved)  because I think the enemy should be the threat it was supposed to be, rather than just an HP sponge or number on the enemy counter- That's what goblins, orcs, and archers are for. 

Essentially, this kind of mentality is exactly what I was afraid of when the CDT was announced.  Concerns that don't fit a particular opinion are shouted down as noob fodder looking for easy farm.  People have been playing this game for so long, it's hard for them to remember that they've mastered it.  This kind of response is incredibly troubling to me.

People want challenge?  Okay, I can understand that.  You've been playing to an extent where now content feels trivial.  Well, you've mastered the game, it's going to be a lot easier.  That doesn't mean, however, that changes should be catered only to the players who already reached the higher end of the spectrum.  A universal change like this effects *every* player at *every* skill level.  If you want a solution that brings challenge to high end players, by all means that's perfectly acceptable.  But what about the people who *aren't* at this level?  You're setting the bar higher for anyone who's below it.

Does it really affect everyone the same way though? I mean, isn't the issue raised here mostly exclusive to shards+ maps late survival waves on nm mm? Shouldn't survival nmmmhc for said maps be on the higher end of the spectrum? Is that something *every* player at *every* skill level should be clearing with ease?


They've already left old crutches mostly unchecked (lab assault, moonbase, etc) because of the outrage it would bring from certain players, so it's not like they have no options to progress other than clearing these maps on survivals with builds based around clusters of gas traps to deal with djinns only when they get close to your defense cluster, instead of at their spawn points.

Also i've said "they" but i really should have said "we" - i recently picked the game back up and deleted all my characters/gear to start fresh. The amount of progress you get to skip by doing something as easy as insane lab runs or insane moonbase is honestly mindblowing. The fishbowl i got for doing insane moonbase exactly once put literally every other pet i had thus far to shame by a couple hundreds worth of stats - despite having cleared harder maps multiple times.

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@Alhanalem quote:

I don't think anyone is "shutting out" any ideas. As I said, I'm totally open to making changes. I just don't think we should completely undo it because it didn't turn out 100% perfect.

I understand how you felt when you decided to comment, buty you really shouldn't be troubled. I'm not sure where you got th at I'm shouting down opinions as noob fodder. I'm pretty much a noob myself. I don't have 12907432845 stats on my characters. I'm a content creator more than a player and have been for quite some time now.

The point of this change wasn't simplly to "bring challenge to endgame players." The point was to rebalance the enemy so that it is a relatively balanced threat at all levels. Right now, based on feedback it seems that the middle game is not where it needs to be- Which is why we should look at adjusting this, not reverting it. I'm well aware that everyone plays at different levels. as noted in General DIscussion, I've been doing a series of live streams with a friend who's rediscovering the game after years away from it. He has given me incredible insight at how a lighter player is seeing things (e.g. frustration when XYZ thing doesnt do what he expects, or reaction to an enemy killing something, that sort of thing). While I understand well how the game systems work and I know about the numbers and such behind it because I'm a content developer, I am just as casual as many of you are when it comes to actually playing. So please don't think I have some goal of making the game more hardcore-oriented than it is. I know full well from playing a variety of games (especially MMOs) where focusing too much on the smaller hardcore playerbase can kill a game.

I hope this helps you understand my feelings on this. Also I'd like to remind you that the CDT is not some exclusive club. We would welcome the help of anyone and everyone who wants to contribute, that's why the C stands for Community. :)

I appreciate the response, that certainly clears some of my concerns.

So I think what would greatly help is where the common consensus is on what defines the "middle game."  As Meioh pointed out, Djiin are rarely encountered outside of NM, only appearing in specific challenges/extra maps or the shards dlc.  While the adjustments to make it scale between difficulties is certainly welcome, I do think that, at least in the game itself, there are varying degrees of Nightmare maps.  The gear itself reflects this by having so many different tiers in the difficulty itself.  My worry, essentially, is that having a flat buff to NM golden enemies, while effective in making it relevant again, is also going to have a side effect on those just breaking in to NM.  I myself haven't even hit the NM threshold yet just because it takes so much time to level enough characters and I simply don't have the time to do it, and a gold enemy buff worries me how early NM play will be effected.

As far as contributing is concerned, I'm not really sure what I can do other than voice my opinion on things.  I haven't worked in graphic design in ages and I know about one semester's worth of an intro course in java, not particularly useful.




@Meioh quote:
Does it really affect everyone the same way though? I mean, isn't the issue raised here mostly exclusive to shards+ maps late survival waves on nm mm? Shouldn't survival nmmmhc for said maps be on the higher end of the spectrum? Is that something *every* player at *every* skill level should be clearing with ease?

They've already left old clutches mostly unchecked (lab assault, moonbase, etc) because of the outrage it would bring from certain players, so it's not like they have no options to progress other than clearing these maps on survivals with builds based around clusters of gas traps to deal with djinns only when they get close to your defense cluster, instead of at their spawn points.

Also i've said "they" but i really should have said "we" - i recently picked the game back up and deleted all my characters/gear to start fresh. The amount of progress you get to skip by doing something as easy as insane lab runs or insane moonbase is honestly mindblowing. The fishbowl i got for doing insane moonbase exactly once put literally every other pet i had thus far to shame by a couple hundreds worth of stats - despite having cleared harder maps multiple times.

I agree that it certainly doesn't effect people in the same way.  And I think your quote reflects that perfectly.  You mention, for example, doing insane moonbase as an easy task.  I don't find it easy whatsoever.  In fact I still haven't cleared that threshold.  Though this kind of goes back to what I posted in the update 3 suggestions, as progression in DD1 is absolutely bonkers right now.

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@Valthejean quote:


@Meioh quote:
Does it really affect everyone the same way though? I mean, isn't the issue raised here mostly exclusive to shards+ maps late survival waves on nm mm? Shouldn't survival nmmmhc for said maps be on the higher end of the spectrum? Is that something *every* player at *every* skill level should be clearing with ease?

They've already left old clutches mostly unchecked (lab assault, moonbase, etc) because of the outrage it would bring from certain players, so it's not like they have no options to progress other than clearing these maps on survivals with builds based around clusters of gas traps to deal with djinns only when they get close to your defense cluster, instead of at their spawn points.

Also i've said "they" but i really should have said "we" - i recently picked the game back up and deleted all my characters/gear to start fresh. The amount of progress you get to skip by doing something as easy as insane lab runs or insane moonbase is honestly mindblowing. The fishbowl i got for doing insane moonbase exactly once put literally every other pet i had thus far to shame by a couple hundreds worth of stats - despite having cleared harder maps multiple times.

I agree that it certainly doesn't effect people in the same way.  And I think your quote reflects that perfectly.  You mention, for example, doing insane moonbase as an easy task.  I don't find it easy whatsoever.  In fact I still haven't cleared that threshold.  Though this kind of goes back to what I posted in the update 3 suggestions, as progression in DD1 is absolutely bonkers right now.

I think a lot of it comes down to those crutches i mentioned. Lab assault for starters shouldn't be cleared nearly as easy as it is right now - i doubt BF drills and abusing the bosses AIs is what they envisioned for this map when they designed its rewards.

Moonbase's kinda in the same boat, it's really easy to clear if you just focus on 1 crystal and let the other 2 die - specially because of Summoner. I was honestly hoping the first thing they would do for CDT is reign Summoners in (kinda like DDE did) - there's no reason they should be literally free DU added to every map if you use one. They should definitely be either balanced to be somewhat on par w/ main builders (or have a support role solidified) and use Defense Units.

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What's so hard about dumping your stats when you want a challenge? My build for WW NMHCMM got eaten too, Bay survival does not work anymore, Pirate Invasion is absolutely not worth to run anymore, Akatiti crytsal gets wrecked by golden *** Wyvern... Sky CIty broken...


Pretty much appreciate the work of the numbergod towards his/her beliefs... RIP DD... no fun anymore... bye!

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Reading through the responses so far I must admit that I am a bit mixed about this. The challenge is appreciated but that challenge might have its place in future maps/challenges instead of creating stir in the already well defined and well palyed maps. People have already pointed out old builds that used to work but no longer does

I see two lessons to be taken from this:

1) CDT should stay open to changes and ultimately giving the community what it wants. Kudos to ddace for reminding us all of this. 

2) Taking side with the CDT, it is easy to understand the frustration of the development team with members that spend their spare time on creating a better game. The community has been fairly lackluster in terms of response before the patch was released. At least I saw no complaints about Embermount boss or golden enemies. If they were there I take this back of course. I think most people only installed the beta to test a few things very casually in order to join some of the giveaways that were created with the goal of making people play beta more. When golden enemies were buffed it was from the very ratinal point of view that we should not have pointless/unimportant enemies in the game. Then we "might as well remove them" as Alhanalem said previously but it becomes the responsibitlity of the community to make sure that it's carried out properly.

Makes sense or is my english too bad for this elaborate discussion?

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I take it that if people don't comment on a change being discussed then they are not bothered either way. Just in case anyone is keeping count of those with a preference on this matter, I'm not in favour of this change. I do appreciate the continued support by the CDT and I'm sorry to be negative on this issue.

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@Dale.MH quote:

I take it that if people don't comment on a change being discussed then they are not bothered either way. Just in case anyone is keeping count of those with a preference on this matter, I'm not in favour of this change. I do appreciate the continued support by the CDT and I'm sorry to be negative on this issue.

Saying you don't like a change is just as valid as saying you like a change.  The more people that share the easier it is to see what needs to be changed or tweaked.

Seems like this definitely needs some adjustment.  The question would be does it need a full revert or just toned down from 5x to 2x or 3x?  Or do we need to change the gold enemy attack priority?

I personally wouldn't like a full revert as now gold enemies mean something and I don't just ignore them.  

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