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Can the Molten Challenge be done without Poison Dart & Frosty Node?

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Woa luxus!!!! Gobu :D Instead of 1 Video it's 3!!!

Reminds I did this with Barricades and once with squire dummys too. So if someone wants a Video "Proof" just replace all the Arcane walls with one of the Squire walls and you have exactly that.

I am sure same goes for actually AL Walls :d. Which also do hit back.

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@mindlessdefender quote:


@Madmanblazing quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:

I beat it using only Arcane barriers and Sky Guards only. easy pezy.  Be more challenging with 0 towers. DPS only.

Would love to see a video of your take/build on a nightmare 4 version of the map...



The video does prove that EV2 hero damage needs to be hit hard, often and quickly with the nerf bat, as does the Gun Witch.
I am aware that monk dps can be very high (I have a poor geared Monk with 1.5mil dps) but it requires a stationary target and 15 seconds to build up to that sustained dps with Dragolitch. And other then against dummies, you never or at best rarely achieve that kind of output.

I do feel that hero dps balance and output needs to be addressed asap, just as builder balance and output has been.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:


@Madmanblazing quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:

I beat it using only Arcane barriers and Sky Guards only. easy pezy.  Be more challenging with 0 towers. DPS only.

Would love to see a video of your take/build on a nightmare 4 version of the map...



The video does prove that EV2 hero damage needs to be hit hard, often and quickly with the nerf bat, as does the Gun Witch.
I am aware that monk dps can be very high (I have a poor geared Monk with 1.5mil dps) but it requires a stationary target and 15 seconds to build up to that sustained dps with Dragolitch. And other then against dummies, you never or at best rarely achieve that kind of output.

I do feel that hero dps balance and output needs to be addressed asap, just as builder balance and output has been.

Where is the "dislike" button? No offense, I just respectfully disagree.


@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Why not throw a Buff Beam on them? Can a buff beam make the boost aura stronger to provide even more DP? I would try this myself but I don't have an EV.

Buff beam does NOT make Boost aura better. BUT.... Boost Aura DOES make Buff Beam better. Also, you can stack 2-3 (maybe 4?) Buff beams to improve upon the improvements. Kind of wastes DU. But, it can be done.

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@SpiderDanX quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


Snap Snap Sniperoni Gobu

The video does prove that EV2 hero damage needs to be hit hard, often and quickly with the nerf bat, as does the Gun Witch.
I am aware that monk dps can be very high (I have a poor geared Monk with 1.5mil dps) but it requires a stationary target and 15 seconds to build up to that sustained dps with Dragolitch. And other then against dummies, you never or at best rarely achieve that kind of output.

I do feel that hero dps balance and output needs to be addressed asap, just as builder balance and output has been.

Where is the "dislike" button? No offense, I just respectfully disagree.


@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Why not throw a Buff Beam on them? Can a buff beam make the boost aura stronger to provide even more DP? I would try this myself but I don't have an EV.

Buff beam does NOT make Boost aura better. BUT.... Boost Aura DOES make Buff Beam better. Also, you can stack 2-3 (maybe 4?) Buff beams to improve upon the improvements. Kind of wastes DU. But, it can be done.

I kinda agree here with Spider to disagree with you Zimmer.

Monk does alot DPS on attack and Skills, the second skill can do constant spamable long reached AOE push backs from 300k-800k DPS! It's one of my fav builds for him Which is really strong you can clear waves easy with it. His first does alot damage too but i don't have the numbers for that one in my head + it has an instant kill if the enemy is frozen.

Squire can do the same his Flamesword does already alot aoe with a huge constant DPS in a huge range. But if you can also reach a few hundred thousand damage on Sword beams, or with slam you can come from 300k-2M damage, or even instant kill high health targets when they are frozen.

The instant kill should not be underestimated with so many freezing sources and i actually use it as an active playstyle and have seen already alot other too.

A Gun Witch (halfgood geared) can already do with her normal primary attack 300-600k dps, With her Snipe up to 300K-1m DPS roughly, or even higher if you chain combo your spells right. I rarely do it because for me the normal snipe mode is already enough, but the damage can be even higher if you use the debuff of the other spells.

App is actually pretty strong too, of the Tornado and the Manabomb. Didn't know the arcane volley though. But Manabomb can come up to 1m and makes you immortal literally.

Huntress... :_D Gobu, i actually haven't played much with her except for Rollplay.

Sure EV2 is strong, but she is just a tiny bit stronger then most because it is so easy to gear for it. While the other can reach the same, if not higher if you specialise your playstyle towards special builds like AP/Crit or ATK/Crit.


[[39695,users]]

Sadly buff beam only stack 2 times only now :_D. But it is actually quit strong if you combo it with a boost aura. And if you use it near enemys you can even frost boost this and it gets quit hilarious.

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@dreamanime quote:

I kinda agree here with Spider to disagree with you Zimmer.

Monk does alot DPS on attack and Skills, the second skill can do constant spamable long reached AOE push backs from 300k-800k DPS! It's one of my fav builds for him Which is really strong you can clear waves easy with it. His first does alot damage too but i don't have the numbers for that one in my head + it has an instant kill if the enemy is frozen.

Squire can do the same his Flamesword does already alot aoe with a huge constant DPS in a huge range. But if you can also reach a few hundred thousand damage on Sword beams, or with slam you can come from 300k-2M damage, or even instant kill high health targets when they are frozen.

Just to be clear, I would have no problem about nerfing all Hero DPS. However, lets address Monk and Squire dps compared to Gunwitch or EV2 in relation to Molten Citadel Boss damage output.


Squire:

I have a flamethrower Squire, with 760 Ipwr, and 600% weapon, and Dragolitch. All gear is ability power (max upgraded) and hero crit damage, with 30% crit.

After a short dummy dps test on my Squire:

My sustained flamethrower dps is about 70k (dps range 50-100k depending on crits)

My sustained flamethrower dps under Dragolitch 180-200k (dps range 100-300k depending on crits)

Shockwave dps is always timed with Dragolitch as they have the same cooldown, non crit dps is 760k and crit dps is 860k. However this is once every 10s, so divide that number by 10, and you have the actual dps. Though regarding burst, it is still the squires strongest burst.

So finally regarding Squire dps against the Boss on Molten Citadel on NM4, it requires about 3-4 boulders in each wave on solo to kill end each phase.

So is Squire flamethrower dps comparable with Gunwitch and EV2? well maybe if they have utterly no AOE as thats the Squires strong point... but they actually have decent AOE, and obnoxiously high single target.

Therefore I do not believe Squire flamethrower dps requires a nerf.


Monk:

I have only ever tried Sky Dragon's Fury Monk dps, and though it has insanely high dps, it is hard to use, and requires a very long build up, It could be nerfed if EV2 and Gunwitch were nerfed, as its clearly superior to Squire flamethrower dps for example. 

If Monk dps with ability power has the dps you speak of, then I would agree it would need a nerf.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@dreamanime quote:

I kinda agree here with Spider to disagree with you Zimmer.

Monk does alot DPS on attack and Skills, the second skill can do constant spamable long reached AOE push backs from 300k-800k DPS! It's one of my fav builds for him Which is really strong you can clear waves easy with it. His first does alot damage too but i don't have the numbers for that one in my head + it has an instant kill if the enemy is frozen.

Squire can do the same his Flamesword does already alot aoe with a huge constant DPS in a huge range. But if you can also reach a few hundred thousand damage on Sword beams, or with slam you can come from 300k-2M damage, or even instant kill high health targets when they are frozen.

Just to be clear, I would have no problem about nerfing all Hero DPS. However, lets address Monk and Squire dps compared to Gunwitch or EV2 in relation to Molten Citadel Boss damage output.


Squire:

I have a flamethrower Squire, with 760 Ipwr, and 600% weapon, and Dragolitch. All gear is ability power (max upgraded) and hero crit damage, with 30% crit.

After a short dummy dps test on my Squire:

My sustained flamethrower dps is about 70k (dps range 50-100k depending on crits)

My sustained flamethrower dps under Dragolitch 180-200k (dps range 100-300k depending on crits)

Shockwave dps is always timed with Dragolitch as they have the same cooldown, non crit dps is 760k and crit dps is 860k. However this is once every 10s, so divide that number by 10, and you have the actual dps. Though regarding burst, it is still the squires strongest burst.

So finally regarding Squire dps against the Boss on Molten Citadel on NM4, it requires about 3-4 boulders in each wave on solo to kill end each phase.

So is Squire flamethrower dps comparable with Gunwitch and EV2? well maybe if they have utterly no AOE as thats the Squires strong point... but they actually have decent AOE, and obnoxiously high single target.

Therefore I do not believe Squire flamethrower dps requires a nerf.


Monk:

I have only ever tried Sky Dragon's Fury Monk dps, and though it has insanely high dps, it is hard to use, and requires a very long build up, It could be nerfed if EV2 and Gunwitch were nerfed, as its clearly superior to Squire flamethrower dps for example. 

If Monk dps with ability power has the dps you speak of, then I would agree it would need a nerf.

Ehh, eeehhh :D

I think we talked abit beside each other, hehe. Gobu. What i ment is simple this. EV2 is not overly strong for what her task is, she is fine compared to the other Heroes. I don't even mean it specific to the boss of Molten Citadel too, more general. And I actualy didn't mean that these heroes need a Nerf at all, what i mean is they fit well already together. Nerfing is not what i was about with my post.

I think a Nerf (or Power adjustment) should not happen much (except it is absolut rightous gamebreaking, like a bug) until the monster revamp. What use is to adjust the power back and forth back and forth when the strength of monster and their technique will be changed anyway. It would be a waste of time. At last thats how i see it for the current stage.

Sure they could reduce the burst of the EV2 beam, but would that change anything? Even if you half it's damage or reduce it by 3/4 the outcome would be the same. You can do this map still with it. If you want to reduce any DPS power so you can't finish the boss of the map before monsters destroyed all barricades, then all damage for nearly all heroes need to be lowered BY ALOT.

It would be way better for the devs, with the monster revamp, to introduce certain monster cluster or monsters, which specialise on stuff, like one who only attacks the core. With that you would not have the freedom of actually just building the walls, it would require you to build at last some defenses against this one to cc or kill him until you killed the boss with your dps.

Well that's my thought on it =).

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@dreamanime quote:

Sure they could reduce the burst of the EV2 beam, but would that change anything? Even if you half it's damage or reduce it by 3/4 the outcome would be the same. You can do this map still with it. If you want to reduce any DPS power so you can't finish the boss of the map before monsters destroyed all barricades, then all damage for nearly all heroes need to be lowered BY ALOT.

@dreamanime quote:

I think you would need to actually attempt to clear this map with just barricades on each hero first, I am pretty sure its 10x harder to do on a Squire, if not close to impossible. Each wave would take 4+ times as long, meaning destroyed barricades, massive issues with dps on the boss+fire ogres.

Nerfing EV2's beam would make the difference between squire/apprentice/monk a little closer and balanced.


@dreamanime quote:

It would be way better for the devs, with the monster revamp, to introduce certain monster cluster or monsters, which specialise on stuff, like one who only attacks the core. With that you would not have the freedom of actually just building the walls, it would require you to build at last some defenses against this one to cc or kill him until you damage the boss with your CC.

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all, ignoring the the vast majority of the "Tower Defense" part should garantee your failure in completing the map. Like wise, if you go afk on every wave in any of the new incursions, you are guaranteed a failure due to the "action" aspect of the game, cleansing, gold collection and boulder throwing, and thats assuming you are completely out gearing the content.


In closing, I do think balance can be achieved before the revamp, as adding a monster revamp to an array of classes that are balanced is easier to further balance thereafter then adding a revamp to an array of utterly imbalanced classes. I honestly think it is a cop out to say otherwise.

Again though just my thoughts on this issue :)



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@Zimmermann quote:

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all...

B... but!! But you know. Heroes are just towers too :d just mobile special high damaging towers. That's how i see it. There are tons of Tower defense games out there where the defense are actually the heroes. Mostly stationary, but some mobile too and thats a chore gameplay.

For me there is not much of a difference between a direct command Ramster and a EV2 which spreaded her legs slightly apart and then emits a beam of heat.

Heroes are the type of towers which can turn the tides of an battle, they need to be strong in my eyes :d, at last as strong as colossus bro.

Edit:

I don't really think it's a cop-out (needed to google this XD) and i don't say after the Revamp. The adjustments need to come with it obviously =). Not one first and then the other, but both go hand in hand because both are balancing. The one can't be tuned without the other.

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@dreamanime quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all...

B... but!! But you know. Heroes are just towers too :d just mobile special high damaging towers. That's how i see it. There are tons of Tower defense games out there where the defense are actually the heroes. Mostly stationary, but some mobile too and thats a chore gameplay.

For me there is not much of a difference between a direct command Ramster and a EV2 which spreaded her legs slightly apart and then emits a beam of heat.

Heroes are the type of towers which can turn the tides of an battle, they need to be strong in my eyes :d, at last as strong as colossus bro.

Then they need to introduce the wall hero, his skills are becoming a wall that can move... oh wait did someone shout Hero Health stacking squire?

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@Zimmermann quote:


@dreamanime quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all...

B... but!! But you know. Heroes are just towers too :d just mobile special high damaging towers. That's how i see it. There are tons of Tower defense games out there where the defense are actually the heroes. Mostly stationary, but some mobile too and thats a chore gameplay.

For me there is not much of a difference between a direct command Ramster and a EV2 which spreaded her legs slightly apart and then emits a beam of heat.

Heroes are the type of towers which can turn the tides of an battle, they need to be strong in my eyes :d, at last as strong as colossus bro.

Then they need to introduce the wall hero, his skills are becoming a wall that can move... oh wait did someone shout Hero Health stacking squire?

See it's in already :D. Though all these muscles and tight butts make the Goblins sometimes go crazy and then they run randomly over the battlefield till they explode.

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@dreamanime quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all....

For me there is not much of a difference between a direct command Ramster and a EV2 which spreaded her legs slightly apart and then emits a beam of heat.


Kee hee - Maybe it's cuz I'm a guy. But, that sounded kinda dirty. Like an innuendo. Made me chuckle.

[[150185,users]] - didn't you say somewhere before that you have not played DD1? Or was that someone else I am thinking of? DD1 has some crazy hero dmg output, too.

Personally, I'd prefer to wait until the Monster revamp before any more major nerfs happen to heroes. If more unintended super powered attacks happen before that time, then, sure, nerf them back to their intended power outputs. Like I said before, I respectfully disagree. It seems many of us still enjoy the game overall while we wait for the final end product, including you: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/137451/going-in-the-right-direction%7D%7D

;-) cheers!

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@SpiderDanX quote:


@dreamanime quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

It should simply not be possible to complete a map ignoring half the game mechanics, this is a Tower Defense action game after all....

For me there is not much of a difference between a direct command Ramster and a EV2 which spreaded her legs slightly apart and then emits a beam of heat.


Kee hee - Maybe it's cuz I'm a guy. But, that sounded kinda dirty. Like an innuendo. Made me chuckle.

Zimmermann - didn't you say somewhere before that you have not played DD1? Or was that someone else I am thinking of? DD1 has some crazy hero dmg output, too.

Personally, I'd prefer to wait until the Monster revamp before any more major nerfs happen to heroes. If more unintended super powered attacks happen before that time, then, sure, nerf them back to their intended power outputs. Like I said before, I respectfully disagree. It seems many of us still enjoy the game overall while we wait for the final end product, including you: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/137451/going-in-the-right-direction%7D%7D

;-) cheers!

You are correct I never played DD1, but I am nevertheless strongly against overly strong hero dps, for me hero dps should simply be something to handle bosses/ogres. 

I would love to see hp pools go up across the board for all monsters, bosses going up too, and heroes having only strong single target cooldown reliant damage, ultimately forcing them into a role of boss killing and select monster killing. In other words, cooldowns in the realm of 30s to 1 min, that were almost mandatory at taking out bosses. Heroes with CC and strong single target Cool Down reliant damage would be the perfect situation for me, but I am aware that will never happen :)
I think the reason for my position on this issue is, due to the fact I like the "Tower Defense" in "Tower Defense action" games rather then the "action", which I understand is no more relevant then the other.

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