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CDT Update 3 - Tinkers Lab Progression

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@EagleOne quote:

Alright, I would like to see your NMHC build starting on wave 28 (32). I have 6k hours on record (fml) but the 7k mark has been not passed. Well I don't lab. Also comparing DD with an MMO is somewhat out of place just alone by the content. MMOs are designed to be played for years, DD has roundabout 30(?) maps.


There's different types of people playing this game, and I know for a fact I'm not the only meta-f*g in this community. If you enjoy different things you probably won't be hardcore farming loot all the time. The fact that you haven't broken 7k in 6k hours does not mean that it has to take that long. I like trying to improve my characters as efficiently as possible, while you spend a lot of your time playing random maps in public games. It's just different aspects of the game we enjoy. This doesn't mean that if you haven't gotten certain stats after that ammount of playing, no rewards should be there for people who do reach it. In fact, people who don't care about optimizing their characters enough to gain access to better chickens compared to insane chickens, probably shouldn't care about that slight upgrade anyway. There's probably better slots to upgrade first, if they even care about upgrading at all.

I didn't only compare it to MMO's, for example; Monster hunter is a game that has certain items locked behind a lot higher requirements. Some of the old monster hunter games are practically single player games unless you know people nearby that play it (that doesn't happen very often). Meaning that not only is there more to do to get those final armor sets and weapons, you're also going to have to do every single step of the way yourself.

The reason why a lot of the games I compared are MMO's is because we're looking at the loot aspect of this game, loot-wise DD is more like an MMO than any other genre. I mean, if we're going to compare it by the number of maps when talking about loot we might as well compare it to tekken. This game clearly has enough to be played for a long amount of time, as a lot of people have done.


@EagleOne quote:

So, why would you need 8% more damage in first place if they would be not noticeable? You are right, they won't be noticeable because the Chicken is already the strongest pet, an overpowered pet which will wreck everything in this game. Hence a buff is just something for stat *****.

I never asked for a nightmare stat buff. As I said in my second post in this thread (the first sirious one), I don't want the nightmare stat buff. I fully agree on the fact that we don't need or want better chickens. I want there to be a difference in nightmare vs insane rewards. I don't think the 150^ 300 stat cap is too much of a difference, and I don't think the 175^ 400 stat cap is too small of a difference. Either of those, or different solutions would make me happy.


@EagleOne quote:

It's funny that you are talking about jagged progression beyond the base game while the first thing you want to change is the last pet people have to grind for. We are always talking exclusively about the feeling and wishes of high-end players. About the need to get better and better, higher and higher. At some point a game doesn't offer further progression because you have finished it.

You have played 2k hours by your own, please tell me you were not playing 2000 hours just to increase your stats/dps. I understand that people enjoy games on different ways BUT seriously we have to stop introducing higher and higher stats, better and better items. I really have no idea why we have to do this to DD1 while DDE exactly offers such a (broken) system.


I did not start this thread, this is not "the first thing I want to change". However, since Acen started a discussion on this, looking at this part of the game, I think there should be a change. 

Yes, I pretty much spent 1700 hours of those 2k farming loot, ofcourse most of it being lab assault, like you said, different people enjoy different things in this game and I'm deffinitly not the only one running lab all the time, and I'm pretty sure no one does that because they enjoy the map so much.

Just because DDE was a bad game, does not mean a smooth progression curve is what makes it bad. In fact, pretty much any successful (and non successful) loot based games have a smooth progression curve, or atleast strive to have one.


@EagleOne quote:

You realized that the game is 5 years old? Why would you want to change the game so massively which worked for such a long time just fine? I still don't know about what gap people are talking about. However, the progression you are looking for will take years to be implemented and then... there is still Lab Assault. People heave requested that more ult/+/++ have to drop from survival to make it more attractive, while we could just stop rewarding them on Lab. To say it with your words, we have to start somewhere.

BTW you have exactly mentioned the reason why people hack... they don't want to invest much time. You think they will invest the time in legit gear which is able to handle TLNMHC just to get the newest best pet to be as cool as others? Exactly this encourages hackers.


People have been asking for changes for years, the fact that trendy's been putting it off is no excuse that it should never happen. If people didn't want things to change, DDE would've never been released (maybe for the bettersquire_small.png). If people didn't want things to change, then why would the CDT even be here? And again, this thread is not about lab. But I aggree, you have to start somewhere. And I didn't say that if lab assault was their place to start I would've been here defending lab assault to not change. Again, I realise lab is a problem and there's more too it than chickens but there's no point in never doing anything because there's more to fix.


@EagleOne quote:

One time you are saying people hack to be as cool as others, to use the same good items, and now you are saying they hack because the hard way does not offer an upgrade? Seems very odd. Why would you hack if you have the option between an relatively easy way or the hard way which is behind grind wall?


Even though there could be multiple reasons for people to cheat, I didn't say that. What I ment is, by never having rewards for things that are hard to do you are demotivating a lot of people like me to play the game any longer. Some people don't care, but some people will feel done with the game as soon as they have access to anything usefull. Compared to the stats you CAN get and the ammount of time you CAN spend upgrading your heroes, the stats that are actually usefull in a practical way and the time you need to achieve that are way too small in my opinion. Some people don't care, and enjoy playing the game just for the sake of playing, but others feel like there's nothing left to do since they already have what they need. The players who just continue playing the game for the sake of playing enjoy different things and probably won't and shouldn't care about the slight difference in chickens anyway.

I don't think that catering your game around potential cheaters is a better option than catering your loot-based games around people who like loot.


@EagleOne quote:

Insane chickens have already great chances to spawn very good. I assume that's the whole point behind this discussion to nerf insane and buff nm chickens. i don't know how greater chances should look like. More chickens as rewards could be an option. If so not on last wave but how about adding a chicken on NM wave 30 OR better add another special pet to NM wave 30, probably a fairy or a new one. That way you get something for "your" time.



If nightmare would be a somewhat significantly better source for other pets like fairies, that would make me just as happy.


As for the "your" and the other pokes at trying to make this a personal thing by trying to imply that I shouldn't care about this because I probably don't even play tinkerers lab, that's exactly why this matters to me. Tinkerers nightmare is a waste of time, a difference in loot between nightmare and insane will help make it less of a waste of time. That's what I care about, if I'm spending my time in a valuable manner. You're probably gonna mock me for that, but again, different people enjoy different things in games.

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I'm too tired to argue about that all, to quote you at the places where you said you'd like a buff of NM chickens, a new progression ladder and so on. Everything has been said from my side anyways. Just two more things;

A: If TLNMHC Chicken stays as is; why would you run it in first place assuming you have your 37k already?
B: If TLInsHC Chicken gets nerfed; why adding a barrier for others to reach your mentioned meta-status?

The difference does not matter at all, you had the comfort to farm meta chickens on Insane, now you've got them you want others to not get the same chickens as easy as you got them. Exactly this is the major concern a lot of people are throwing in when we talk about Lab Assault and while I always said it's an invalid argument for Lab, here at Chicken it is. You only have this map to get chickens.

Damn, three things;

C: Meta-Player or not, why has everything you do in the game to be rewarding rather than playing for fun, for the challenge itself? You cannot create such a reward system like you want... and what does mean rewarding? If you get super cool drops on every map, you choose the easiest to run -> harder maps are not rewarding anymore for the effort they take. If these hard maps gets buffed -> all previous content is worthless to run, is not rewarding. A game will be always cut down to the most rewarding map with as less effort as possible... for DD it is Lab Assault. Do you see that we are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea? Really there is one point, when we cannot progress anymore, when we have to run a game because it's fun rather than trying to become the best player. 1700 hours on record and you are claiming the game gets boring because you cannot progress anymore? Hell, I hope so that's a ****ton of time you get out of the game.

And now seriously; Is Bay, Ember or Moonbase more rewarding than Tinkerer's Lab, although these maps drops way more Trans+? Since the RNG adjustment the CDT performed, I never have seen so many and worse low-up Trans/Sups/Ults. So TL is loot-wise in line with others.

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I'm more interested towards balancing the reward loot drops for NMHC when compared to INHC.
It's broken on NMHC. I don't expect a 89^ Capping Myth Blaster Rifle 4/5 times after spending time and effort on that map. It just outright beats the purpose of having to farm NMHC when the rewards are thrash 95% of the time compared to INHC.

I'd also agree with EagleOne that there is really no point in buffing the Chicken, its already more than OP at 200^ making it 250^ would discourage players to use any other DPS pet. Not like most people use other pets either way. Everyone has the same stuff which sucks becasue there is so much variety in the items in the game but having a select few OP items for everyone really isn't fun. Sorry for digressing, but the point had to be made.

I know this discussion isn't about Lab Assault, but the progression thingy is same on INHC vs NMHC.
While both are relatively easier, the NMHC stat rollover is just pure disappointment and most would just rather do the runs on INHC and get consistently good rewards vs once in a moonlight on NMHC.

In conclusion, stat rollover on both the Tinkerer's Campaign and Lab Assault should be fixed/tweaked/improved. And if the rewards get too OP becasue of the fixes, then maybe think of increasing the actual difficulty of NMHC to make it more challenging but worthwhile to get the rewards.

Even after these many years, Akatiti is still the preferred map for people(subjective opinion) to farm for top of the line weapons(subjective opinion). And comparing Tinkerer's thrashy NMHC rewards with Akatiti, there is an obvious Risk vs Reward in Akatiti for doing NMHC runs vs INHC runs. Its a testament on how good that map is, both difficulty and reward-wise. I mean for someone with 5-6k stats any map is a no-brainer but the context in which I was mentioning the "difficulties/risks" was with an Average Joe having 1 - 1.5k stats and not so good DPS heroes either.

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It isnt stat rollover that causes poor NM blasters.  It is they way it was setup in the code.  They are not getting the proper multipliers applied. They are really nice when they do.  :)

The buff to the chicken would be to provide an incentive to run it.  I realize that players could just run it for fun or just for the challenge of it, but that is not enough for every player.  Some want to feel rewarded for their efforts or at least have a chance at being rewarded above what they can get on an easier difficulty.

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Well I mean if the majority of the community is adamant on Mega Chicken buff then I don't really have a say if I'm in the minority! Its the community decision afterall. :D
But they don't really need a buff to be honest. If anything the other pets like Hamsters, Goblin Cupids, Shroomites, Djinnlets, etc. could use some love.
Speaking of Goblin Cupids, can it be made that a higher scaled/quality Goblin Cupid drops from ToL? Currently the only way to get one is SoL, if I'm not mistaken.

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@EagleOne quote:

I'm too tired to argue about that all, to quote you at the places where you said you'd like a buff of NM chickens, a new progression ladder and so on. Everything has been said from my side anyways. Just two more things;


The places where I was talking about better nightmare chickens I was talking about better chickens compared to the ones you got earlier from insane, not compared to nightmare chickens as they are now. I never stated I want nightmare chickens to have better stats than they have now in the live game. Sorry if I wasn't being clear on that. Other than that I won't steal the final word from you unless I missread those questions as rhetorical and you actually want a response.

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The additional pet at wave 30 sounds like a much better incentive, as mega chickens are strong enough as it is, and/or extra chickens at the very end of NM to increase efficiency. Personally I'm not fond of the insane nerf, as TL INHC survival is still harder to farm than NMHC seahorses, and some people don't have the computers to run TL very well (which is made even worse on NM).

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