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Nexus

CDT UPDATE 3 : Tavern Expansion Discussion

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In terms of the big vs. small issue, and Im not an experienced map maker just a little dabbling so take this with a grain of salt,


but how hard would it be to incorporate a door that the host can always walk through but must hit a button on the upper floor to allow other players to walk through? It would work essentially like the moonbase doors wouldn't it?


Im not sure how that works in terms of mesh/kismet since I'm pretty sure that stuff is universal, or we could put the button in the "media room? hidden room? you know what i mean" room. Which effectively blocks everyone out.

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With words like these -- "It is not the CDT's purpose, or mine, to be here to please everyone with every single design/request/demand." You are doing more harm to the community than good with your content. The CDT stands for -- "COMMUNITY Development Team" and not "Nexus Development Team". Even one person is part of the community and if that person has a concern, it should be addressed.

I say the following not as a representative of the CDT or Trendy:

IF one person doesn't like it something, no one on the team is obligated to pander to that one persons whims; even if there are 10 people who didn't like something.. no one has to change anything, provide anything. That's just how it is. Not a single person on this forum is entitled to it.  If that offends you.. you ought to go re-prioritize your life.

 The CDT isn't my team. Never was, never will be. I've mostly been a consultant to some things up until this project, and as far as I am concerned, that's what I shall be credited as. 

 It's a community built team. And the community has gotten to dictate almost everything we've done when it comes to changes, content, difficulties, items, ideas for levels.. everything. 

 But heaven forbid someone tells you no

So I'm going to say this again more clearly : The Tavern Expansion will be out in the beta and if you lot don't like it you can have your  default tavern.  No, there's not going to be an option to ever have one or the other for the remainder of my short time on the team.

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You quite clearly sound like you are doing everyone a massive favour by creating a new tavern. It is pretty obvious from the get go and now its fairly clear that you are changing things based on your requirement and not taking feedback from people, be it 1 person, be it 100.
It is also obvious that you are hell bent on pushing this update becasue you've failed in the past to do so. Probably becasue of your attitude towards people voicing their concern/opinion.

In that case I'd much rather be happy with the old tavern. Don't need you to do me a favour with a new tavern. Thanks.

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clear that you are changing things based on your requirement and not taking feedback from people, be it 1 person, be it 100.
It is also obvious that you are hell bent on pushing this update becasue you've failed in the past to do so. Probably becasue of your attitude towards people voicing their concern/opinion.

In that case I'd much rather be happy with the old tavern. Don't need you to do me a favour with a new tavern. Thanks.

Nothing's changed. There's a lot of community requested changes cominng to the Tavern with the expansion. Quite a few things.  People can voice their concern and opinions as much as they like and changes have come from them being heard.  Anyone on the team can provide a hundred+ examples over the last year. The fact of the matter is the community is heard on everything.

Now that I've said "NO" to a single request it's been taken on like some kind of which hunt to prosecute me for saying so.  If you think it's unreasonable to say no to something , for which I've already provided reason. That being there's no reason to be adding doors to something no one has experienced in game yet, much less a reason for for anyone on the development team to logically add a door to block what is going to be an open floor to everyone, non-exclusive, no achievements required, no buttons to be pushed and no invisible walls to be bumped into  "just because the host says so!" That is not and never will be the purpose of the Tavern Expansion and that is something the team as a whole agreed upon. 

 If you feel it's okay to be exclusive with content that is designed for the community, then you've missed the whole point of what the CDT is supposed to be. The CDT is not anyone's whipping horse.. it's a community service for people who love the game, by people who love the game. If you think for a second I go out of my way to disregard what anyone would like to see for this game, you clearly don't know how I got onto the team to start with.

 And yeah, I had a hard time getting involved with Dungeon Defenders and on more than one occassion put my best foot forward to try and improve the game I like and had it stomped on. But here I am.. still trying to help improve OTHER peoples experiences with Dungeon Defenders, as a whole, not limited to the forums, but the game itself. If I am a bad guy for doing so, then so be it, but shame on you for trying to turn my response into a negative thing.  You're (you know who you are) poison to the community, not a boon to it.

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Nexus is giving his time and energy trying to put together an expanded tavern while trying to keep it as close to original as possible and provide the long requested tavern theme selections which he is recreating because of the larger tavern.  So yes it is a big favor he is undertaking for the community as a whole.

As for saying no to a particular suggestion, not everything can be done as I stated in my previous post.  Sometimes things are one way or another due to various reasons.  It wasn't meant to callously ignore the player's suggestion.  The thread is to gather input on what can be done with the new tavern but that doesn't mean everything suggested is possible or feasible to implement.

Also, there hasn't been an opportunity for anyone to actually have a bigger tavern in DD1 until now.  There wasn't a chance in the past to push for this.  




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I can understand technical difficulties in having or switching to and fro with the old tavern, that was never my suggestion.
I'm all for the new and expanded tavern so I can organize my things on the floor all the while being able to switch between various themes.

However, he didn't respond like you did Acen, by citing possible technical difficulties in having 2 sets of maps and same items on each everytime you switch back and forth among other reason as to why it can't be done.

A simple explanation on why it can't be done should've been more than enough. Instead he chooses to be unnecessarily hostile towards people asking for the old tavern, or basically anyone in disagreement with him. And the only thing poisonous here is his attitude. I don't care if you directed that comment towards me or someone else, but your attitude is definitely the only thing poisonous here.

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@Black Mamba quote:

I can understand technical difficulties in having or switching to and fro with the old tavern, that was never my suggestion.
I'm all for the new and expanded tavern so I can organize my things on the floor all the while being able to switch between various themes.

However, he didn't respond like you did Acen, by citing possible technical difficulties in having 2 sets of maps and same items on each everytime you switch back and forth among other reason as to why it can't be done.

A simple explanation on why it can't be done should've been more than enough. Instead he chooses to be unnecessarily hostile towards people asking for the old tavern, or basically anyone in disagreement with him. And the only thing poisonous here is his attitude. I don't care if you directed that comment towards me or someone else, but your attitude is definitely the only thing poisonous here.

The comment was not meant to be attacking.  I agree text could be read as such though.  It was meant more just as a matter of fact.  

However once interpreted wrong, then other responses arent in kind which end up being responded to as well.  Viscious cycle sometimes all from two people reading the same thing differently.  

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Guys lets not break out into war here, I simply asked if it would be possible to switch between the 2 taverns if the larger tavern update happens, honestly would not be that hard to do. I am completely for a new tavern but it would also be great if there were an option to keep the old one or switch to the old one whenever you wanted to. As Eagle said there could also be an option to just have a door that leads to the old tavern so the 2 of them are connected and the host can toggle the door being open or closed or something along the lines of that.



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@acen
nobody was asking for another map as tavern, simply a door which can be controlled by the host to be open or closed. starfox has mentioned moonbase which also has "doors" or gates to be opened by buttons. so the mechanics are there.


simply put a door on bottom level which can be controlled by the host. either by an option within the pause menu or by a button in one of the secret rooms...

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@Nexus quote:

With words like these -- "It is not the CDT's purpose, or mine, to be here to please everyone with every single design/request/demand." You are doing more harm to the community than good with your content. The CDT stands for -- "COMMUNITY Development Team" and not "Nexus Development Team". Even one person is part of the community and if that person has a concern, it should be addressed.

I say the following not as a representative of the CDT or Trendy:

IF one person doesn't like it something, no one on the team is obligated to pander to that one persons whims; even if there are 10 people who didn't like something.. no one has to change anything, provide anything. That's just how it is. Not a single person on this forum is entitled to it.  If that offends you.. you ought to go re-prioritize your life.

 The CDT isn't my team. Never was, never will be. I've mostly been a consultant to some things up until this project, and as far as I am concerned, that's what I shall be credited as. 

 It's a community built team. And the community has gotten to dictate almost everything we've done when it comes to changes, content, difficulties, items, ideas for levels.. everything. 

 But heaven forbid someone tells you no

So I'm going to say this again more clearly : The Tavern Expansion will be out in the beta and if you lot don't like it you can have your  default tavern.  No, there's not going to be an option to ever have one or the other for the remainder of my short time on the team.

Another great insight... and proves the overall mind. Concerns and suggestions will be not taken seriously if they are coming from a single person... I guess that's why most of my statements has been simply ignored in the past because I'm not included at the exclusive table around the CDT. Also the hidden insult within your reply shows a lot to say the least.


So it is either you like it as "I WANT IT TO BE LIKED" or "YOU GET SIMPLY THE OLD TAVERN BACK" instead of even trying to please both parties. You do realize that just a minority of the community participates here at the forums? So this one user is for sure not the only one who would like the tavern with the original size. In addition you already have seen agreement by people who actually like the bigger tavern.


Since you simply refuse to work for a higher variety of players probably due to laziness... I'm offering my help. If I get access to the latest DDDK including Moonbase and you pass me your map data, I'll look into Moonbase myself to check how the door to the Dance Machine has been added. Give me a week and that door has been added to "your" new Tavern.


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@Nexus quote:

clear that you are changing things based on your requirement and not taking feedback from people, be it 1 person, be it 100.
It is also obvious that you are hell bent on pushing this update becasue you've failed in the past to do so. Probably becasue of your attitude towards people voicing their concern/opinion.

In that case I'd much rather be happy with the old tavern. Don't need you to do me a favour with a new tavern. Thanks.

Nothing's changed. There's a lot of community requested changes cominng to the Tavern with the expansion. Quite a few things.  People can voice their concern and opinions as much as they like and changes have come from them being heard.  Anyone on the team can provide a hundred+ examples over the last year. The fact of the matter is the community is heard on everything.

Now that I've said "NO" to a single request it's been taken on like some kind of which hunt to prosecute me for saying so.  If you think it's unreasonable to say no to something , for which I've already provided reason. That being there's no reason to be adding doors to something no one has experienced in game yet, much less a reason for for anyone on the development team to logically add a door to block what is going to be an open floor to everyone, non-exclusive, no achievements required, no buttons to be pushed and no invisible walls to be bumped into  "just because the host says so!" That is not and never will be the purpose of the Tavern Expansion and that is something the team as a whole agreed upon. 

 If you feel it's okay to be exclusive with content that is designed for the community, then you've missed the whole point of what the CDT is supposed to be. The CDT is not anyone's whipping horse.. it's a community service for people who love the game, by people who love the game. If you think for a second I go out of my way to disregard what anyone would like to see for this game, you clearly don't know how I got onto the team to start with.

 And yeah, I had a hard time getting involved with Dungeon Defenders and on more than one occassion put my best foot forward to try and improve the game I like and had it stomped on. But here I am.. still trying to help improve OTHER peoples experiences with Dungeon Defenders, as a whole, not limited to the forums, but the game itself. If I am a bad guy for doing so, then so be it, but shame on you for trying to turn my response into a negative thing.  You're (you know who you are) poison to the community, not a boon to it.

It is your overall attitude Black is talking about and he is absolutely right about it. You do not do us a great favor. The game was working fine 5 years with a small Tavern. Just because a few requested a bigger tavern doesn't mean they are totally unhappy with current small tavern. Honestly your attitude sounds like you believe to do a major favor to us - the community - just like many others within the CDT. We all appreciate the time you guys spent within the CDT working on DD BUT DD was fine without you. A selected few users had wishes, either they are sitting now in the CDT or they have a friend sitting there.


Many suggestions and changes you are referring to (the CDT works according to the community) hasn't been mentioned in the forums. Survival starting wave or building in spawn for example; While a few users were against this and it actually looked like the community was split... the CDT had magical more people on the list who would like such a change... so it happened.


You have stated your reasons to say no. Anyways several others have stated opposite reasons but YOU set your own higher than anyone else. Why does worth your opinion/reasoning more than others? Yes, you are the one who worked on the Tavern. Yes, you are the hero who did the job. Why, refusing such a simple addition to make more people happy, to make more users thinking of a hero about you?


Are you scared your bigger Tavern won't be used when you add a possibility for hosts to control a door to give access? None the less you may want to re-read certain threads. A lot of users requested the ability to just give certain people access to the higher level of your tavern. While you said that would be not posssible (iirc) I do believe you just refused their request because YOU didn't want such a restriction.


While the suggested door for a smaller tavern does not explicitily matches the wishes for an exclusive room for friends of the hosts, it still provides the ability for these users to close top-level while hosting public. Saying that, you already have more users than just Maggicus who would like such a feature besides Black, Atherial, starfox and me here at the forums.


Hence, I'm requesteing access to an up-to-date DDDK and your Tavern data to modify YOUR Tavern by my own. Even though I'm not a mapmaker, I strongly believe I'm capable to get the job done. This is a serious request, I will happily spent free time to work on it. Afterwards, nobody can say there wasn't anyone who would have done the job. So what does the CDT thinks about it? Do you accept help from the community or is that a big no since we are not sitting at the exclusive table?


To be clear, I'll add the door, doing his job and he can work further on "his" tavern. I don't even want credits.

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Guys calm down. I really want to see this tavern, if only in the beta. Let's wait with all this negativity until we actually see it.

Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, adding a door will not allow you to be magically able to switch between this new design and the original; you still have the same problem of having two essentially different maps. Or perhaps you are saying you don't want to change back as long as you have a door? That one makes no sense to me... What does a door change? Yeah I really don't get it.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing this new tavern. I will decide whether I like it after I have seen it, but I think that I will like it.

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@EagleOne quote:
@acen
nobody was asking for another map as tavern, simply a door which can be controlled by the host to be open or closed. starfox has mentioned moonbase which also has "doors" or gates to be opened by buttons. so the mechanics are there.


simply put a door on bottom level which can be controlled by the host. either by an option within the pause menu or by a button in one of the secret rooms...

I think there is some confusion here or maybe it is just me.  The original tavern is what Magicus was asking for, if I understood him correctly, which is a separate map.  Then you mentioned a door as a way to get to it.  I think you are wanting the door for something other than what he wanted if I am reading it all right.


Side Note:

Switching between taverns has another problem.  When moving to the expanded tavern, items are still within the walls of the tavern since they have a fixed position in the map when dropped.  However if you place items in the new tavern near the walls or on the second floor and then switch back to a smaller tavern, your items are then left outside the map.

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@ThePoet424 quote:

Guys calm down. I really want to see this tavern, if only in the beta. Let's wait with all this negativity until we actually see it.

Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, adding a door will not allow you to be magically able to switch between this new design and the original; you still have the same problem of having two essentially different maps. Or perhaps you are saying you don't want to change back as long as you have a door? That one makes no sense to me... What does a door change? Yeah I really don't get it.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing this new tavern. I will decide whether I like it after I have seen it, but I think that I will like it.

Some people just like a small tavern... we are also not talking about different maps (taverns). I don't know how anyone can think of 2 taverns when we are talking about an additional door to grant or restrict access to the top level of Nexus' new tavern.


To be clear; We are talking exclusively about Nexus' new tavern. While the bottom level of his tavern is a copy of current tavern, we do not see any legitimate reason to not provide the ability of a host-controlled door which either opens the door to grant access to the top-level (big tavern) or closes the door to deny access to the top-level (small tavern).


http://i.imgur.com/Ga9uS2L.jpg


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Eagleone. 

You want to insult the CDT and then try and offer help? Yeah okay. Go ahead and add a door to a tavern you build from scratch with the ddk you have. Good luck.



The reason for not having the old tavern available at the same time,  is because the loading time for the lobby level will double. Everything added to a level increases the file size and that means more loading time. The average players computer (a lot of laptops, a lot if older hardware) wont load maps over 100mbs in any favoravle amount of time.


Now the two of you, (Blackmamba,Eagleo e) are making a huge stink because you are again told no. I can keep giving you reasons why it wont be optimal. And I can keep engaging your toxic responses.  You can keep coming back at me with your self entitled idiocy. It isnt going to change anything.  Neither of you are going to come around telling people whats what like you know something about the development process without picking up the tools and doing the work yourself.


The answer is no. There wont be this door thats stupid easy to add just so there can be an old tavern right next door. Thats not optimal for a lot of reasons. Now instead of making fools of yourselves... you could have just asked to have the old tavern to be put into the map list, and thats that. Problem solved.


And that is whats going to be done.


Again if people who actually play the beta like having an expanded tavern, an extra floor, a upgraded juke box, a diamond forge, and what was coming in a later update, a mini game and an outside space. And oh yeah, more combat dummies.... and every holiday theme. But you know if people dont really want that, thats fine,  the old tavern can stay.  It isnt my decision ultiimately.


I do not appreciate the tone or the level of hostility  engaged here on this forum. Nothing said and directed at me has any merit.




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@Nexus quote:

Eagleone. 

You want to insult the CDT and then try and offer help? Yeah okay. Go ahead and add a door to a tavern you build from scratch with the ddk you have. Good luck.


Where do I insult the CDT? Where do I say I want to do it from the scratch? Read accordingly!


@Nexus quote:The reason for not having the old tavern available at the same time,  is because the loading time for the lobby level will double. Everything added to a level increases the file size and that means more loading time. The average players computer (a lot of laptops, a lot if older hardware) wont load maps over 100mbs in any favoravle amount of time. 


Read accordingly! Okay, a door requires several ten megabytes ... fail? If you are worried that a single door will be troublesome for an average computer... well your tavern is probably to huge by default, by its own?


@Nexus quote:Now the two of you, (Blackmamba,Eagleo e) are making a huge stink because you are again told no. I can keep giving you reasons why it wont be optimal.


Please do so, why is it not possible to add a *** door while YOU have asked for additional possible "mini games" within your new tavern.


@Nexus quote:And I can keep engaging your toxic responses.  You can keep coming back at me with your self entitled idiocy. It isnt going to change anything.  Neither of you are going to come around telling people whats what like you know something about the development process without picking up the tools and doing the work yourself.



The only one who is toxic is you! You are sitting on YOUR horse looking downwards on us (not just on Black and me, on all). Self entitled idiocy?.... I'm sorry I won't go down to your level. Just think about it, nobody of us has insulted anyone but you just did.


Why do you think we don't have any ideas about development? About me, I have worked on my own game modes for different games, hence why I did a lot of experience when it goes to balancing, hence why I've given so many in-depth detailed examples of how to change certain towers, hence why I'm able to provide an idea where to look at if a bug has been introduced. However, your statement proves once more that you think you are somewhat special.


@Nexus quote:The answer is no. There wont be this door thats stupid easy to add just so there can be an old tavern right next door. Thats not optimal for a lot of reasons. Now instead of making fools of yourselves... you could have just asked to have the old tavern to be put into the map list, and thats that. Problem solved. 



Read accordingly! I even offered my help to add this *** door in your *** tavern but it is nice to see how YOU react. Great attitude for a CDT member. You can be angry as much as you want, nobody of us insulted you nor anyone else, nobody of us requested absolute absurd things.


@Nexus quote:And that is whats going to be done.


Again if people who actually play the beta like having an expanded tavern, an extra floor, a upgraded juke box, a diamond forge, and what was coming in a later update, a mini game and an outside space. And oh yeah, more combat dummies.... and every holiday theme. But you know if people dont really want that, thats fine,  the old tavern can stay.  It isnt my decision ultiimately.


So all this "low kilobyte" changes are coming in a later update to your tavern but a door is not possible? *head-scratch* How much MB does eat a door?


@Nexus quote:I do not appreciate the tone or the level of hostility  engaged here on this forum. Nothing said and directed at me has any merit.


The tone? We haven't insulted you nor anyone else.

The level of hostility? If you can't deal with negative critism... well... what's wrong then? If you want to be praised from all sides... well... then you will have to be open for suggestions... I still can't believe a door... a single door is impossible to be added.


So again... why is a door not possible but

an expanded tavern, an extra floor, a upgraded juke box, a diamond forge, and what was coming in a later update, a mini game and an outside space. And oh yeah, more combat dummies.... and every holiday theme.

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You are the one calling people as toxic for voicing their opinion.
You are the one calling people's ideas and suggestions as "idiotic".
You are the one being hostile towards anyone in disagreement with you, not me or anyone else.
Twice you have now referred to me and EagleOne as toxic and poisonous.
And after all that you expect us to be nice and dandy with you? Are you for real?

You didn't explain why it can't be done(having the old and new tavern as an option), rather you went into pontificating about how you have spent years trying to get this through and how you will not have it put off now. To be fair no one wants you to put it off, and I've been maintaining since early on that I absolutely love the concept of a bigger tavern and mini-games and what not. You can read my previous posts in this very thread if you think I'm on a "witch-hunt" for you. LOL.

I only addressed you by citing someone who wanted an option to have an older tavern, which is a sensitive issue whether you are comfortable with it or not. To which you responded with hostility for literally no reason without even understanding the thing to begin with and confused yourself with some other issue(the door thingy).

Acen provided couple of reasons as to why having the old tavern might be an issue with dual maps and such. And he did that without being a total jerk about it, unlike you. So yeah, stop being a jerk to anyone putting forth their concerns just becasue you think it is not a concern.

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Thanks to everyone for providing feedback. The discussion is getting a little off track here so we're going to close it for now. Please remember to be mindful of other's opinions and keep the discourse civil for the future.

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