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spiritessence

Dear Trendy! Dungeon Defenders 2 = Diablo 3?

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Greetings!


This thread will be a little sour and rant-ish. It will be based 100% on my personal observations and opinion!


My view on DD1 to DD2

First and foremost, I'd like to say that Dungeon Defenders 1 was one of my favorite games for a long time. But while I really liked the game, I always felt a little off about how absurdly overpowered we were. If you were geared for end game, NOTHING were a challenge anymore. Granted it could take a long time to grind to that point, but it doesn't change the fact that the game would be permenantly on easy mode from that point out.


When Dungeon Defenders 2 were announced I had mixed feelings. I followed the progress of the development and when I first purchased the game to try it out (after a long time of scepticism), I felt we were extremely underpowered in DD2. Maybe that was just because I was used to DD1's power feeding the players.
After a while of developing, Trendy gave us more and more "gold" content that just made the game better and better. At this point, DD2 is still one of the more enjoyable games on my steam library.


At that point the game started to favor active player involvement. It was no longer so easy to just sit behind defenses and afk for 3 hours. DD2 actually favored going past the defenses and do stuff. And that was expanded upon a lot, and still is. I love playing my DPS huntress. And with gamemodes like powersurge, there are room for both great builders and great dps.

So in conclussion, it seemed to me that DD2 was supposed to be a geared down, but more refined DD1, to allow players to be more involved, and I came to love that.


The issue according to me

First I'd like to explain the title of this thread. 

To those who do not know Diablo 3, it has become a game where the developers has become too lazy to balance things out, so you basically do 1 quest, then you have full set of end game gear, and then its easy mode for the rest of the game. They release stronger and stronger sets, leaving old sets behind, then buffing them up to the new ones, and release higher difficulties to make up for the absurd power boost. That's not a 1 time event, that's whats happening time after time, and even  now they announced an even higher difficulty. This is lazy in my eyes. But hey, people still enjoy the game.


What does that have to do with Dungeon Defenders 2? Well, at first the game gave us a decent amount of challenge. Especially when they announced Incursion etc. But now we are finally getting new heroes we know from DD1, and with that, we get more options to how we can build our maps. Which is fantastic, I love options. BUT! Why are the new heroes so much better than the old original ones? Most Nightmare 4 games has Ev and Summoner in them. Many people still use old original heroes, but the game favors the newer ones the most. Even  now, they just buffed the proton beam, despite it being already very useful in NM4. Why?! They are basically making the iconic heroes of Dungeon Defenders redundant in their own game.

Second of all, we currently have Nightmare 4 as the "hardest difficulty". We have onslaught to take it up a notch but that's about it. That's when I started seeing similarities with Dungeon Defenders 2 and Diablo 3. Better gear, stronger heroes, higher difficulties. It's becomming more and more easy to setup the HARDEST content of the game, and at that point, no one bothers doing something active in a game. As Im writing this, I'm afk in a NM4 onslaught, where the host has setup a defense that does everything just fine. Well, this sure is a lot of fun, being afk in a game (sarcasm). This does not apply to every game, but it has become more and more frequent.


You can argue that it's my own decision wether or not I choose to join/create such games. Yes it is my own choice. However, who will intentionally downgrade themselves so they can have some fun? Not the majority. Our mentality is just not in favor of that.


My conclussion

If Trendy keeps releasing stronger and stronger heroes, better and better gear, and higher difficulties, instead of keeping it on a balanced playfield, this game will eventually end up like Dungeon Defenders 1 as well as Diablo 3. And people will get fed up with the continous release of new gear (which makes all their hard work wasted), and higher difficulties because the developers refuse to try and balance things out.


I would personally much rather have content in the game, that is difficult to handle even with the best gear equipped. I thought Nightmare 4 was supposed to be that. We don't need Nightmare 5 and 6 and 7 and 8, no balance the game and make Nightmare 4 the END OF IT. 


We need Nightmare 4 to be a gamemode that requires a REALLY good builder, AND good dps or else it will fail. Don't let DD2 become DD1 or Diablo 3. It's to me a wasted opportunity.


I've heard they are doing a remake of enemies to force more variated setups in higher difficulties, and yes thats a great step forward. I love the sound of that, but its' not enough. I think they need to stop the flow of new overpowered heroes, gear and higher difficulties as well.



But that's just my personal opinions and observation. Feel free to disagree with me. After all, I only speak on my own behalf and the people Ive spoken with that agrees.

Best Regard
Spirit Essence


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Proton beam was nerfed during the nerf patch it got bugged, and they fixed the bug. It is not that Powerful as it used to be.  Nor is it that powerful as it is now after the nerf.

The real issue that stands out the most is the archers, due to its +10% dmg passives makes it stronger then most.  So older towers still need to be buffed to be close to the power of archers, that or nerf the Archer passive to 5% from 10%.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

Proton beam was nerfed during the nerf patch it got bugged, and they fixed the bug. It is not that Powerful as it used to be.  Nor is it that powerful as it is now after the nerf.

The real issue that stands out the most is the archers, due to its +10% dmg passives makes it stronger then most.  So older towers still need to be buffed to be close to the power of archers, that or nerf the Archer passive to 5% from 10%.

they already nerfed archer lol, another nerf would kill archers and make it useless, the game is already getting harder, i used to see a lot of people playing bastille before, now they don't cus it's getting harder now 

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@Stannis Baratheon quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:

Proton beam was nerfed during the nerf patch it got bugged, and they fixed the bug. It is not that Powerful as it used to be.  Nor is it that powerful as it is now after the nerf.

The real issue that stands out the most is the archers, due to its +10% dmg passives makes it stronger then most.  So older towers still need to be buffed to be close to the power of archers, that or nerf the Archer passive to 5% from 10%.

they already nerfed archer lol, another nerf would kill archers and make it useless, the game is already getting harder, i used to see a lot of people playing bastille before, now they don't cus it's getting harder now 

Useless? Try use flame towers on Nm4. Many consider them useless. However, if every tower was on the same level, it would simply make NM4 the difficulty it needed to be. Flame towers can still get 10-15k dps. Maybe we dont NEED things to get higher than that.


That's the essence of my concerns at least.

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@spiritessence quote:

My view on DD1 to DD2

First and foremost, I'd like to say that Dungeon Defenders 1 was one of my favorite games for a long time. But while I really liked the game, I always felt a little off about how absurdly overpowered we were. If you were geared for end game, NOTHING were a challenge anymore. Granted it could take a long time to grind to that point, but it doesn't change the fact that the game would be permenantly on easy mode from that point out.

My counters to your comment that feeling overpowered in DD1 was a negative rather than a positive:

  • Game difficulty is not always directly proportional to how fun a game is (at least for the majority of video-game player types). I will acknowledge that there are definitely games out there that DO try to purposely do this -- think Super Meat Boy, Darkest Dungeon, other roguelike titles, etc. etc. -- but from what I've seen, it is very hard to create a game that will have players simultaneously want to punch their monitor, but also want to continue playing. In my opinion (take it or leave it), while not every game benefits from having a very high level of difficulty, every game genre in existence DOES benefit from always providing something for a player to do / work towards. DD1 did this successfully in the sense that there was no character cap (you could create "1 of Everything" for no additional cost) and the "gear-ceiling" was practically non-existent (with a crapton of extremely rare / powerful items tiers, up to Ult++ , there was always room for improving a character, which meant more reasons for players to stick around for longer).
  • The final tier of end-game DD1 content in terms of difficulty was not all that easy -- I have like 1450 or so hours logged, and I still used to lose on Winter Wonderland / Crystaline Dimension / Akatiti Jungle / Tinkerer's Lab, etc. occasionally (and some of the challenges were pretty difficult too!). If you're telling me that you never lost a map EVER in DD1, then you either had almost-perfectly geared characters or you weren't running the hardest maps.
  • In my opinion, if you have some of the best items / gear in the game, you SHOULD feel overpowered. If you've spent many many hundreds, or even thousands of hours gearing up many characters in a game, you should feel like your time spent has actually made a difference. If Player 1, who has spent 200 hours playing a game still faces the same difficulty that Player 2, who has spent 1500 hours playing, faces then there's 0 incentive to put more than 200 hours into that same game, y'know? DD2 currently suffers from that problem IMO.
  • If we do consider DD1 an easy game (a statement that I can agree with for the most part), then I think we have to clarify that it was only "easy" for a fairly small percentage of players -- it was definitely not easy for every player, or even a majority of players.
@spiritessence quote:
At that point the game started to favor active player involvement. It was no longer so easy to just sit behind defenses and afk for 3 hours. DD2 actually favored going past the defenses and do stuff. And that was expanded upon a lot, and still is. I love playing my DPS huntress. And with gamemodes like powersurge, there are room for both great builders and great dps.

So in conclussion, it seemed to me that DD2 was supposed to be a geared down, but more refined DD1, to allow players to be more involved, and I came to love that.

Further comments:

  • "At that point the game started to favor active player involvement. It was no longer so easy to just sit behind defenses and afk for 3 hours" ---> DD2 has gone through different phases with various updates where it has been afk-able, but also where it was artificially difficult to the point that there were only 2 meta builds that would actually win a map on NM4 (NOTE: my definition of "artificial difficulty", in the context of DD2, is difficulty that cannot be combated effectively with (a.) strategic defense setups, (b.) strategic character builds, or (c.) time soaked into farming better gear -- and artificial difficulty combined with poor hero balance creates a system where only a small handful of defense types / hero classes are "useful"). I will be quick to clarify that I loved the changes that Trendy made with "hero boost" update (and with each revision to it), because now there are a good amount of different build-types that work, which provides multiple ways to complete a map, which allows for more variation in the way in which the game is played, which makes everyone happy -- the update was a huge leap in the right direction, but further balance is definitely still needed (both the Apprentice + Monk need some love...)
  • "DD2 actually favored going past the defenses to do stuff" ---> You speak as if there was no player interaction in DD1 at all... -- You still needed to venture past defenses to collect mana and upgrade defenses, and certainly still needed DPS characters for [most, if not all] bosses. What I liked about about DD1 was that a good "Upgrader" hero was just as useful as a good DPS hero -- that's why there was a movement late in DD1's lifespan (i.e. when the daily playerbase was still high), where people farmed weapons that didn't necessarily have the best stats, or that did the most damage, but that were rather good for collecting mana to upgrade defenses -- (Ex.) the Huntress / Ranger / EV etc. wolf gun thing that fired multiple projectiles in a small area, and that could shoot through walls or the Apprentice / Adept / EV etc. 'Genie Staff' that fired even more projectiles in a small circle -- (for those who didn't play the game, these weapons worked well with the Genie pet, which rewarded mana when a player caused damage to an enemy; the amount collected was proportional to the amount of times you "hit" an enemy between the Genie's cooldown -- so more projectiles in a small area = more hits on a single enemy = more mana collected overall).
  • "...DD2 was supposed to be a geared down, but more refined DD1..." ---> Mehh, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think DD2 is similar to DD1 at all -- and IMO, the differences that Trendy introduced -- some of which really make you scratch your head -- are certainly not all positives... (mechanic-changing passives on armor & weapons, only 2 stats on items, enemy lanes / build areas that feel cramped, etc.). I'd say that DD2 has a very long ways to go in terms of balancing defenses & heroes / fixing underlying issues with the game's structure, before it can be considered a "more refined" version of anything.


I know everything I've said above makes me sound like a major Negative Nancy lol, so I want to clarify that I am not angry at Trendy, I still enjoy playing DD2 (most of the time... ;P), and I'm not discrediting the opinions expressed in your post (I'm just trying to counter them to provide some different viewpoints). DD2 is not a bad game, per se, but my frustration revolves around the fact that I think it could be so much better if Trendy borrowed the same design concepts that made DD1 as successful of a game as it [was / is]. (Steam ratings don't mean everything, but the fairly large chasm between the mediocre ratings of DD2 and the heavily positive ratings of DD1 certainly should mean something!)

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@Stannis Baratheon quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:

Proton beam was nerfed during the nerf patch it got bugged, and they fixed the bug. It is not that Powerful as it used to be.  Nor is it that powerful as it is now after the nerf.

The real issue that stands out the most is the archers, due to its +10% dmg passives makes it stronger then most.  So older towers still need to be buffed to be close to the power of archers, that or nerf the Archer passive to 5% from 10%.

they already nerfed archer lol, another nerf would kill archers and make it useless, the game is already getting harder, i used to see a lot of people playing bastille before, now they don't cus it's getting harder now 

Yah they all ready nerfed it, but it is still one of the best towers after nerf. 
Archers advantage is its wide range, and being able to attack from 2 directions.  Its advantage should not be highest dps tower in game. 

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In the end the game is a tower defense game and you should be able to defend yourself with what you got, regardless of the difficulty. Feeling overpowered is part of the game unless you're doing pretty dumb builds.

I wondered how people got those 750 iPWR items beeing in a position to farm them right now. I tried every map given for the beginning, Sewers, Gates, hell even Ramparts, those that were easy anyways and failed every time.

And apparently the map marked as most difficult because recently released, Power Surge brings me the most benefits playing squire only while even beeing able to nearly finishing it if I'd not start sleeping at the end of the fourth round.

When they're doing their strategic overhaul, I hope they focus a little bit on diffrent characters beeing more usefull on specific maps which is a nice way to balance the game.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

So older towers still need to be buffed to be close to the power of archers, that or nerf the Archer passive to 5% from 10%.

In the current state it should allways be a nerf. And also what should be considered its the diffirent use of a tower.

3 diffirent 30du towers could do 20k dps, 30k dps and 40k dps while remaining balanced. The 20k one has most options (for example 360 degrees to shoot at), the 30k can only shoot at 90 degrees, the 40k has a much slower attack rate.

The way trendy has to value a tower is to take its dps (which is the dps of just a standard shot, that archers can shoot in 2 directions isnt counted, it only counts 1 archers dps). Adding to that a certain % of dps that the abilities of a tower is worth. For archers the part that its 2 that can shoot together would be worth about 70% (as its unlikely they will allways be shooting, but that it can is its major boost). Can it hit air? +10%, Is its range 50% higher than the base line considered balance? +25%. Can it perform stuns? +20%, Can it slow? +10%, Its its attack rate 50% faster? +50%, is its attack rate halved? - 33%. Does it have splash damage? etc etc etc.

Even for traps the damage range is relevant on that, +100% range could potentialy do +500% damage. So you try to measure the base line there so the trap can only do its ideal damage when it realy is going to contain that many enemies.

When counting such values you can actualy compare a tower and decide to balance it more fairly on that. If an ability appears overpowered you can change that modifier and recheck all towers. Potentialy revealing why an other tower appears underpowered.

When not tracking such abilities there is simply no way to keep track on the balance between towers as altering 1 stat can simply throw over 5 towers (as the EV's attack rate boost on his beam does).

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I have to disagree with your first point about DD1. Unless your core heroes pretty much all had top tier gear nothing about it was faceroll and that took so insanely long to get to you should be allowed to faceroll content because theres not much else for you to do. Striving for that power is what made DD1 so fun to begin with because you had a end goal with tons of different ways to go about it. 

DD2 is so boring in almost every aspect to DD1 that they really need to look at what made building characters with stats so much fun to begin with instead of watering down everything to the point you could be a brain dead monkey and still faceroll everything without trying. 

At least in DD1 it took you nearly 1k hours of play time to even be remotely close to that point and even then you still had the option to make a new set of characters and completely start of scratch.

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@Arcflare quote:

I have to disagree with your first point about DD1. Unless your core heroes pretty much all had top tier gear nothing about it was faceroll and that took so insanely long to get to you should be allowed to faceroll content because theres not much else for you to do. Striving for that power is what made DD1 so fun to begin with because you had a end goal with tons of different ways to go about it. 

DD2 is so boring in almost every aspect to DD1 that they really need to look at what made building characters with stats so much fun to begin with instead of watering down everything to the point you could be a brain dead monkey and still faceroll everything without trying. 

At least in DD1 it took you nearly 1k hours of play time to even be remotely close to that point and even then you still had the option to make a new set of characters and completely start of scratch.

 - ^^ I suppose I could have just "hearted" your post (or whatever the correct phrase is in the context of these forums...), but I agreed so much with the things you said, that I felt the need to leave a comment for added effect ;)

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