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CDT Update 3 Discussions Incoming!! We Need Your Input!!

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i'm afraid to say this but lab has gotten hit hard with the nerf hammer the chance to get good items has been slaughtered and the drop rates of "good" trans are way lower. it is hard to even get double caps now. if you need more proof other than my word i'm sure that the legendary runner himself VeeToO will agree with me (mainly since we have talked about it lots lately). But if you need further proof i will be willing running 250 - 500 runs and recording the items gained in higher detail on a spreadsheet then uploading them and im sure if i asked i could get VeeToO to join me in this adventure. 

On the topic of lab assult i feel that we should either gut lab completely or return it back to the state it was in. to be honest im leaning towards gutting it. since it adds far too many ult++'s into the marketplace which is very bad for the economy of the game we have already seen that prices are dropping considerably on ult++ and on things like ults the price is non existent. If the prices keep dropping people are not going to run maps as much further hurting the player base. Low prices on high end gear is not healthy for long lasting game play. lets look at path of exile since i have been playing it lately. in the late game there are items like ult++ lets say. and these items sell for a insane amount this is 1 due to rarity and 2 due to demand. so lets take this items in a dungeon defenders environment. lets say a ult++ drops and is sold in the old times it would sell for a high price since demand is high and the rarity is high. but in the current day if you sell a ult++ the demand is lower naturally as time goes on since you can never lose your items and the rarity is less since there is not a sink in the system besides people leaving but that effects events more. so what is the issue in this you may wonder means cheaper items for us right... WRONG the less a item goes for the less likely the person will continue farming especially a new player. and it also devalues the time spent farming a specific item. 

So how does lab fit into this whole market place crisis. well the damage has already been done it has devalued almost every tier of armor. It has made trans a joke and that damage may never be reversed on the lower end gear. though the higher end gear like ult+ and ult++ can still be helped if we make a move some time soon. Also i will talk about events later.

So Atherial yo sound like a mad man what do you suggest to fix this. well first off i will talk about my idea for lab assault. Please don't hate me for this i am just posting my opinion.

1. completely slaughter the drop rates in lab to make a trans spawn like a sup a sup spawn like a ult and a lt spawn like a ult+ and a ult+ like a ult+ with a bit lower drop rate. (making it a ult++ is a bit harsh)

2. make pets spawn better in lab assault. yes i said it i want to buff the pet drop rates this is so that you go in to lab thinking i'm gonna farm some pets not i'm gonna farm some armor. And even make the drop rate of good acc better there (slightly). this will make the supply of ult++ pets stay the same which is in a very good state. it may even make the supply lower raising the price and making lab a viable farm still.

3. Buff the drop rates on good myth there. this will allow good myths to be able to be purchased if a player needs to get into survivals. make sure that the mayhs don't get killed by the change.

So those are my suggested changes to lab assault now Atherial you said something about event items and how they are relevant to the price of ult++ items and can be related. ok so a event item is a very good example of what the high tier of gear should be like marketplace wise.  they have a low supply meaning they have rarity and they have a high demand since who does not want a fancy event item. also you may notice that the event items have not dropped in price instead they have sky rocketed directly opposing the graph shown by ult++ armor. this is since they are being taken out of the market by people leaving and curt being drunk and selling his to the tavern keeper <3. Just look at the something blue auction (my favorite event item) it hit like 95cv. and the person man chart has it at 25cv. ok so you may be wondering how we can make ult++ armor reach this glorius point again. Well sorry to say but we can't or well not truly we can raise the rarity by slaughtering lab but as i said there are 2 parts that make this price the supply being the rarity and the demand. due to a long time of low prices the demand has been hurt but not to the point were we can not recover. If we drop the rates from lab alone leaving only survival to get ult++ reliably then the demand will slowly raise as even sub par items come up since you now sorta can't wait for the perfect one since it will take far longer. I also feel that the ult+ is in the same place right now. this would help the market in a huge way and in turn the game more stable. But this is not where it ends i am going to suggest another issue with the market. and that issue is that there is not enough cv-sink as ill be calling it for the players with a high end. now i know that we do not want stat progresstion and this makes total sense to me. things are crazy as is. heck people have 8k builders. so i am suggesting to create a new aspect of armor called "golden" or "mystical" or "ascended" you get the point. so what will this new type of armor be. well it will have the following traits.

1. the "_____" will replace the "enchanted" or what ever it is in the items name.
for example - "{ultimate++ golden leather gloves" or "{ultimate+ mystical plate helm"{

2. they will have a cool glowing or sparkling animation when you look at the armor in the hero page. sorta like the set bonus to show they are awesome.

3. they will fit into a set without needing to be replaced so lets say if you have all leather and you get a "______" item that is leather you will not lose the bonus and it will fit right in. 

4. they will be have a rare chance of spawning and have the same chance on every armor type above mythical or whatever we decide i would make trans the lowest that can spawn with the "______" tag.

5. This is what really brings it all together you know the acc sets that make a cool cosmedic effect well lets say you get a full set of "golden" then your character model will be sparkling and golden making a sorta new skin for a champ but though getting a set of really rare armor.

6. They will also only be obtainable on survivals from the new CDT maps like ember-mount this is since those maps are harder than the basic ones and makes a false progression before you can obtain these amazing items. It also makes more people want to run the new survivals besides the new pets which this patch has shown have not been a big hit.

So with this new system we would have a much cleaner cv flow between players making a healthier trading enviorment than we currently have. and who says that these can not be applied to weapons. lets say if we choose for a select list of items to be able to spawn like this a few i can think of being.
> bloodshot
> bone staff
> hydro spear
> aqua lance

(i know these are from maps that are not new CDT but it would be only these that can drop like this no armor)

this does all the following things
> does not raise the stat cap
> better flow of currency from high tier players
> a new "skin" for players that farm and trade a lot
> a new way for a new player to "cash in" on a drop
> a second progression without hurting stats
> gets people running more maps so they are less liely to leave from boredom of lab assault
> more bragging rights
> more ways to be trolled by RNG :D

so hope that makes sense and i people agree with me in some way. note i am not a "good" coder (i do know a little bit of java and am not bad at html) so i have no idea the technical implementations of this all. if it is impossible than just tell me that i hope some of you agree with my point of view and if anyone want clarification i will answer all questions in another post since i can promise that i missed something. oh yah and my event item post is coming later i sorta got into it here but i don't want this to be 5000+ words so i will save it for later. 

if you made it this far ill give you 53 mana in DD just message me that you made it that far i will have one question to confirm that you did. 

have a good night all 

> Atherial

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@Alhanalem quote:



@Black Mamba quote:

Ahem, Tavernkeeper usually gets a stock of Trans armor or higher, but it extremely rare.
I'd say no to changing the Tavernkeep having an increased chance of stocking on higher quality armor becasue progression.
You don't want people to get Trans or higher armor right away. As if Lab hasn't made it ridiculously easy to get hold of good armor.
Besides, his item quality changes based on what maps you did and on which difficulty. Not all NMHC maps are same, so if you do Lab NMHC you'll find him keeping worn, cursed, torn items. If you do Kings Game NMHC, you'll find him keeping better items, and so on for different maps AND challenges.

Tavernkeeper is fine, he just needs to drink less ale and stop selling certain 53 mana items for 45 mana.

You know that the tavernkeep's stock is based on the last completed map right? it can't really break progression because of this.

To add to this, Lab Assault is literally the bottom of the barrel when it comes to post-mission tavernkeep quality. Running things like embermount will net potentially better items.

I've purchased supreme armor from the shop before. I also believe my supreme genie was a shop pet at one point as well.

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@Magicuss quote:

A little quality of  life change could be when summoning a minion in the tavern, make it not take so long. You could have it take as long as it takes to summon them in build phase instead of combat phase.

Good suggestion.  This one has actually been coded already so you should see it when the beta comes out.


@Atherial quote:

i'm afraid to say this but lab has gotten hit hard with the nerf hammer the chance to get good items has been slaughtered and the drop rates of "good" trans are way lower. 

There wasnt a nerf hammer taken to lab, at least not directly.  It actually may have been boosted some in the last patch due to a bug that increased the quality of some items, the lvl 60 bug .  I can check with crzy to see if that bug would have improved lab for 8.1.  If that is the case, like I suspect, then lab is now back to the way it was before 8.1 since that bug has been fixed.  

From your description, it sounds like the lab I knew when it first came out.  It took a while to get really good gear.

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@Alhanalem quote:
You know that the tavernkeep's stock is based on the last completed map right? it can't really break progression because of this.

You know that I've said literally the same thing as you and then what Gizagelle added on later. If only you'd have read it better.

Besides, his item quality changes based on what maps you did and on which difficulty. Not all NMHC maps are same, so if you do Lab NMHC you'll find him keeping worn, cursed, torn items. If you do Kings Game NMHC, you'll find him keeping better items, and so on for different maps AND challenges.

And yes it can break progression if suddenly loot drops from Tavernkeep is buffed. Say i'm at a stage to be able to do Glitter runs at best, but struggle with it, and after a Tavernkeeper buff -- suddenly I'm getting Trans+ items from him, then THAT breaks progression becasue you are practically getting free stuff without any effort. Does it remind you of LAB ASSAULT? DOES IT NOW?
Weren't you against "buffing everything" as a policy? I don't see any reason as to why the Tavernkeeper loot should be buffed. If that's the case, lets just add Ults & Superemes in Deeper Wells Easy Non-Hardcore Pure-Strategy and call it a day. Better loot for everyone, no more complaining about poor loot, and no more worrying about progression either.

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Suggestion :

sometimes when i'm hosting a Floor shop i want to show my friends some ult++ items or even Event items but i can show them everything unless if i put it all in trade witch is annoying to do everytime or drop it on floor and that be risky since some hackers might see it .

that's why we always put the most important stuff on the host room

so i suggest that we add a button or something like that to give an exception for some players that we choose to enter the host room .

fP3fFsH.jpg


Idea on how to make an exception for players :

we can add an icon on the esc page to make an exception like this ...

w34UXo2.jpg

that will be very very helpful if it can be done and thanks ^^

cheers kg4q 

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Is the host room really safe from hackers?  If the item data is transmitted to their computer when they join the shop, then even if they can't get close enough to inspect it, I imagine they could dupe it anyway :(

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[[157616,users]]

not sure about that but they can't get in the host room so they can't see the items 

idk about the data transmit never heard of such thing 

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Well, Pew has confirmed with me that they are able to see your items without hovering over them or something like that.
So yea, sadly even with the rooms it is not safe coz everything you have gets parsed and sent on their side and they can change your stuff too. At least that was Pew said.

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I have a suggestion for a new challenge:


Take a big map like karathiki jungle. Start with only one cristal and (max DU)/(number of total cristals). Once you start a timer runs 5*(number of total cristals) min counting down. Every 5 min a new cristal gets unlocked and (max DU)/(number of total cristals) DU gets added (DU gets added about 1 min before the cristal is unlocked). When the timer runs out completly a boss appears. The boss could simply be a golden old boss like they did for akatiti and other maps (To keep the work at a minimum).

For this challenge you would be forced to play together since you cannot change hero during the fight. Also I think it could be made with different maps (as long as they are big enough and have at least 3 cristals). As a reward i would suggest reskinned weapons. And if it is also possible make the difficulty something around tinkers lab. Then the reskinned weapons could be about as powerfull as a blaster or other engame weapons giving people a bit more variation. For example I would like to see something like the eel zapper, since i really like the style of that weapon. Or the lemurian, because it has really cool range attack.


PS: When I reread this i noticed that it might not be very clear how i meant it. So here is an example:

Map in the example is Karathiki jungle. Max DU: 160 (I was not sure, so i simply picked a number) Total number of cristals is 4 (one in every corner of the map). The game starts with 160/4 = 40 DU and only one cristal (lets say south west). You have your normal build phase and when the combat phase starts the timer also starts. The timer starts with 5*4 = 20min.

When the timer reaches 16 min you get another 40 DU so now you have 80 DU. Also there is an indication on the map where the next cristal will be. The builders in the team can start to setup for the next cristal.

15min : the next cristal appears and also has to be protected.

11min: another 40 DU plus indication for the next cristal  -> 120 DU

10min: next cristal appears

6min: +DU -> 160 DU

5min: +Cristal

Then when the timer runs out a boss appears and when you beat him the challenge is won.

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Thanks for all the hard work CDT!!

The only reason I came back to DD the last 2 times was because of the updates, you are doing a great job.


I only have 1 suggestion:

Make the "required hero level to join" stay the way you put it instead of resetting it every time you restart DD.

Next, make a "maximum level to join" option to go with the minimum. Makes it so that high level trolls don't ruin game play for new player or players that are restarting.

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I have a quick suggestion make it so when changing your skin it tells you what skins buffs what since some skins buff hp etc and possibly what it nerfs (santa barb moves exremely slow)

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In order of what i'd like to see:
1. Reduced lag in certain maps (Tinker's Lab, Crystalline Dimension, etc.)
2. Return of the Easter Eggs so ppl can attempt to get the bunny costume.
3. Filters for the minimap ( loot, enemies, towers ) and an option to make it toggle (on/off) instead of holding down a button
4. An obsidian bow for Akatiki for the huntress/hunter.
5. Obsidian weapon drops in Akatiki based on the player class like other boss drops.

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6. A Tavernkeeper option to minify pets /weapons - option to make them smaller somehow - at what ever price you think is reasonable to charge for the service.

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I also second the notion for doing something with Goblin Cupid pets.
Maybe have them drop in ToL as well with higher stats and qualities.
As as well as Djinnlets, those are very handy for survivals / non-active characters etc., shame that they don't drop above Trans quality and those that do are usually just derpy stats.

I was talking with Starfox regarding end-game, and the thing is end-game is dominated by just a few items. It would be nice that certain old stuff is rewarded in a few new maps but with better overall stats and quality to make things a bit varied.

Right now these things dominate every item --
Pets: Chickens, Cats, Fairies, Genies.
Weps: Obsidians, Rifts, E-Spears, Blasters.
Literally everyone has the same loadout including even accessories, no variety whatsoever left anymore in end-game.

The current lower-end maps and their original rewards shouldn't be touched, becasue progression. However without breaking the lore and theme of map/story in general, some of the older stuff should be carried over and buffed in some new maps or added to the drop pool of some maps. We can discuss about lore and such in depth.

There is also no real and worthwhile way at having a shot on Sup/Ult and higher Pets other than relying heavily on RNG. I'd suggest add a higher chance on some top-end maps or survivals to reward with Sup/Ult/higher pets. There are so many different pets you only see Chickens, not even Seahorse that much these days. I like the idea of Embermount rewarding 3 pets are proper intervals. this could very well be applied to some other maps.
For an example -- Kings Game NMHC(MM) Survival Wave 30 can be given a greater chance of dropping a Sup or Higher pet, the pet can be any of the non-exclusive ones, of course. So that way its not totally game/progression-breaking, and survivals can feel somewhat more rewarding than they currently are.

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@Black Mamba 

The lack of variety in late game is one of my main annoyances with this game. I would love to see more differences in the function of items especially. Great examples of the kind of thing I would like to see more are:

  • Ember Flame and flame staff from ember. They are not better than the existing weapons per se, but they have different strengths. That is, the staff is better for long range and the ember flame is good for short range only.
  • The cosmetic accessory sets. It was always possible to make yourself look different from others, it just wasn't done. This change moves the focus of the accessories back towards looking good, rather than the stats.

In these regards I think the CDT has hit the mark exactly, and I would like to see more in this direction. However, I would take caution changing the existing rewards, I don't think the existing items should be tweaked too much, especially stat-wise. For instance, making certain pets drop at higher tiers would ruin any hard-farmed pets that exist already. I would rather see new pets with the same or similar function on new maps myself.

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Yea, but some of the pets like Shroomite, Moraggo Donkey, Cupids, Djinnlets are extremely weak even compared to vanilla pets in Trans quality these just don't stand a chance.
Maybe have these included in some higher end Shards Maps at wave 30 or in some of the Lost Quests/CDT maps at higher quality. 

Yeah, I can I get the point of current Ult pets, especially Animus, Fairies and Hamsters etc. those should stay rare. But the pets I mentioned could use a slight improvement quality and stat wise for making them decent alternatives at end-game. From the pets mentioned, apart from Djinnlet, nothing else isn't worth using in end-game.

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we have unique pets(The cupid pets healing arrows) and unique weapons(bloodshot staff and its shot pattern) how about unique armor? I was thinking we could have unique armor sets like the zamira set. Since people dont like how inflated stats are maybe they could be made just to look cool? For example say I was doing embermount there could be a rare chance of a helmet dropping called Heated Helmet and it could be maybe like a lava or basalt looking helmet style and if you equip the whole set, similar to accessories it could add a special effect. This could be like the bone staff dropping in moraggo but possibly merely cosmetic?  Or it could be a level reward or something that you could add in to a later map just like zamira set.. I think it could be really awesome if having the whole set equiped do something cool but I cant think of anything. 

I hope everyone gets the idea.

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[[149747,users]] if you could, please edit existing posts rather than making a second post to add more to the same thoughts.

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@Alhanalem quote:

gianthippo96 if you could, please edit existing posts rather than making a second post to add more to the same thoughts.

but the more posts I make the more my post counter goes up and if my post counter gets high with like 1k posts I will seem really pro

another suggestion is make it so you can have items for sale while playing a map

and there seems to be a bug where when upgrading a defense it will try to reach for towers that are just out of your reach (im talking about the thing where it tries to automatically hover over a tower so upgrading is faster)

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I'm sure this has probably been suggested already, but you can't do anything in assault as a summoner due to how pets are disabled (which is fine). Therefore I would like to suggest controlling one of summoner's minions in assault and you can choose between which minion you would like to play (the dark elf warrior hunting event saw you controlling squires that were edited to control like dark elf warriors, so I hope this isn't too difficult). It would be cool if you could heal players as a mage/ have a slightly longer range than other ranged weapons as an archer (to compensate for the non piercing projectile) or run around as a warrior jumping over defences!

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