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ddace

CDT Update 3 - Tinkers Lab Progression

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Let me start off saying that this thread is NOT about lab assault.  We already understand there are many who would love to squash it as it is and plenty who would keep it.  So please keep focus on Tinkers Lab Campaign and Survival here.  Thanks!!

There are a couple of things off about Tinkers Lab which seems to skew progression for the map and doesnt provide much incentive for playing through Nightmare currently.  I will start off the conversation with ideas of how we might could change this but please feel free to add your own. Perhaps we can find something that everyone would be happy with.  If not, we can easily keep it as it is.  

Campaign 

Blasters are far worse on NM than insane which can be very frustrating.  Stats are about 80 points lower on NM than Insane.  I suggest we just bump NM blaster rewards to equal insane.  You could possibly bump stats a tiny bit but would like to keep this simple and straight forward.

Survival - The Mega Chicken

I know many love their megas so I know this one might ruffle some feathers, (see what I did there?), but I figured we could have the discussion anyways.  Currently Insane megas are just as good as NM.  With Blasters and Mega Chickens both being equal or better on Insane than NM, many players do not have a reason to tackle Tinks Survival on NM.  So here is what I wanted to throw out there for your discussion:

Slightly nerf the Insane Megas - (I know many just had their knee jerk reaction to the word "nerf" but please keep reading)  

  • Reduce Insane Mega Chicken stats to the 300 range instead of 500s
  • Reduce Insane Mega Chicken ups to 150.  With this change you would still see 33-34k megas with 300 in stats.  

Slighly buff NM Megas (I know they are already pretty powerful but please keep reading)

  • Increase NM Mega Chicken ups to 250.  This would have a mega max around 40k
  • Bump level requirement to 90
  • Keep stats the same

NOTE:  Any previously farmed chickens would remain as they are. 

I would hope with changes like this or with your suggestions we might find a way to improve upon the progression that is currently there with Tinks but again it is easy to keep it as is too.  Thanks.

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Why nerf the insane ones if you buff the NM ones ? Don't people just farm stuff only for slight power increase in this game already ? Wouldn't it be a good enough reason for them to farm nightmare ?

Also about the slight nerf, removing 50ups out of 200 doesn't seem very "slight" to me, and you're already capping their stats to 300ups. Quite brutal IMO.

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On a more sirious note; Although the buff option sounds really cool as it would provide an incentive to go farm new chickens (it's been ages since a new, good DPS pet to farm was introduced), I feel like it is kind of out of place to buff something that's already as powerful as it is. Therefor nerfing the insane versions of it seems like a more appropriate solution in my opinion. I don't think the values proposed are too extreme. 

As for the blasters, I see no problem in buffing the nightmare versions of those beyond insane stats at all.

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@mkjo quote:

LIke

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Question. What happens to our existing chickens?

99% sure they they will stay un-changed and become unique cool chickens that can't be dropped anymore :)

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@mkjo quote:

LIke

Like

Like


Question. What happens to our existing chickens?

Good point.  Forgot to add that.  They would stay unchanged.

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I don't have any problem with this.  A map on Insane should never drop better rewards than on Nightmare, it defeats the entire purpose of having a harder difficulty.  (Unless there were discussions about going the D3 route where it's scaled to level, and then difficulties just increase the odds of getting something good.  I know it would never happen here, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it <.< >.>)

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Survival

If chickens from NM are as good as from Insane then I wouldn't touch anything for several reasons...


A: Chicken is already THE PET of the pets when it comes to multi-target damage.


B: Although chicken wouldn't be my first choice to fight Phoenix but the map has been added to be a challenge for high-end players. It's just an increase of 8% we are talking about but it would make said challenge again a bit easier. Despite the fact that we would make a superior chicken even more superior.


C: It is great currently that people are able to get high-end chickens from Insane. They are not forced to farm insanely high stats just to be able to beat survival on NM (to me this encourage hacking as in it is the "easier" way than getting gear on a legit way). In current state the high-end players have the option to choose either "the easy" way or the challenging. NMHC is very challenging as I farmed it a lot but Insane can be done with mediocre heroes.


D: I doubt that a lot of people are able to start at such high waves like they did before on Insane... The maximal survival starting wave has been increased because people didn't wanted to spent so much time farming a pet (although it was just 25-35 minutes for a high-end pet -.-) However, the result would be actual much longer runs. (another way to encourage hacking just to start at a max possible wave).


E: Instead of changing Chickens I would prefer to add higher quality version of existing older pets on rare occasions e.g.
- a less rare Supreme Monkey
- new rare Transcendent Cats
- new rare Supreme/Ultimate Shroomites and Donkeys (no Seahorses they are far superior to called pets)
- new rare Supreme/Ultimate Cupid, Unicorn, Djinnlet
None of them should outperform Seahorse/Chicken since they are very strong but a smaller gap between them would be nice and a step forward for a higher distinction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for as effective, strong and common pets as Seahorse/Chicken but having an option of an unique rare look for a damage penalty of 10%, 20% or 30% is a great choice. (Yay, lol derailed... :( )


Campaign

Campaign is another story, it's a relative quick run, compared to survival a cakewalk on Nightmare. Rewards should be at least as good as on Insane but here I also would agree to better NM rewards than from Insane. Insane rewards would require a little nerf though because the possibilities are already outstanding on Insane.

So either make NM = Insane or NM = current Insane and new Insane gets a little nerf.



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I agree it is pretty much "The pet" and buffing it more seems like it makes it worse.  However I didnt know if players would rather keep it as is if there is no incentive added to play through NM.  Again, just my thought on the progression.  Also, I dont know if they would accept a plain nerf to insane.  So was trying to provide some incentive to make it easier to accept a nerf basically.  :)

As far adding higher quality version of older pets, I like the idea.  Although I dont think adding them to Tinks would be good because then players may not have a reason to farm them if the pets arent as good.  We already see that with some maps.  


Personal note:  Why leave out the seahorse? That hurts me deeply.  :)  i know an really nice ult would shame a chicken.  That's why I want one.

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@EagleOne quote:

- new rare Transcendent Cats


Trans cats already exist. They're just obnoxiously rare (ult seahorse type rare). I happen to have one.

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@ddace quote:

However I didnt know if players would rather keep it as is if there is no incentive added to play through NM.  Again, just my thought on the progression.  Also, I dont know if they would accept a plain nerf to insane.  So was trying to provide some incentive to make it easier to accept a nerf basically.  :)

Yay, I get the point. Aside from being a challenge on NM there are no benefits but I believe it is great to have the option doing Insane or NM for the same quality of Chicken. It makes it easier for mediocre builders to build up a decent DPS hero beating bosses.


@ddace quote:

As far adding higher quality version of older pets, I like the idea.  Although I dont think adding them to Tinks would be good because then players may not have a reason to farm them if the pets arent as good.  We already see that with some maps.

Yay, that wasn't meant to be added to Tinks but to show up that there are other pets which are left behind. Take it as a new suggestion :) I wouldn't mind loosing some damage potential to be somewhat unique compared to the regular chicken-equipped DPS heroes but currently you are loosing almost all of your damage when not using Seahorse/Dragon/Chicken.


@ddace quote:

Personal note:  Why leave out the seahorse? That hurts me deeply.  :)  i know an really nice ult would shame a chicken.  That's why I want one.

I would like better too BUT the Seahorse is pretty strong already. In fact it is a real competitor to the Chicken already considering single-target damage... take a look here -> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=197161711 (High Striker)

Also it wouldn't make any sense to "buff" other pets which are far inferior currently when you are buffing one which already outclassed them by a lot :)


@Caimen0 quote:

Trans cats already exist. They're just obnoxiously rare (ult seahorse type rare). I happen to have one.

I wasn't sure, never have seen one except obvious hacked. Well make it less rarer then :)


______

The actual question is; Will they are be used if they are still worse but closer to current best. As mentioned I wouldn't mind a lose of some damage for an "unique" look.

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Prior to the update, there were a couple cool things to farm on TL NM survival that made it feel very unique:

  • Battle droids
  • Cardboard tubes

But now droids can be farmed on Moonbase and tubes can be farmed on Embermount, which actually makes farming TL NM survival a bit less exciting. 

I'm probably going to do it anyway because I want to keep improving my build, and because I'm trying to start a battle droid collection, but I think it would have been cool if Moonbase gave some other pet at wave 25. 

By the way, I can't tell if MB and TL give the same quality of battle droid without farming a bunch of them, so I'm not sure where I should farm them anymore.  So far my TL battle droids are still much better, but I don't know if that's just because of the RNG.

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EagleOne quote:

"failed quote, was on my phone :/"


I think the argument of good chickens needing to be available to mediocre characters is slightly flawed. Most of the game is already rediculously easy. In my eyes NM should definitely have better rewards compared to lower difficulty. 99% of anything farmable is already available to low-statted players. I feel like there could definitely be a little more attention to actually rewarding the hundreds and thousands of hours people spent to upgrade their characters and actually allow better characters to actually be useful.


You can't never have a rewarding challenge in a game because it would motivate people to cheat. We might as well remove all difficulty settings and add nightmare rewards to easy mode at that point. I think the fact that it's completely unclear to new players how to get their first pieces of mythical and transcendent armor, or the fact that it takes a long time to collect good ult or better sets is a bigger bump in the road and reason to start cheating than the fact that the chickens they farm might deal slightly less damage.


Ofcourse I love the idea of buffing other pets. Some competition for the chicken that isn't as rare as they are now is more than welcome in my eyes.

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In general I am against nerfing anything that was previously available to players, especially if it was such an integral part of the game as a chicken is. I feel like it is unfair to any player who only starts to play after the nerf happened and is now unable to farm those items as they once were, making them unique and valuable. I like anything that exists in the game to be farm-able.  However, in this case it would not make good chickens entirely inaccessible as you can just get better and farm them on NM. Its still a bit unfair on new players as they never got the chance to farm easy ones on insane, especially if you nerf the insane ones. Therefore I am against nerfing the insane chickens. As to buffing the NM chickens, I think this is not a bad idea, although it is unfortunate that the chicken is already the top pet in a lot of ways. But tinkers lab is one of the hardest maps to play on survival anyway, so a suitable reward is not entirely out of place.


tl;dr:

don't nerf insane chicks, buff NM ones if you must.

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@ThePoet424 quote:

In general I am against nerfing anything that was previously available to players, especially if it was such an integral part of the game as a chicken is. I feel like it is unfair to any player who only starts to play after the nerf happened and is now unable to farm those items as they once were, making them unique and valuable. I like anything that exists in the game to be farm-able.  However, in this case it would not make good chickens entirely inaccessible as you can just get better and farm them on NM. Its still a bit unfair on new players as they never got the chance to farm easy ones on insane, especially if you nerf the insane ones. Therefore I am against nerfing the insane chickens. As to buffing the NM chickens, I think this is not a bad idea, although it is unfortunate that the chicken is already the top pet in a lot of ways. But tinkers lab is one of the hardest maps to play on survival anyway, so a suitable reward is not entirely out of place.


tl;dr:

don't nerf insane chicks, buff NM ones if you must.

I think new players aren't going to be picky enough to have a problem with having 34k chickens instead of a 37k ones. They're still growing after all, and will be able to get the better ones later. The pet itself would still accessable, they probably won't even notice the 8% ish difference in pet damage, resulting in maybe 5% damage difference overall.

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Terrible idea I can not support. We need ult++ chickens, not just ult chickens. 


On a more serious note, I disagree with the nerf on insane. To me, it's too much of a nerf. I think it would be more balanced to have insane have 175^ and 400 stats. With 300 stats and only 150^, it would seem quite a bit too weak compared to what we have now and seems unfair to high end new players. I support the NM chicken with what you said.

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@bergzwerver quote:


@ThePoet424 quote:

In general I am against nerfing anything that was previously available to players, especially if it was such an integral part of the game as a chicken is. I feel like it is unfair to any player who only starts to play after the nerf happened and is now unable to farm those items as they once were, making them unique and valuable. I like anything that exists in the game to be farm-able.  However, in this case it would not make good chickens entirely inaccessible as you can just get better and farm them on NM. Its still a bit unfair on new players as they never got the chance to farm easy ones on insane, especially if you nerf the insane ones. Therefore I am against nerfing the insane chickens. As to buffing the NM chickens, I think this is not a bad idea, although it is unfortunate that the chicken is already the top pet in a lot of ways. But tinkers lab is one of the hardest maps to play on survival anyway, so a suitable reward is not entirely out of place.


tl;dr:

don't nerf insane chicks, buff NM ones if you must.

I think new players aren't going to be picky enough to have a problem with having 34k chickens instead of a 37k ones. They're still growing after all, and will be able to get the better ones later. The pet itself would still accessable, they probably won't even notice the 8% ish difference in pet damage, resulting in maybe 5% damage difference overall.

You're quite right, I was making a general point about nerfing items. As I tried to explain it does not totally apply here as there would be better ones available from NM. I stand by my point though, please don't nerf insane chickens.

Also, once you get to high stats its all about 5% differences in stats. That's why we keep on farming.

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@bergzwerver quote:

I think the argument of good chickens needing to be available to mediocre characters is slightly flawed. Most of the game is already rediculously easy. In my eyes NM should definitely have better rewards compared to lower difficulty. 99% of anything farmable is already available to low-statted players. I feel like there could definitely be a little more attention to actually rewarding the hundreds and thousands of hours people spent to upgrade their characters and actually allow better characters to actually be useful.

TLNMHC survival is even challenging for 6ks... makes to get a good chicken almost impossible for a huge chunk of the community. Despite the fact the community wanted shorter survival runs, and now you are breaking it with your butt while turning around. I don't see any legit way to start TLNMHC on wave 32 (not even on 28) unless you gas the spawns. As high-end player you definitely think that InsaneHC feels too easy for such an high-end item (hence my disagreement to shorten survival run time), but why would you like to change this single item when Lab Assault needs even less effort for even better rewards? That's something completely odd to like a nerf of a map which is already harder than the one everyone runs day in and day out.

Considering that TLNMHC survival requires such high stats across a couple of heroes and you are liking a nerf of Insane, feels like you want to keep the gap between High-End and Mediocre players. The game doesn't have to follow a perfect logic in every aspect. Currently High-End players have the option, isn't it great?



@bergzwerver quote:You can't never have a rewarding challenge in a game because it would motivate people to cheat. We might as well remove all difficulty settings and add nightmare rewards to easy mode at that point. I think the fact that it's completely unclear to new players how to get their first pieces of mythical and transcendent armor, or the fact that it takes a long time to collect good ult or better sets is a bigger bump in the road and reason to start cheating than the fact that the chickens they farm might deal slightly less damage.

You don't think your logic is over the top? However we do have the scenario pretty much, no? Lab Assault? I don't think people cheat because they want ultimate gear, I believe they are cheating because they get frustrated by loosing over and over again trying to get an item high-end (here chicken). In reality it is most likely a mix of both. Anyways having very good rewards behind a grind wall of several thousands hours (talking about 7k+ to make TLNMHC "doable") is a big "No No".

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Please don't buff them, I can't handle another person asking "Let's play tink!" and I have to respond "I haven't got it :(" so they leave (Forever alone :'( ) which is very frustrating when you need those team members to beat that dreaded Kraken on nmhc.

If you nerf them a little bit so they are less desirable [Insert heart attack here] then maybe people will look for other weapons, thus diversifying the dd1 weapons used.


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Camp:

Leave insanes as they are, give Nm ones a ~10% higher ups/stats over insane.

Surv:

Nerf insane ones to your said 150

But DON`T buff Nm ones, they are already the most common and stronges Dmg pet, they don´t need a buff! (exc ult horsies ofc...)

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@EagleOne quote:


@bergzwerver quote:

I think the argument of good chickens needing to be available to mediocre characters is slightly flawed. Most of the game is already rediculously easy. In my eyes NM should definitely have better rewards compared to lower difficulty. 99% of anything farmable is already available to low-statted players. I feel like there could definitely be a little more attention to actually rewarding the hundreds and thousands of hours people spent to upgrade their characters and actually allow better characters to actually be useful.

TLNMHC survival is even challenging for 6ks... makes to get a good chicken almost impossible for a huge chunk of the community. Despite the fact the community wanted shorter survival runs, and now you are breaking it with your butt while turning around. I don't see any legit way to start TLNMHC on wave 32 (not even on 28) unless you gas the spawns. As high-end player you definitely think that InsaneHC feels too easy for such an high-end item (hence my disagreement to shorten survival run time), but why would you like to change this single item when Lab Assault needs even less effort for even better rewards? That's something completely odd to like a nerf of a map which is already harder than the one everyone runs day in and day out.

Considering that TLNMHC survival requires such high stats across a couple of heroes and you are liking a nerf of Insane, feels like you want to keep the gap between High-End and Mediocre players. The game doesn't have to follow a perfect logic in every aspect. Currently High-End players have the option, isn't it great?



@bergzwerver quote:You can't never have a rewarding challenge in a game because it would motivate people to cheat. We might as well remove all difficulty settings and add nightmare rewards to easy mode at that point. I think the fact that it's completely unclear to new players how to get their first pieces of mythical and transcendent armor, or the fact that it takes a long time to collect good ult or better sets is a bigger bump in the road and reason to start cheating than the fact that the chickens they farm might deal slightly less damage.

You don't think your logic is over the top? However we do have the scenario pretty much, no? Lab Assault? I don't think people cheat because they want ultimate gear, I believe they are cheating because they get frustrated by loosing over and over again trying to get an item high-end (here chicken). In reality it is most likely a mix of both. Anyways having very good rewards behind a grind wall of several thousands hours (talking about 7k+ to make TLNMHC "doable") is a big "No No".

I see your point, but I don't think 7k stats is all that much of an extreme requirement for something like this. Especially if you look at some other loot based games where sometimes even pretty much completing an entire MMO, which takes conciderably longer still unlocks you content that will help you significantly. in some games you're still unlocking new enemies to fight with new rewards after thousands of hours of gameplay. In some MMO's, you litterally double the rate at which you can gain currency for completing a large portion of the game which would also take thousands of hours in some cases. Heck, in WoW some items will litterally take you month after month after month to get because of daily/weekly lockouts, and those items offer a much greater advantage than this chicken change would. 


Compare this to getting 7k stats to gain 8% damage on your pet that's already best in slot, and guess what, you will probably never even need that 8% extra damage on your pet. In fact, that 8% damage will probably never even help you in a significant way. You might save 3 seconds of your life at a boss at some point or whatever. 


Ofcourse I'm not saying DD should be like every other game out there but the loot progression is really jagged in this game right now. After you get through the core game it turns to complete and utter unguided chaos. As someone who's really into RPG's especially for the progression, the fact that so soon in a game where I want to spend so much time on you get to a point where you can still improve your characters by a lot, but no where along the way will you ever unlock something "usefull" makes me a bit sad. It's come to the point where stats are pretty much cosmetics. I realise lab assault is deffinitly a big part of that problem but it was clearly stated that this post wasn't supposed to be about lab assault. Obviously there's more too it than just chickens, but you have to start somewhere. 


In my opinion actually having a practical use in increasing your stats, instead of just the ability to play hard maps that don't actually reward you for your time, is something that I would really want to be in one of my favourite games. Nerfing insane chickens would be a good start to realise something like this. After more changes, maybe we'll get to the point where everytime you improve your characters a certain ammount, you unlock the ability to gain access to some new, cool and better items/content. This would be contrary to motivating people to cheat, as they frequently unlock new and usefull things, instead of there being a giant gap of nothingness where you basically just want those ult items so you can be as cool as all the other people running around, but you don't want to invest the time because it just takes so long and nothing interesting happpens in the mean time. 


This would also mean that this "gap between high-end and mediocre" wouldn't be as much of a gap, it would be a smooth path that you walk. And yes, there's always going to people who are rich, and people who are not. That's not a problem. That's litterally unavoidable in a game where loot plays such a major role.


Furthermore, leaving the chickens as is motivates people to cheat as much as it demotivates people to play who are looking for a smooth progression curve. 


As a lot of you seem to dissagree with the nerf so I don't expect it to be a thing anytime soon. But what would you guys think of increasing the amount of chickens you get, or increasing the chances for getting better chickens on nightmare? This way the same chickens would still be available to people who can't handle nightmare tink. This would make those long nightmare tink runs feel like less of a waste of time to people who care about efficiency. Would a change like that also be problematic?

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@bergzwerver quote:I see your point, but I don't think 7k stats is all that much of an extreme requirement for something like this. Especially if you look at some other loot based games where sometimes even pretty much completing an entire MMO, which takes conciderably longer still unlocks you content that will help you significantly. in some games you're still unlocking new enemies to fight with new rewards after thousands of hours of gameplay. In some MMO's, you litterally double the rate at which you can gain currency for completing a large portion of the game which would also take thousands of hours in some cases. Heck, in WoW some items will litterally take you month after month after month to get because of daily/weekly lockouts, and those items offer a much greater advantage than this chicken change would.

Alright, I would like to see your NMHC build starting on wave 28 (32). I have 6k hours on record (fml) but the 7k mark has been not passed. Well I don't lab. Also comparing DD with an MMO is somewhat out of place just alone by the content. MMOs are designed to be played for years, DD has roundabout 30(?) maps.


@bergzwerver quote:Compare this to getting 7k stats to gain 8% damage on your pet that's already best in slot, and guess what, you will probably never even need that 8% extra damage on your pet. In fact, that 8% damage will probably never even help you in a significant way. You might save 3 seconds of your life at a boss at some point or whatever.

So, why would you need 8% more damage in first place if they would be not noticeable? You are right, they won't be noticeable because the Chicken is already the strongest pet, an overpowered pet which will wreck everything in this game. Hence a buff is just something for stat *****.


@bergzwerver quote:

Ofcourse I'm not saying DD should be like every other game out there but the loot progression is really jagged in this game right now. After you get through the core game it turns to complete and utter unguided chaos. As someone who's really into RPG's especially for the progression, the fact that so soon in a game where I want to spend so much time on you get to a point where you can still improve your characters by a lot, but no where along the way will you ever unlock something "usefull" makes me a bit sad. It's come to the point where stats are pretty much cosmetics. I realise lab assault is deffinitly a big part of that problem but it was clearly stated that this post wasn't supposed to be about lab assault. Obviously there's more too it than just chickens, but you have to start somewhere. 


It's funny that you are talking about jagged progression beyond the base game while the first thing you want to change is the last pet people have to grind for. We are always talking exclusively about the feeling and wishes of high-end players. About the need to get better and better, higher and higher. At some point a game doesn't offer further progression because you have finished it.

You have played 2k hours by your own, please tell me you were not playing 2000 hours just to increase your stats/dps. I understand that people enjoy games on different ways BUT seriously we have to stop introducing higher and higher stats, better and better items. I really have no idea why we have to do this to DD1 while DDE exactly offers such a (broken) system.


@bergzwerver quote:

In my opinion actually having a practical use in increasing your stats, instead of just the ability to play hard maps that don't actually reward you for your time, is something that I would really want to be in one of my favourite games. Nerfing insane chickens would be a good start to realise something like this. After more changes, maybe we'll get to the point where everytime you improve your characters a certain ammount, you unlock the ability to gain access to some new, cool and better items/content. This would be contrary to motivating people to cheat, as they frequently unlock new and usefull things, instead of there being a giant gap of nothingness where you basically just want those ult items so you can be as cool as all the other people running around, but you don't want to invest the time because it just takes so long and nothing interesting happpens in the mean time.

You realized that the game is 5 years old? Why would you want to change the game so massively which worked for such a long time just fine? I still don't know about what gap people are talking about. However, the progression you are looking for will take years to be implemented and then... there is still Lab Assault. People heave requested that more ult/+/++ have to drop from survival to make it more attractive, while we could just stop rewarding them on Lab. To say it with your words, we have to start somewhere.

BTW you have exactly mentioned the reason why people hack... they don't want to invest much time. You think they will invest the time in legit gear which is able to handle TLNMHC just to get the newest best pet to be as cool as others? Exactly this encourages hackers.


@bergzwerver quote:Furthermore, leaving the chickens as is motivates people to cheat as much as it demotivates people to play who are looking for a smooth progression curve.

One time you are saying people hack to be as cool as others, to use the same good items, and now you are saying they hack because the hard way does not offer an upgrade? Seems very odd. Why would you hack if you have the option between an relatively easy way or the hard way which is behind grind wall?


@bergzwerver quote:

As a lot of you seem to dissagree with the nerf so I don't expect it to be a thing anytime soon. But what would you guys think of increasing the amount of chickens you get, or increasing the chances for getting better chickens on nightmare? This way the same chickens would still be available to people who can't handle nightmare tink. This would make those long nightmare tink runs feel like less of a waste of time to people who care about efficiency. Would a change like that also be problematic?

Insane chickens have already great chances to spawn very good. I assume that's the whole point behind this discussion to nerf insane and buff nm chickens. i don't know how greater chances should look like. More chickens as rewards could be an option. If so not on last wave but how about adding a chicken on NM wave 30 OR better add another special pet to NM wave 30, probably a fairy or a new one. That way you get something for "your" time.



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@EagleOne quote:
@bergzwerver quote:

As a lot of you seem to dissagree with the nerf so I don't expect it to be a thing anytime soon. But what would you guys think of increasing the amount of chickens you get, or increasing the chances for getting better chickens on nightmare? This way the same chickens would still be available to people who can't handle nightmare tink. This would make those long nightmare tink runs feel like less of a waste of time to people who care about efficiency. Would a change like that also be problematic?

Insane chickens have already great chances to spawn very good. I assume that's the whole point behind this discussion to nerf insane and buff nm chickens. i don't know how greater chances should look like. More chickens as rewards could be an option. If so not on last wave but how about adding a chicken on NM wave 30 OR better add another special pet to NM wave 30, probably a fairy or a new one. That way you get something for "your" time.



I think this is a great idea.

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I'm personally not opposed to Insane chickens having 175 ups and capped to 400 stats. I'd like to see NM chickens be left where they are though.

Just this slight change I feel would be the best of both worlds; it's a notable difference for those choosing between insane and NM, but it's not so drastic as to make insane chickens irrelevant.

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