Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ddace

CDT Update 3 Discussions Incoming!! We Need Your Input!!

Recommended Posts

g_cracka88 -- Here's thing about BF Drill, before me and some others found out about the BF Drill method at around the same time(not taking credit for Drill method), but before that I was running Lab by using Clavas with 100+ Charge Speed and 70+ Knockback Stat, and used those to break the Crystals, the path was more or less the same for me. The thumping down with Staff would deal decent AOE damage but would take maybe a minute longer than BF Drills to get all the crystals, depending on your weapons base damage and such.

As far as Dealing with the EVs is concerned, at certain locations of the map, they just fall of from the conveyor belt by themselves without having to hit them. The rest you can make to fall off by using Staff Thump(i.e. the right-click/alternate attack for Staff) which is already kind of like BF Drills but slightly less range. No difference whatsoever.

So even if BF Drills get nerfed, you can expect maybe 2-3 minutes of increased completion time. Which means there would be no difference in how Lab is run with BF Drills or without it as it will still reward the same stuff, but by taking 2-3 mins longer. Not to mention the fact that LITERALLY no one used to play Volcanic Eruption, until people figured out about the BF Drills in Lab. So now if we nerf BF Drills, we will have a map that no one plays, again.

I've always been against nerfs simply becasue if you nerf something, you are making it obsolete without providing an alternative to it, and in doing so something somewhere gets crazy OP. I remember Lupine Bows(Van Wolf specifically) got nerfed shortly after they were released. They only became viable with the release of EV and Jesters who could use more than 2 weapons at a time one for upgrading and another for DPS. The Retribution(Sicarius variant but physical damage) from Assault Pack 1 got nerfed, and people stopped playing that map immedieately becasue there was no incentive to farm an nerfed gun. Same will happen with Volcanic Eruption if BF Drills are nerfed. Rarely anyone uses Stone Throwers(I do, but not on main characters) despite them being actually the best ranged monk weapons, but lower stats. So the nerfing of BF Drill will make Volcanic Eruption challenge obsolete, once again.

I'd much rather have Lab and BF Drills left the way they are and have other Survival runs etc. drop better stuff than Lab so people who want upgrades from their current Lab farmed armor can do Survivals, and those who want just the gear to move up into progression ladder can keep doing Lab Assault. It's a win-win for everyone if high end Survivals stop dropping Myth and lower after Wave 23.


Now as far as Shards Maps are considered, Sky City is the last one and pretty high end, and it used to drop 1 or 2 Supreme pieces each run when I used to play it. Right now it's not even dropping enough Trans pieces to justify running it other than getting the Propeller Cat. I can't say much about Moraggo becasue I've never done it past the Donkey Wave. Aquanos is a perfect balance between high-end myth to medium-high end trans armor if people are looking for alternatives. Mistymire is a perfect starting point for someone who just got till level 74-75 and wants to get some Trans armor they'd use after reaching level 78.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, you don't really need the BF Drill to beat Lab.

This is what I used to do back in the day with my trusty Obsidian Clava. Ignore the jump on the ESTs, they are broken atm so I use them to save a few seconds, otherwise the path is via the conveyor belt how it should be normally.

Also ignore my Ember Spectre, as you can do this with literally any other Apprentice weapon as long as it has a good charge speed(70+), Around 35k+ weapon damage(base/generic) and 85+ Knockback damage(hard-cap) since Knockback doesn't probably scale with elemental so Bloodshots and Bone staffs are kinda useless, unless you have a Rainmaker(which is dumb OP).

I'll give this a try with my 322^ Fusion Rift, it has -102 Knockback so I'll have to waste some upgrades in that, but whatever.

Video is a 2x speed, no audio, nothing. Enjoy!





Point is -- as you can see there is clearly no need to nerf the BF Drill. It's just a simple AI thing with the EVs, nothing else.
I still don't think it should be changed though, just make other survival runs drop better armor than Lab, and some map specific weapons & accessory rewards. Simple as that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The th ing is, we're effectively nearing a ceiling as far as how high we can take stats on gear. if LA were to be nerfed, even a little, it would mean more other maps are viable to play. It would be difficult to make other things better enough for people to care. It's not really good balance policy to buff everything else when one thing is OP, either. Of course there are other options that arent loot related, such as increasing the difficulty of LA instead of reducing the loot.

Obviously if everyone opposes this we can't really do it, but I would implore people to consider what would be good for the long term rather than what benefits them immediately.



It's a win-win for everyone if high end Survivals stop dropping Myth and lower after Wave 23.

Just for informational purposes- The loot rolling system (for dropped loot) is based on a system of scalars (multipliers) and other numbers plus a bit of RNG that combine to determine potential drops. We can't just say "On wave X, only this that or the other loot can drop."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Alhanalem quote:

Just for informational purposes- The loot rolling system (for dropped loot) is based on a system of scalars (multipliers) and other numbers plus a bit of RNG that combine to determine potential drops. We can't just say "On wave X, only this that or the other loot can drop."

Couldn't you just add a function that says "if the roll lands below x quality, throw it out and reroll?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Caimen0 quote:



@Alhanalem quote:

Just for informational purposes- The loot rolling system (for dropped loot) is based on a system of scalars (multipliers) and other numbers plus a bit of RNG that combine to determine potential drops. We can't just say "On wave X, only this that or the other loot can drop."

Couldn't you just add a function that says "if the roll lands below x quality, throw it out and reroll?"

conceivably possible but not as simple as it sounds on paper. Remember also that the loot system is deisnged to throw some basically certain garbage in there. You can't have every piece of loot be awesome. The garbage loot generates mana for you, so it's not without purpose.

It probably wouldn't be difficult, for instance, to increase the rate at w hich the quality multipliers increase when a wave is reached, but that wouldn't guarantee the quality of anything, only increase the maximum potential. I am not an unrealScripter but that can be done in Kismet (the in-editor event scripting system) so I know that's techncially possible. But you have to be careful when you mess with these numbers, as it's easy to cause unintended results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To be fair, for a lot of people anything below supreme (somtimes even ult) armor is basically garbage unless they are specifically looking to gear some for fun character and would go to mana anyway. Not saying maps should only drop ult and above, just putting it out there. (Personally I think godly shouldn't ever spawn in any map above Glitterhelm on nightmare, but that's just one man's opinion)

What this also does not do is guarantee you get what you want. You can get as much ult++ as you want, but if none of it has positive tower damage, you can't well make a tower character out of it. All this does is remove the low quality garbage as opposed to the high quality garbage. (lol "high-quality garbage")



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the low rolling loot was a specific inclusion, that was something that could be removed quite simply.

Putting a lower bound on the current loot generator is just not feasible. It would essentially mean generating atleast 10 times more loot per wave (dependant on the threshold, but most likely much higher...). If you get 1 supreme per wave on average, we'd have to toss something on the order of a thousand items just to generate 1 more.

In short:

To clamp generated items to a minimum quality by tossing loot, you require a dramatic increase in the number of items generated . If we estimate supreme as being 1 in 1000 and there are 1000 items generated in that wave, we would be generating 1,000,000 items for that same wave.


Since that's quite obviously out of the question, we're left with a rewrite of item generation. As much as I'd love to do that, that's just asking for trouble in more ways than one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying I want Supremes or higher every wave. Obviously not, that would be dumb and OP. But, I've done almost 5 runs in 2-3 days now, and the story has been more or less the same as in the picture below. Last few waves(23/24 onwards) dropping lesser and lesser Trans(forget anything higher) and more Cursed/Godly Items. I can only see 3 Trans pieces on the map. And you can clearly see it's almost end wave, with hardly any mobs left. So even less chances of getting anything.
This surely wasn't the case when I used to play a few years back, becasue I've farmed this map a lot for my current sup/ult gear.
dNrq9Ju.jpg

What I'm saying is prior to CDT taking over I used a crap ton of Trans and 1-2 Supremes or a rare ult in 4-5 Sky City full survival runs starting off from wave 19/20. But right now I'm even struggling to get enough Trans armor to convince myself from doing Survival. One or 2 full runs I can understand that it might be my bad-luck with RNG, but CONSISTENTLY getting garbage upon garbage in 4-5 runs is not bad-luck. It just messed up. Moreover, if I switch to a class other than Summoner, I hardly get more than 4-5 armor pieces. The entire map is just filled with trashy weapons. So even that has been broken. I dunno how these changes went through, looks like no testing was done.



Then if you talk about nerfing Lab, where am I supposed to go to get gear? Survivals are dropping garbage, and if Lab gets nerfed, you tell me what is left to farm other than Moonbase, Akatiti and Embermount for weapons. Surely no one needs armor, right? And not everyone has 5-6k Supreme or higher sets like most of us here that having a significant slowdown in getting gear will not affect us. And sooner or later some select few with 7-8k stats will make noise that Akatiti, Moonbase and Embermount are easy as well so nerf their reward drops too. Keep nerfing everything if that's what your policy towards balancing is. I don't consider Lab to be OP, its just that the other Shards Maps drop garbage stuff in comparison to Lab which gives an illusion that it is OP.

And the way I see it, you(CDT in general) are not considering people struggling with progression etc. when you decide to nerf things or change around numbers at your liking. Right now you are only catering to a select few with 6-7-8k stats who make the most noise about how maps are easy. Of course maps are easy for anyone with 5k+ stats, does that mean everyone who isn't making a noise is in agreement with the guys saying maps are easy? Pretty sure its not like that.

Vocal minority on forums IS NOT AN ACCURATE INDICATION of how many players are actively playing the game, it can never be. I can see the same users making noise about things being easy, and you guys keep catering to them without giving a second thought about the majority of players who get shafted again and again. This is surely not how Trendy tackled the game w.r.t. balancing.

Now, when I speak in favor of Lab Assault(kind of) -- I'm considering an average player in this scenario who has just leveled up his builders through grinding and DPS chars to 74-78 and looking to get into NMHC. With Golden enemies broken, survival drops broken and a Lab now nerfed, where shall that player go to get armor? You tell me. You are free to nerf Lab and other things if you have decided to drive away players from the game and discourage anyone willing to make a return as well. And just keep catering to those 1% at the top.


Also, Alhanalem -- You constantly keep talking about "reaching limits" w.r.t. stats, are you seriously under the impression that a majority of the current playerbase is at that limit and can steam-roll through the maps like the 1% top-end playerbase can? Besides, I don't understand how having a stat limit has got absolutely anything to do with maps dropping garbage gear and giving players no other option than to farm as certain set of map. When I mention "buff" something, I don't mean it to be made OP. More like have survival runs on a level-playing field when compared to Lab. And given the time and difficulty of Survival maps, there won't be any balance issues w.r.t. to gear drops.


Also, it may appear that my tone in this post is harsh/aggressive, but I assure you I mean no disrespect to anyone whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@CrzyRndm quote:

Since the low rolling loot was a specific inclusion, that was something that could be removed quite simply.

Could you please explain what this means?

Were rubbish low rolling items added (in addition to existing drops) so as to provide mana when they are sold? If so, can we check that they are not replacing the potential to drop decent gear too.

Or were low rolling items specifically included to dilute/nerf/spice up the range of potential drops. If so then yes I would suggest considering their removal.

@CrzyRndm quote:


@CrzyRndm quote:

Since that's quite obviously out of the question, we're left with a rewrite of item generation. As much as I'd love to do that, that's just asking for trouble in more ways than one.

Not being a coder I can imagine that this must be risky (hence my reluctance to fully support boosts to drops in other specific maps) but surely worth a look or risk losing one form of the game almost entirely.


Also, as I am quoting you you will almost certainly see this. Is there any chance of an insight into the effect of playing Survivals with more than one hero? Much appreciated if that is possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

I'm not saying I want Supremes or higher every wave. Obviously not, that would be dumb and OP. But, I've done almost 5 runs in 2-3 days now, and the story has been more or less the same as in the picture below. Last few waves(23/24 onwards) dropping lesser and lesser Trans(forget anything higher) and more Cursed/Godly Items. I can only see 3 Trans pieces on the map. And you can clearly see it's almost end wave, with hardly any mobs left. So even less chances of getting anything.
This surely wasn't the case when I used to play a few years back, becasue I've farmed this map a lot for my current sup/ult gear.
dNrq9Ju.jpg

What I'm saying is prior to CDT taking over I used a crap ton of Trans and 1-2 Supremes or a rare ult in 4-5 Sky City full survival runs starting off from wave 19/20. But right now I'm even struggling to get enough Trans armor to convince myself from doing Survival. One or 2 full runs I can understand that it might be my bad-luck with RNG, but CONSISTENTLY getting garbage upon garbage in 4-5 runs is not bad-luck. It just messed up. Moreover, if I switch to a class other than Summoner, I hardly get more than 4-5 armor pieces. The entire map is just filled with trashy weapons. So even that has been broken. I dunno how these changes went through, looks like no testing was done.



Then if you talk about nerfing Lab, where am I supposed to go to get gear? Survivals are dropping garbage, and if Lab gets nerfed, you tell me what is left to farm other than Moonbase, Akatiti and Embermount for weapons. Surely no one needs armor, right? And not everyone has 5-6k Supreme or higher sets like most of us here that having a significant slowdown in getting gear will not affect us. And sooner or later some select few with 7-8k stats will make noise that Akatiti, Moonbase and Embermount are easy as well so nerf their reward drops too. Keep nerfing everything if that's what your policy towards balancing is. I don't consider Lab to be OP, its just that the other Shards Maps drop garbage stuff in comparison to Lab which gives an illusion that it is OP.

And the way I see it, you(CDT in general) are not considering people struggling with progression etc. when you decide to nerf things or change around numbers at your liking. Right now you are only catering to a select few with 6-7-8k stats who make the most noise about how maps are easy. Of course maps are easy for anyone with 5k+ stats, does that mean everyone who isn't making a noise is in agreement with the guys saying maps are easy? Pretty sure its not like that.

Vocal minority on forums IS NOT AN ACCURATE INDICATION of how many players are actively playing the game, it can never be. I can see the same users making noise about things being easy, and you guys keep catering to them without giving a second thought about the majority of players who get shafted again and again. This is surely not how Trendy tackled the game w.r.t. balancing.

Now, when I speak in favor of Lab Assault(kind of) -- I'm considering an average player in this scenario who has just leveled up his builders through grinding and DPS chars to 74-78 and looking to get into NMHC. With Golden enemies broken, survival drops broken and a Lab now nerfed, where shall that player go to get armor? You tell me. You are free to nerf Lab and other things if you have decided to drive away players from the game and discourage anyone willing to make a return as well. And just keep catering to those 1% at the top.


Also, Alhanalem -- You constantly keep talking about "reaching limits" w.r.t. stats, are you seriously under the impression that a majority of the current playerbase is at that limit and can steam-roll through the maps like the 1% top-end playerbase can? Besides, I don't understand how having a stat limit has got absolutely anything to do with maps dropping garbage gear and giving players no other option than to farm as certain set of map. When I mention "buff" something, I don't mean it to be made OP. More like have survival runs on a level-playing field when compared to Lab. And given the time and difficulty of Survival maps, there won't be any balance issues w.r.t. to gear drops.


Also, it may appear that my tone in this post is harsh/aggressive, but I assure you I mean no disrespect to anyone whatsoever.

I Freakin love you Mamba you've said everything that was in my mind 100% AGREE 

i mean the only map that i farm for armor is lab nothing more cuz ik that i will get only Garbage in survival 

If the CDT going to Nerf lab assault let us know so i can quit the game from now (just like pew pew pew did)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Black Mamba quote:In my 2 Sky City Runs (post wave 23 as 2x Summoner) I had ZERO Supreme armor dropped, forget Ults. And a grand total of 9 Trans armor dropped, yes 9 after wave 23. Rest EVERYTHING was Myth(regardless of how high end) and CURSED Armor for crying out loud. Cursed armor on NMHC Survival runs DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!! If I wanted Cursed Armor, I'd go and do Lab a few times. I get plenty there everyday, I don't need Cursed Armor from NMHC Survivals.

If you run a map with more mobs per wave (like WW), you probably won't find much cursed armor, since it'll usually despawn by the end of the wave.  You'll also get a lot more ult :)  I've gotten ult++ on WW NMHCMM since the update, so you can definitely still get good items in 8.2. 

My feeling is that good ult is a little less common now, but survival goes a lot faster (4-5 minutes per wave on WW), so you can do more runs in the same amount of time and it balances out.  I'm not sure if that's really accurate, since I'd have to run a very large number of survivals to figure it out (RNG varies so much), but that's my impression at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • I would love to change LA so EV's don't commit suicide, that way it becomes the challenge it was designed to be.
  • I would also love to fix the genie proc bug, that way the progression of upgrading defenses goes back to the way it was designed to be.
  • I would also love to fix minion and tower stacking, as that would bring us back to how defense placement was designed to be.
  • And while we're at it, let's give each summoner their own MU, make all minions despawn (or phase shift) if they change character, and have them not affected by buff beams. That way, we go back to the way summoner was designed to be played - dealing hero damage RTS-style.

Even though I'd really like these changes to happen, I seriously doubt any of them will get any traction (and if they do, will face a lot of opposition):

  • LA gives players an easy way to exploit their way into semi-late game gear. Grind enough labs, get a few trans armor sets, beat almost any other map. Taking away easy progression is not going to be generally favored. The opportunity to fix this should have been by Trendy immediately after release years ago; anything the CDT does to touch this is going to literally start a riot.
  • The genie proc bug was reverted since people are so reliant on quickly upgrading defenses. Again, having less mana (particularly not having maxed buff beams first wave) is not favored by many. The CDT represents the community, so if the community wants to keep an exploit, we keep it.
  • Some builds are reliant on minion stacking, and, well, we've seen what happens when we break people's builds so they no longer work (COUGH-DST-COUGH).
  • The way summoner was designed to be played was a fun alternative way to play Dungeon Defenders, but why have an RTS playstyle when you can have self-healing walls that shoot?

In short, the CDT is very wary of touching controversial points, but even then some tweaks we make are met with outcry. If there's anything controversial that the community wants fixed, there is going to have to be very heavy one-sided support in fixing it. Since all of the above bullet points are very divisive topics, it will be a miracle if we get the support to bring those game mechanics back to how they were originally designed. I would argue it would make the game more fun and balanced, but others' equally valid opinions will 100% disagree, and their opinions hold just as much water as mine.

Dungeon Defenders is a game with a lot of quirks (and exploits). The CDT does everything possible to make future updates a positive experience, and that's best achieved by making QoL improvements, new content, and minor tweaks. Sweeping changes, no matter how good, will destroy the community inside-out, and that's a tough pill I've had to swallow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[[31834,users]] -- Good points. However, I disagree with the Summoner point you made, simply becasue it is Trendy who decided to make Summoner a primary tower-builder for NMHC by having other builders gimped in NMHC. Maybe if you can clear all the Shards Maps and the new maps without using Summoner Minions on NMHC, then I'll wholeheartedly agree on your point about the Summoner. The way I see it, NMHC requires complex tower-building strategies as compared to other difficulties wherein you can quite possibly clear a set of maps by using 3 or less tower-builders.

The opportunity to fix this should have been by Trendy immediately after release years ago; anything the CDT does to touch this is going to literally start a riot.

And that is precisely what I said a few posts ago. If people are complaining NOW that Lab is too easy and too rewarding, they should've done so when it was released. But I guess back then the self-interest prevented as many people to make noise about it to have it fixed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And, after 3 years one can't come up and suddenly say -- "Hey guys, took me and my buddies 3 years to realize that Lab is too easy to farm for gear. While I've farmed it over 9000 times and reaped all the free and effortless gear, I now wish to have it nerfed so that others can't reap the fruits of Lab Assault as easily as I did." 
That is simply not happening.

As much as I appreciate what CDT is doing and has done for the game, I and many others who have voiced their opinions have issues with certain core mechanics of the game being tweaked with. A few being loot drops and Golden enemies. While personally for me Golden Enemies other than Wyverns haven't been a game-breaking issue, given my 5-6k stats. But that is not the case with an average Joe. I am all for making Goldens slightly stronger than they were prior to this update, but having them behave differently and not go balls-out at blazing speed totally ignoring anything in their path and 1hko-ing the crystals.
Granted my (kind of)rant was limited to one map survival run, so I'm willing to give other maps a try, a few that Acen has suggested. But I'll be going in with lowered expectations given my disappointing and waste of time runs in Sky City. I may end up being corrected that it is only a Sky City issue, right now. But let's see.

IMO CDT should focus more on even better QoL changes. There are multiple good QoL suggestions in this thread itself that need to be taken into consideration. A few being -- ability to manually drop and place items on floor at a desired location rather than picking and dropping again and again. Ability to set item prices in Shop folders at once and many more.
But having said that, thanks to CDT for everything in this aspect thus far, especially with renaming items lock/unlock all buttons, etc.!

Also focus on bringing certain maps on a level-playing field with Lab Assault so that there is a viable option for people to play other maps than Lab Assault rather than nerfing it outright. I'm sure many might be willing to give a try to other maps for a change from doing mindless Lab Assault Runs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

IMO CDT should focus more on even better QoL changes


I personally find this  to be the most important take away from the post. At this point, the CDT has fixed most of the bugs that I notice on a regular basis that legitimately hurt gameplay. The remaining bugs (genies, Lab, etc.) have a huge impact on gameplay, and "fixing" them at this point is removing an avenue of progression from the game as they are considered mechanics, not bugs, at this point. Don't focus on those. They have been touched on before to very negative response and pushing them further will only alienate the community. Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.


Look at things like renaming and the changes to staff charge rate, huntress weapon stat fixes, etc. Very needed QoL changes that absolutely nobody could possibly complain about. More of the things that make farming less painful and add more customization to gameplay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd argue that the original design of many things in the game and their resulting implementation were very far off; this is due to the person designing gameplay elements were not the same people who built the enemy schedules. This is why I believe the summoner wasn't originally intended to play as "double DU", but the shard enemy spam on every map made it a necessity.

This is also why there's now an option to turn off enemy announcements; when they were originally designed, only a few per wave were intended so the player could personally take care of them. Gold enemies were supposed to be punishing for leaving Djinn alive. Moved defenses were supposed to be punishing for leaving Sharken alive. But, the person building enemy schedules had a different plan in mind and decided to saturate every map with them to artificially crank up the difficulty. There's no way to deal with every shard enemy personally, so now you're punished for not using gas traps, aura stacks and minion walls.

Summoner was originally going to be the RTS hero - that's the way it was advertised. But, due to bad enemy and difficulty implementation, it became the "self healing shooting wall" builder. I would love so bad to make sweeping changes to the game's difficulty in rebalancing enemies and properly make shard enemies actual threats as opposed to enemy spam that's negated by gas traps and minion walls. But it won't happen; perhaps we can save that for a new difficulty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

If people are complaining NOW that Lab is too easy and too rewarding, they should've done so when it was released.

And, after 3 years one can't come up and suddenly say -- "Hey guys, took me and my buddies 3 years to realize that Lab is too easy to farm for gear.

People have been calling for lab to be nerfed for years. It is not a new suggestion that a tower defence game requires on tower defence maps for progression.

I would still prefer to see the other maps boosted in terms of drops so that players can effectively progress through tower defence playing tower defence maps but like you say everyone wants to keep it as a short cut. Why grind tower defence in a tower defence game when you can just run a two minute map and get great gear.

I played a lot of lab ( plenty of Akatti, Sky, WW too) and ultimately it probably spoiled my DD experience. I would have had more fun if I could have effectively geared my heroes by playing Survival maps. This is why I would, firstly, like to see Survivals boosted to be at least at Lab levels.

Since coming back I have not touched lab and remain unlikely to do so. However, seeing vets like you and kg still running it for amor means I shall have to consider further my assumption that most players with mid to high hours in the game wanted lab nerfed to close an exploit and return to a tower defence game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Caimen0 -- Agreed 100%. I came back to the game after the 8.2 update, and I was thoroughly satisfied with most of the changes in terms of UI, inventory management and QoL improvements that have been put in place. We need more of those, and less of messing around with "bugs" and "exploits". Thing is, these exploits have been a part of the game for so long that its near impossible to do away with and avoid rioting! And new content is always welcome! So I thank CDT for that.

What I'd like is a dedicated sticky thread from CDT for asking more QoL improvements and such.
This thread gets overloaded with a lot of other suggestions and arguments about game balancing etc. that the actual and valuable QoL suggestions made by people get completely ignored.
I'm willing to go through the entire thread and summarize the QoL related suggestions made by people and list them in a proper formatted manner if a dedicated thread is being made for QoL.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

mkjo -- I've never ran lab for armor, even since its release 3 years back! You can take my word for it! If I would've ran it for armor, most of my alternate builders(and a couple of mains) would also be in Sup/Ult capping gear and not the Trans double-capping and low end Supremes ones they are in right now! So when I mentioned Lab for Armor, I was using it as an option to farm gear in my example -- by keeping in mind someone else who is struggling with progression, given the current state of survival on some maps.
I think you misunderstood that I actually run Lab myself for armor, mostly I do it for bracers and masks, but I'm maxed out on those as well! And I don't think anyone who has been with the game since launch would argue that Lab is functioning properly, when it is clear that it isn't! And it is not meant to drop better gear than survival.

I've been on the same boat about Lab to be fixed since its release. But the thing is, Trendy didn't do it when they had the time, people made noise, but it wasn't loud and consistent enough to force Trendy to lower the rewards for Lab. Yes, there would've been outrage back then as well, but it would've been more or less like the Van Wolfs & Retribution nerf kind of outrage, i.e. for a week max, then everything and everyone(more or less) would return to normal.
But NOW -- 3 years is way too much time to wait for a Lab fix. And people have farmed Lab through hell and beyond and hoarded up so much ult/+/++ gear that having it nerfed now would be kind of a shaft to literally everyone who wasn't around while Lab was too rewarding.


As you mentioned -- you too would like to see Survivals boosted to be at Lab levels in terms of rewards -- that's exactly the point I've been making all along. IMO, high-end survivals(Sky-City, WW, Akatiti, Tinkerer's, etc.) should ALWAYS drop better gear than Lab, becasue they require actual effort and not exploiting the AI. And I've been against Lab since long becasue it totally ruined my ToL/WW farm for accessories becasue of the ridiculous amount of accessories that Lab offered. It literally, single-handily crashed the entire pets, accessories and armor economy beyond recovery.

Since there is a huge controversy in nerfing Lab now, it's just better for everyone to having Survivals drop gear frequently and much like Lab, or better. I'd still do Sky-City/KG/Aquanos, etc. Survivals even if I'm getting jack*** from there becasue they are fun.

If someone had better luck on other survival maps, please let me know -- Plane has suggested that WW drops good gear consistently, and Acen has told me that KG is currently better than Sky-City and this problem of having crap-loot could be related to fewer number of mobs on that map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

Caimen0 -- Agreed 100%. I came back to the game after the 8.2 update, and I was thoroughly satisfied with most of the changes in terms of UI, inventory management and QoL improvements that have been put in place. We need more of those, and less of messing around with "bugs" and "exploits". Thing is, these exploits have been a part of the game for so long that its near impossible to do away with and avoid rioting! And new content is always welcome! So I thank CDT for that.

What I'd like is a dedicated sticky thread from CDT for asking more QoL improvements and such.
This thread gets overloaded with a lot of other suggestions and arguments about game balancing etc. that the actual and valuable QoL suggestions made by people get completely ignored.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

mkjo -- I've never ran lab for armor, even since its release 3 years back! You can take my word for it! If I would've ran it for armor, most of my alternate builders would also be in sup/ult capping gear and the the Trans double-capping ones they are in! So when I mentioned Lab for Armor, I was using it as an option to farm gear in my example -- by keeping in mind someone else who is struggling with progression, given the current state of survival on some maps.
I think you misunderstood that I actually run Lab myself for armor, mostly I do it for bracers and masks, but I'm maxed out on those as well! And I don't think anyone who has been with the game since launch would argue that Lab is functioning properly, when it is clear that it isn't! And it is not meant to drop better gear than survival.

I've been on the same boat about Lab to be fixed since its release. But the thing is, Trendy didn't do it when they had the time, people made noise, but it wasn't loud and consistent enough to force Trendy to lower the rewards for Lab. Yes, there would've been outrage back then as well, but it would've been more or less like the Van Wolfs & Retribution nerf kind of outrage, i.e. for a week max, then everything and everyone(more or less) would return to normal.
But NOW -- 3 years is way too much time to wait for a Lab fix. And people have farmed Lab through hell and beyond and hoarded up so much ult/+/++ gear that having it nerfed now would be kind of a shaft to literally everyone who wasn't around while Lab was too rewarding.


As you mentioned -- you too would like to see Survivals boosted to be at Lab levels in terms of rewards -- that's exactly the point I've been making all along. IMO, high-end survivals(Sky-City, WW, Akatiti, Tinkerer's, etc.) should ALWAYS drop better gear than Lab, becasue they require actual effort and not exploiting the AI. And I've been against Lab since long becasue it totally ruined my ToL/WW farm for accessories becasue of the ridiculous amount of accessories that Lab offered. It literally, single-handily crashed the entire pets, accessories and armor economy beyond recovery.

Since there is a huge controversy in nerfing Lab now, it's just better for everyone to having Survivals drop gear frequently and much like Lab, or better. I'd still do Sky-City/KG/Aquanos, etc. Survivals even if I'm getting jack*** from there becasue they are fun.

If someone had better luck on other survival maps, please let me know -- Plane has suggested that WW drops good gear consistently, and Acen has told me that KG is currently better than Sky-City and this problem of having crap-loot could be related to fewer number of mobs on that map.

i Agree with you mamba 

but the thing is other maps than lab assault for acc and armor Especially acc is 100% crap that's why alot of ppl prefer lab and i'm one of them i mean have you ever seen an acc drop :/ even the rewards are not good at all 

But i see your point that you them to boost the other maps to be like lab or even better or at least be worthy of farming survival for armor and acc and i also agree with you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, survival accessory drops are pretty low-stats and have been like that since they(accessories) were released. You'll usually find map dropped accessories with +2 +7 +4 stats and such, essentially Worn, Torn, Sturdy and Stocky qualities, Godly if you are lucky but don't expect stat levels like from Lab.


I might be in the minority about this -- but my view has always been that accessories were never meant to be as a means to get better stats, but more to offer looks and customization and a slight addition to stats. Which is one of the primary reasons I refuse to use dumb Santa Beards on my active DPS/Support characters. 150-100 Less stats won't make a difference for me and I'd much rather prefer my characters look good and dashing with fewer stats than look dumb and fugly with slightly more stats! :D
But that's just me! :D

Although times change and so now accessories have become pretty much a mainstream source of getting more stats and are not limited to looks and customization alone. And I've fallen for this myself as my builders(most of them) have Santa Beards, as much as I'd like to swap those off!
Which is why I'm now focusing on Pirate Invasion becasue the Eye Patches look promising in terms of stats and looks. And I can hopefully farm enough to have the Santa Beards from my builders replaced! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A reply to a general theme coming from Black Mamba over the last few days re loot quality in survivals

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) CDT Nerfing floor drops
I mentioned this above and [[49571,users]] queried me on it so I'll be as clear as I know how to be. Half of the loot generated priot to CDT update 2 for any floor drop was guranteed to be useless. Prior to any stat randomisation, there was a check that basically said "do I even bother applying map/wave multipliers to this". Items that came out on the bad side of that check had at most 6 (for weapons) or 10 (armour) in each and every hero stat.

That check is now disabled in nightmare. Between 8.0 and 8.2, we effectively doubled the amount of loot being generated that has a chance at being useful (and runs across multiple maps on each version back this up in drop rates)

Now, it is possible CDT update 2 included an unintentional reduction in drop rates (there was an unintentional increase in 8.1 so people playing across the two probably wouldn't notice the switch as they had very similar levels of effect) and that possibility has not yet been ruled out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Drop rates trailing off after ~W25
This one I know exactly where to pin. Upgrades rolling over once the multipliers get high enough. The idea of a peak wave has been known and a proven issue since atleast the days of Aquanos (delayed probably only because morrago survival was a PITA back then and not as commonly run until well after its release).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Armour drop rates / dissapearing early

We do seem to have a problem here. It's always been bad, but the levels which are being demonstrated repeatedly are opposing what several changes in update 2 were aimed at achieving. We are currently investigating why armour doesn't want to stick around even though every indicator is that it should be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personal note:

IMO the examples you provided of weapons being nerfed were very very required at the time. I remember the retribution in particular initially being a no brainer upgrade on a top end myth skullbow or disc thrower when it had half or less the upgrades. That thing deserved all the nerfs it got (It was still useful once they finally got it under control, just not quite so blatant...) although with aqua the "special" rewards theme started and generic weapons were written off...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@CrzyRndm quote:

A reply to a general theme coming from Black Mamba over the last few days re loot quality in survivals

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) CDT Nerfing floor drops
I mentioned this above and mkjo queried me on it so I'll be as clear as I know how to be. Half of the loot generated priot to CDT update 2 for any floor drop was guranteed to be useless. Prior to any stat randomisation, there was a check that basically said "do I even bother applying map/wave multipliers to this". Items that came out on the bad side of that check had at most 6 (for weapons) or 10 (armour) in each and every hero stat.

That check is now disabled in nightmare. Between 8.0 and 8.2, we effectively doubled the amount of loot being generated that has a chance at being useful (and runs across multiple maps on each version back this up in drop rates)

Now, it is possible CDT update 2 included an unintentional reduction in drop rates (there was an unintentional increase in 8.1 so people playing across the two probably wouldn't notice the switch as they had very similar levels of effect) and that possibility has not yet been ruled out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Drop rates trailing off after ~W25
This one I know exactly where to pin. Upgrades rolling over once the multipliers get high enough. The idea of a peak wave has been known and a proven issue since atleast the days of Aquanos (delayed probably only because morrago survival was a PITA back then and not as commonly run until well after its release).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Armour drop rates / dissapearing early

We do seem to have a problem here. It's always been bad, but the levels which are being demonstrated repeatedly are opposing what several changes in update 2 were aimed at achieving. We are currently investigating why armour doesn't want to stick around even though every indicator is that it should be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personal note:

IMO the examples you provided of weapons being nerfed were very very required at the time. I remember the retribution in particular initially being a no brainer upgrade on a top end myth skullbow or disc thrower when it had half or less the upgrades. That thing deserved all the nerfs it got (It was still useful once they finally got it under control, just not quite so blatant...) although with aqua the "special" rewards theme started and generic weapons were written off...

Wait does the armor from Trans quality and higher dispear after a period of time or last tell the wave ends ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@CrzyRndm quote:


@CrzyRndm quote:

*snip*

Thx for the response. I think I understand.

If there is an 8.3 I hope that an intentional increase in multipliers may be considered particularly if the peak wave can be removed so top items can drop all the way to the end of the map.

Finally, and I will not ask any more in case I am entering the forbidden forest of DD data, can you shed any light on the impact of having 1,2,3 or 4 heroes in any given Survival wave? Does this raise the total number of drops, increase the difficulty and increase the multipliers suggesting better items will drop,  increase the number of items left on the floor (I fund this odd and unlikely but someone suggested it to me), a combination of some or all of these or other effects?

Thx in advance for any information shared


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[[24022,users]]

IMO the examples you provided of weapons being nerfed were very very required at the time. I remember the retribution in particular initially being a no brainer upgrade on a top end myth skullbow or disc thrower when it had half or less the upgrades. That thing deserved all the nerfs it got (It was still useful once they finally got it under control, just not quite so blatant...) although with aqua the "special" rewards theme started and generic weapons were written off...

First off, thanks fro clarifying a few things. I'd love if the (unintentional) decrease in drop rates, the armor disappearing and garbage loot/rollovers are fixed in upcoming updates, I'm looking forward to it.

Secondly, yeah, those 2 -- The Van Wolf and Retribution needed a nerf and they were nerfed at the right time, i.e. shortly after their release. Granted there was outrage regarding those two, specifically the Retribution, but it didn't lead to rioting! :D
However, the reason I used those nerf examples were in context of how Lab should've been nerfed when Trendy had the time. Now after all these years if it is nerfed, I wonder what the response would be.
I'm still of the opinion that the right time for fixing Lab has passed and what we can do is have other maps(survivals specifically) boosted up to the levels of Lab Assault in terms of item quantity and a slight increase in quality when compared with Lab Assault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see a lot of concern about lab.  We arent planning on nerfing lab.  As you said, that time has likely passed unless there is an outcry from the whole community to nerf it.

.... Nope.  dont hear any.  So it is staying as is.  


Also, any balance related changes we are trying to put into discussion threads here before implementing them.  That way the community can provide input on a particular balance change before the beta time.  We are trying to find ways to improve progression all around such as making survivals more rewarding.  The garbage loot fix has definitely improved the drop rate on survivals over the 8.0 and previous releases. We also boosted acc rewards from maps like GTH, WW, SN, CD and Palantir in order to bring them up to lab level.  Lab hasnt been touched though.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been a lot of really good discussion here, and I wanted to throw in my two cents, specifically about things like nerfing Labs.  It's important that I start off by mentioning I am in no way an end game player.  I play offline mode, by myself, without any emulator for the 4 player item drops.  I'm not even close to NM difficulty, let alone NMHC.  I tend to get too frustrated with some of the core mechanics in DD1 and go on hiatus for periods of time.

When people talk about something like Lab nerfs, particularly relating to the "I wasn't there when it was broken" element.  For me (and I can't stress enough that this is my opinion), I don't care if other people were able to abuse a broken mechanic before I had a chance to.  It's more important to me that the parts of the game that are essentially strapped together with duct tape get replaced with solid concrete, if you'll allow me the metaphor.  If Labs is dropping such great loot that it breaks progression, then something needs to be done.  This doesn't necessarily mean that the solution only lies in tweaking Labs, but in my opinion it does warrant a change.

[[31834,users]] brought up a lot of great points about the handicap the CDT deals with.  I'm honestly very appreciative for this open communication.  I think this is something the community needs to decide.  It bottles down to this: is DD1 dead (in maintenance mode), or is there room for growth?  It would probably be worth making a new thread about this.  Specifically, does the community want drastic changes at the risk of fracturing the community, or does it want minor tweaks and that's it.  In my opinion, I wholeheartedly agree with gigazelle.  While I love the fundamental elements of DD1, there is a lot of core elements I feel need to be changed.  Based on my experiences with DD1, and the sentiments echoed by friends of mine, I think there's ultimately a potential to really breathe some life back into DD1, and bring back players who, like myself, got really disenchanted with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...