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CDT Update 3 Discussions Incoming!! We Need Your Input!!

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It is indeed way to late now to nerf lab, even if it still would be the right thing to do from a balance point view. It seems like the only solution CDT has left is to buff everything to be on the same OP level as lab which is bad, but there really isn't any other solutions except for doing nothing and looking the other way. I guess ult armours (+, ++) and such will be much more comon forever now. 


And what is up with all these event items with all these event items with OP stats, didn't we learn from Rainmaker? This is how you get even more hackers into your game...  Vortex things, the cavalary, what happened to those good old event with 100 stats? I already said the halloween bonesword and staff were abit to much for my likings, but now this vortex hammer and shield... really?? I get the idea of the cavalry to do as much damage as the mega chicken, but in a way you just contribute in making things stronger and stronger and continue the upwards spiral just like what happened to lab. 


PS: yeah I know stats don't matter that much blablabla, but it is about the idea that making more OP things to make up for mistakes in the past is not the way to go, just put normal 100 stats on the event items like the old armgaurds.

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Acen -- Yeah, I did notice Accessories getting better in other maps, thanks for that. Can you clarify whether Akatiti has been buffed w.r.t. accessories as well? Or it might just be a random lucky drop for me, but I did find a bunch of good accs off late from Akatiti.


Insofar as making survivals more rewarding, one way I can think of is having better quality of armor drops in there. But as some have mentioned that it might not be possible to have "X-item completely removed from dropping after Y-wave", so I dunno what else can be suggested other than raising multipliers a bit, etc.


I still suggest that we have a dedicated sticky-thread primarily for QoL improvements and suggestions.
Whereas here we can discuss about more general things.


But anyways, I'm more than satisfied now with the clarifications regarding Lab, loot drops and survival in general.
Appreciate the responses from everyone! Thank you!

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This might be a very stupid thought...


But is there any sort of way to bring vanilla weapons up to par with at least having the possibility to be  equal with mid-tier decent weapons. I'm not saying that it should be a constant dropping great weapons and what-not. But the ability to find actually useful vanilla weapons past the beginning of the shards campaign I think would be really helpful for this game in terms of loot.

DD simply seems to have a very bad "its all trash except for 5 things" system. I constantly find vanilla weapons that I would honestly love to use due to effects or cosmetic I just can't reasonably trade my map reward item for it because I would go from being worthwhile in NM to useless stat wise. In terms of typically hero stats and the weapon stats themselves. I would cap them at a point they can at least be useable. You don't have to be a stat junkie to be able to beat the game but you have to at least be able to do some damage.

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Vanilla weapons are ridiculously easy to find in Ult and higher, besides stats, they would require an astronomical amount of upgrades and a lot of base damage buffing to come anywhere close to being viable for use in NMHC mid to end game when compared with other 4-5 reward items.

A better suggestion would be having existing old reward weapons like Spear of Lights, Blade of the North, E-Staff, Nosferatu, etc. getting buffed to bring some variety in the game which is kind of in line with your suggestion that you dont need all the stats in the world to beat the game, but some amount of damage is good enough.

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Buffing the older reward weapons would be fine in my eyes. I just think we need some more variety. Whenever the CDT adds new items we know everyone is going to yell "Stronger Stronger" which just sets a new  high tier item and scraps more items below it in terms to what to use.

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Yes exactly.
Few years back when Sky City was released -- Krytykal Strike was the top-dawg weapon for Ranger/Huntress, then came along Blaster Rifles and now you hardly see anyone using Kryts. It's just a tradition with Trendy that they would release better stuff after each major content update. And I think CDT is following the same trend, which IMO isn't a bad thing at all.
It's just that right now certain weapons have reached such a high level in terms of damage scaling and stats, that literally anything that was old and somewhat a viable option a few years ago -- doesn't hold a candle to them in comparison.
Thereby reducing any amount of variety etc.

Apart from the WW weapons, what I'd like is the Shards specific weapons to get a decent buff as well, they are a lot of fun to use.
Here's hoping I can find an Ult+/Ult++ Shai Hulud or a Shaitan, that would be something! :D

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Well we aren't trying to make older weapons obselete.  We try to keep dps and stats of newer weapons within close range of the top tier of weapons if a new map is consider top tier.  We have plans for mid tier maps in the next update so it isn't just high end that gets released.

As for older weapons that drop, buffing them would mess with the progression And balance of the original campaign up through insane which I think most agree is pretty good.  It is possible to look at creating a new reward based on an old model though and have it as a reward on some new content.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Yes exactly.
Few years back when Sky City was released -- Krytykal Strike was the top-dawg weapon for Ranger/Huntress, then came along Blaster Rifles and now you hardly see anyone using Kryts. It's just a tradition with Trendy that they would release better stuff after each major content update. And I think CDT is following the same trend, which IMO isn't a bad thing at all.
It's just that right now certain weapons have reached such a high level in terms of damage scaling and stats, that literally anything that was old and somewhat a viable option a few years ago -- doesn't hold a candle to them in comparison.
Thereby reducing any amount of variety etc.

Apart from the WW weapons, what I'd like is the Shards specific weapons to get a decent buff as well, they are a lot of fun to use.
Here's hoping I can find an Ult+/Ult++ Shai Hulud or a Shaitan, that would be something! :D

Find me a few Ult++ Shai Huluds, Undying Rods, and Oculus (the real things...not the drops or Rainmaker) and I'll throw currency at you faster than you can scream from being bludgeoned to death by cubes and diamonds. :p

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[[82645,users]]

No. I don't know yet what exactly is going on so I don't want to speculate, but it's not a timeout

mkjo

More monsters => more loot.
Same story as just about every other wierd myth DD players have come up with, it has no effect :P

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[[29815,users]] -- Yeah, I know those would fetch a crap ton! I know [[51525,users]] is looking for one of those as well and I'm looking for a Ult++ Rainbow Glaive! :D ;-) But I don't think the actual Moraggo Campaign will drop Ult/+/++ rewards(or the drop rate is probably next to impossible for these). Highest I've seen from pre-Sky City Shards Maps is probably Supreme Lemurians, but that's from Aquanos and I had a few of them. I haven't had a single Supreme(or higher) reward weapon from Misty and Moraggo, it's always Myth and/or Trans. Which I think is pretty reasonable considering these are already pretty low and end maps and important for progression. So their rewards for the difficulty they offer is good enough and they shouldn't be buffed as you can always find the map specific weapons on even higher quality in Survivals.

____________________________________________________________________________________

[[48136,users]] -- Yeah man, don't buff the Shards weapons and the other map rewards. They are important for progression and offer good stats and damage as it is for those levels. My main request is still mainly for considering a buff to SpoL, BoTN, etc. from WW/Silent Night.

As for older weapons that drop, buffing them would mess with the progression And balance of the original campaign up through insane which I think most agree is pretty good. It is possible to look at creating a new reward based on an old model though and have it as a reward on some new content.

That is a great idea actually! I wholeheartedly agree to keep the older reward weapons(pre-Shards/Misty/Moraggo/etc.) as they are, so it doesn't mess with progression and/or make them OP for those lower end difficulty levels, or for that matter in early NMHC.

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Also, Alhanalem -- You constantly keep talking about "reaching limits" w.r.t. stats, are you seriously under the impression that a majority of the current playerbase is at that limit and can steam-roll through the maps like the 1% top-end playerbase can?

I'm not under any impression that any number of people are at any particular point in the game, it has nothing to do with what I said. Where are you drawing this conclusion?

(I also don't even post that much and even less on this subject, so where does this "constantly keep talking" come from?
But to answer the quesiton, no, I'm absolutely not under any such impression. I am certainly not a top player with near maximum potential stats on my characters and I know that most people are not either. But as I said, I'm not sure what led you to believe otherwise.

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(sorry for the double post our forums suck)

And that is precisely what I said a few posts ago. If people are complaining NOW that Lab is too easy and too rewarding, they should've done so when it was released. But I guess back then the self-interest prevented as many people to make noise about it to have it fixed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but im pretty sure there were people critical of this when it was new. And there were probably others who realize that it was probably bad design, but didn't speak up because they were benefiting from it.


So we have people theatening to quit if lab is nerfed. I'm not sure if such people ahve considered the fact that other options are available or will become available to bridge progression. To those angry about the thought of this: Do you really find it fun to spam one and only one allegedly easy map to get the best gear?

I'm confused why people find it acceptable that a map seen by so many as so easy drops the best or near the best of almost anyhting in the game. We have people telling us that that they think the game is too easy, and then we have people urging us not to do anything that will make the game any harder. That puts the CDT between a rock and a hard place- even adding new content can potentitally impact difficulty in unexpected ways based on how the loot ends up dropping. I still feel bad about the incident when Tower Wars was added to the game and was dropping then-OP accessories even though they were supposed to have been removed by Trendy) and they were OP and so that forced them to add accessories of similar quality elsewhere in the game.

The questions I'm posing here are mainly philosophical in nature- It's up to you guys to decide if any solution to the perceived problem is acceptable. I certainly wouldn't want to make anyone upset here, but let me be frank: From a game design perspective, lab assault is terrible and majorly disrupted the flow of progression and weakened the game by surpassing most other farm options despite its comparatively weak difficulty. From a game design perspective, the proper way to address this or any other balance issue is to address the outlier- that is, strengthen the one thing that's too weak or weaken the one thing that's too strong. Not only is adjusting everything other than the outlier far more work, but it can box you into a position where you are forced to make an unfavorable decision because you can't go any higher/lower.

Let me use some other game for a game design example here. Let's say you're playing starcraft, and you've found that you can play Terran and beat anyone by just building a couple barracks and spamming Marines because they do so much damage.  Amongst three races and dozens of different units, marines dominate. Does it make the most sense to nerf the marines or buff everything else? and let's just say in this hypothetical scenario, it would take 5 minutes of a developer's time (not counting testing) to make the change to the marines, where as adjusting every unit in the game would take a full day of a developers time (a day that couldn't be spent fixing other bugs and issues). Even ignoring the amount of work, by changing so many other values, you risk breaking something else. So if you do th at, you could end up with Ultralisks being OP and Archons being too weak. Do we buff everything again and risk breaking even more stuff (just because people like buffs and dont like nerfs)?


I'd like to reiterate that I'm just commenting on this discussion. The will of the community is what matters, not what I think. All I can do is try to help people understand certain things and also understand how I personally feel about the subject, as a player of the game.

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[[19066,users]] -- No you are not wrong, people have been critical of Lab Assault in the past, I myself have been critical about it. But the thing is -- way too many were reaping the benefits of easy armor farming from Lab Assault to make enough noise to get it fixed when it was released. However as many have said in the thread including myself -- the time to get it fixed has passed and the way people have changed their play styles by focusing on Lab for gear it will be resulting in mass outrage(not from me, but I know a few who would be rather upset with that).
When I mention boosting survivals to the levels of Lab, I don't mean to imply that we have to boost Deeper Wells and Rampart and Endless Spires and Mistymire or literally every other map to drop OP gear. What I mean is, maps that are barely beatable with Lab farmed gear(there are a few) could use a boost in their survival, so that someone who is maxed out from Lab gear has an incentive to do some hard survivals and such and make the next jump beyond Lab Assault for gear.
So to put this in line with your analogy/example about Starcraft, Rather than buffing EVERY other unit from other classes/races, have 1 each be made to the level of the said Marine unit. (I've never played Starcraft, so i dunno what these units are, but you get the point). Yes, even then it will take a bit time compared to simply nerfing the Marine unit, but assuming its been 3 years to realize that the Marine unit it OP and only now it is being fixed doesn't blend in well.

As much as I want Lab loot to be reduced, I simply cannot support it in under the current circumstances where I'm still getting 53 mana Cursed and Godly items in my survival runs. 53 Mana garbage items need to say good bye from survival already.
 And when you mentioned in a couple of posts above that certain items are indeed added to be garbage so as to return mana at the end of survival wvaes; how many do you think would be needed to give me even 1 million mana considering that most of the garbage items are just 53 mana value? (Exaggerating this a bit, but you get it!) :D 

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If you read my last post, you'll find we already killed off the specific garbage inclusions. The garbage you are talking about is because the RNG gave it lots of negative stats, not because of some specific addition (and because of this, your chances of finding useful stuff doubled between 8.0 and 8.2)

@Black Mamba quote:

 And when you mentioned in a couple of posts above that certain items are indeed added to be garbage so as to return mana at the end of survival wvaes; how many do you think would be needed to give me even 1 million mana considering that most of the garbage items are just 53 mana value? (Exaggerating this a bit, but you get it!) :D 


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@a really cool uesrname quote:

may i ask are new heros and/or skins a posabillaty? will it might happen?

A possibility... maybe. It would require an astronomical amount of work to design the hero, defenses, balance, and determine which weapon(s) they would use.

I wouldn't remotely expect it, but if we have plans to make one, you guys would definitely be involved throughout the whole process. Personally I wouldn't mind another hero that uses minion units...

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I don't know. I guess it just bothers me that something that doesn't work as intended can't easily be fixed just because a certain unspoken amount of time has passed.

Yes, it's true that such issues should have been dealt with much sooner, but it doesn't make it less frustrating when you have the ability to address something but can't for reasons outside of capability.


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@Alhanalem quote:

I don't know. I guess it just bothers me that something that doesn't work as intended can't easily be fixed just because a certain unspoken amount of time has passed.

Yes, it's true that such issues should have been dealt with much sooner, but it doesn't make it less frustrating when you have the ability to address something but can't for reasons outside of capability.


I agree, however its not only just about the time though. It that much time, playstyles have severely changed for many people -- veterans and newcomers alike who get suggested Lab Assault for everything but weapons. And a large section of the community has seemingly abandoned Survival farming for armor in favour of a broken Lab Assault. What that has resulted in is the reverse of progression where in you'd ideally get low level stuff first to get high level stuff, but in this case you start with no stuff to get high level stuff to get other even higher stuff.
So yes, it is ridiculously broken, but the problem is 3 years is way too much time and Lab Assault has severely changed playstyles for people that any kind of nerf( or "FIX" would be a more appropriate word) or any kind of reduction in rewards or mainly the fixing of EVs' AI and pathing etc. would result in people not accepting those changes.
So in that scenario, what is the best we can do to make people aware that there are literally a hundred other things more to DD than just Lab Assault? Have these other things boosted to make them on a level-playing field as Lab. Of course buffing something isn't always the right response to something that is OP like you said, but what really can be done so that there is a consensus along the community regarding Lab Assault. 
In this thread itself half-a-dozen people have supported in one way or the other to make survivals more enticing in terms of quality of loot so that it presents a good, heck a better alternative to Lab Assault.

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@gigazelle quote:


@a really cool uesrname quote:

may i ask are new heros and/or skins a posabillaty? will it might happen?

A possibility... maybe. It would require an astronomical amount of work to design the hero, defenses, balance, and determine which weapon(s) they would use.

I wouldn't remotely expect it, but if we have plans to make one, you guys would definitely be involved throughout the whole process. Personally I wouldn't mind another hero that uses minion units...


what about more hero skins?  

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@a really cool uesrname quote:

what about more hero skins?  

Also a possibility. Right now the current obstacle that we are facing is that we are dealing with a rather outdated engine, using different 3D modeling tools than what Trendy used originally. I'm currently working with other CDT members to see if we can use new models with existing bone structures. It's still a work in progress, and if we get it working, i have more than just new skins in mind :)

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@gigazelle quote:

Also a possibility. Right now the current obstacle that we are facing is that we are dealing with a rather outdated engine, using different 3D modeling tools than what Trendy used originally. I'm currently working with other CDT members to see if we can use new models with existing bone structures. It's still a work in progress, and if we get it working, i have more than just new skins in mind :)

welll if you do need skin or/and hero ideas i am 100% shere that if you make a post about it here you will get a lot of ideas

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@EV AI thing:

It's well known that the EV bot behavior is ridiculously dumb. :p  I"m actually not sure if it is improvable. But hypothetically, let's just say we could. How do you think people would react if the EVs were smartened up a bit (e.g. don't commit suicide as readily) and also adjusted the time limit upward to compensate for the reduction in stupidity? I would think that would make the experience a little more fun, personally. But I could also forsee people not liking it taking any longer even if the actual difficulty doesnt change. Just random thoughts, really. Totally hypothetical, as I tend to ramble.

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@Alhanalem quote:

@EV AI thing:

It's well known that the EV bot behavior is ridiculously dumb. :p  I"m actually not sure if it is improvable. But hypothetically, let's just say we could. How do you think people would react if the EVs were smartened up a bit (e.g. don't commit suicide as readily) and also adjusted the time limit upward to compensate for the reduction in stupidity? I would think that would make the experience a little more fun, personally. But I could also forsee people not liking it taking any longer even if the actual difficulty doesnt change. Just random thoughts, really. Totally hypothetical, as I tend to ramble.

Based on what I'm hearing about nerfing the rewards from LA, I'm inclined to think people wont care for it.  If the community is so ingrained in the easy farmable exploits, I don't see an adjustment like that being well received.  Personally I'd be all for it, as it's fixing something that shouldn't be happening, but we'll have to see I suppose.

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@Valthejean quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

@EV AI thing:

It's well known that the EV bot behavior is ridiculously dumb. :p  I"m actually not sure if it is improvable. But hypothetically, let's just say we could. How do you think people would react if the EVs were smartened up a bit (e.g. don't commit suicide as readily) and also adjusted the time limit upward to compensate for the reduction in stupidity? I would think that would make the experience a little more fun, personally. But I could also forsee people not liking it taking any longer even if the actual difficulty doesnt change. Just random thoughts, really. Totally hypothetical, as I tend to ramble.

Based on what I'm hearing about nerfing the rewards from LA, I'm inclined to think people wont care for it.  If the community is so ingrained in the easy farmable exploits, I don't see an adjustment like that being well received.  Personally I'd be all for it, as it's fixing something that shouldn't be happening, but we'll have to see I suppose.

+1


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