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EagleOne

Too much power for hobby devs - the CDT

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@Mischief quote:

    First off: 6k stat DSTs on beta shoot faster than 2k stat DSTs on live, and (obviously) deal far more damage.  So it's most assuredly NOT the DST change that causes your build that "works flawlessly" at 2k stats to fail at 6k, because they are quite simply perfectly superior towers at that point.

Wrong... Rate of fire has been decreased. Talking about 6k I was speaking about damage... nonetheless rate stat is also higher... about 3.4k than with 2k. Still slower. It should be known that I don't pull anything out of thin air. Will I have to put in screenshots? To prove that the CDT does not even know what they are doing? -.-


@Mischief quote: Now then...does the rate reduction hurt the DST's ability to kill trash mobs? Yes.  Is this a problem?  For me...no.  In fact, it's a good thing in my eyes - the DST shouldn't be able to keep up if you point it at a gigantic horde of enemies, in the same way that an Electric Aura or Proximity Mine shouldn't be able to kill an endgame survival Ogre by itself in any reasonable amount of time.  They're simply not designed to do these things.

The DST was never a horde killer, I never requested that the DST has to be a horde killer. They are designed to target primarily flying enemies, which has been introduced by Trendy for a higher distinction. They are designed to deal relative high damage within a lower rate of fire than other towers.

The big problem is that DSTs do not have an accuracy of 100% with their extremely huge range. In fact as farther away an enemy is as higher is the risk to miss. My experience using them shows that almost every 3rd shot misses. Lowering rate of fire is just not 0.65 to 0.75, when you miss a shot the lowered rate leads to a delay of 0.2 seconds already. Fighting several incoming flying enemies this sums up pretty fast. Result; shooting at secondary targets will be delayed (on Kings Game it's the Ogres who are able to reach the crystals now)


@Mischief quote:

      Before this change, the DST flat-out lost in DPS to the fireball and harpoon, even without accounting for the DU costs.  This meant that it was restricted to one gimmick only, which is its wall piercing.  Now, it beats both of those towers...for single target purposes.  In exchange, it loses a small amount of attack rate (seriously, it's not that big of a hit...).  I feel like this is a worthy trade.

Wrong... you are talking about theoretical tower DPS under the premise every projectile hits, every projectile deals its full damage potential. Under real conditions it does look completely different. Even the old DST were not able to always deal its full projectile damage to a single enemy. Result; the old DST already wasted lots of damage. The beta DST isn't able to deal more damage, in fact it does less due to lower rate of fire.

Before you were shooting with a pumpgun, now you are shooting with a rocket launcher at a single ant most of the time. I never said DST does not require a buff. I said you have decreased the DSTs effectiveness and your damage boost is not going to change anything. In combination of the breaking builds which worked before... your so called buffed DST is in reality a downgrade. 


@Mischief quote:    There are so many towers in the game already that can wipe out hordes of trash mobs, whether it's through piercing damage (harpoon), splash damage (fireball), attacks focused on certain areas (proxy mine, inferno trap, electric aura), or even a tower that can chain-zap 50+ enemies at once (Lightning Tower - which was also buffed).  These are the towers that should be used to clean out the trash, not the slow, strong DST.  In fact, with such high damage on the DST now, it may well be able to kill Djinn by itself when they try to desummon your towers.  This creates more opportunities to use it (in conjunction with traps and/or auras in the lanes to kill trash faster for example), not less.  It also gains increased viability with the new golden enemy change, where the damage buff will go to work on the golden wyverns and other enemies that your auras/traps may need help against.


As said, the DST is not used to kill hordes. It's not its purpose. As said, I use them frequently on survivals to protect spots, DSTs are already killing high survival Djinns without any assistance from other projectile shooting defenses. Actual in-game practice I admit here. The opportunity to create such builds are already there, as I've proven it in one of the other threads.

Justifying that buff with introducing new golden enemies is afaik ridiculous. Nobody actually requested a buff of golden enemies and at the end you would have to buff all towers to compensate higher health if you are saying DSTs are the new golden enemy killer. Also nice... once you see DST as Ogre killer and the other second as golden wyvern killer. Can we please stay at flying enemies > grounded enemies.


@Mischief quote:    Would simply increasing the rate and damage slightly instead of decreasing the rate and greatly increasing the damage produce a more effective tower?  Yes.  Does the golden enemy change make the game harder?  Probably.  However, if we just wanted to unilaterally buff everything...well, you said it yourself - that's what Eternity did.  We all know how that turned out.  Instead, what we did was further strengthen its "niche" - slow, strong projectiles that pierce walls.  It had the first and third originally, but was rather lacking in the second compared to other towers.


Its niche were strong before, you are not going to make it stronger. That's an extremely HUGE misbelief on your side. I'm not requesting that the DST shoots like Turrets every 0.14 second. But if you are going to change a tower you have to keep an eye on 5 years old builds to not break them. You may had no use for DSTs before, others had and you are going to kick their nuts.

Old DST ~622k a 0.65 = ~960k

Beta DST ~2200k a 0.75 = ~2930k (projectile damage boost of 353%, overall theoretical tower dps boost 305%)


On the paper these numbers look great BUT you forget two very important things:

- DST misses often.

- these insane damage numbers won't be fully dealt to enemies on a very regular basis.


Funny that you call DDE as example when the CDT has build most op towers ever with SND and EST. I don't know what "a slight increase" means to you but I'm wondering why a slight decrease of 0.1 (which comes along with a damage boost of 353%) is fine when an slight increase of 0.1 (which would come along with a damage boost of just 259%) is not. Tower DPS is equal but the beta DST wouldn't be such a garbage tower.


@Mischief quote:

    Calling it useless now is, quite simply, hyperbole.

No, it's not as I did my experience using them before and now. I actually played them before and now. I actually discovered the drawback even though you boosted their damage to the oblivion.


@Mischief quote:If that small reduction in rate really affects you that much...well, if it's really overkilling enemies by that much, it shouldn't be an issue to take some points out of damage and put it into rate, right? 



That's what I was telling you since 2 months. Slightly increase rate, slightly increase damage... builds are not going to break, DST received its boost, DST has still a high distinction to other towers.



@Mischief quote:

     And finally - keep it civil, please.  Outright antagonizing people who are voluntarily putting hours of their lives to create patches for this game over one change isn't going to help your case any.

I absolutely don't care how much hours they spent when they are ruining a game I like the most. I tried to be civil 2 months, were mostly ignored or got told that I'm not experienced enough to leave my opinion although I've backed up everything. Concerns I leave are not taken out of thin air.



PS: same goes for the EST with the decreased rate, i just care less about because I AM not using them BUT others probably do and will have a similar issue at the end.

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We are going to revert the DST change.  We actually made a private build yesterday with it reverted so that it can be moved to beta quickly if the community decided they wanted it reverted back.  Obviously someone decided to waste time and mess with the poll but since there have been more players saying they dont like the change, it is easier to make the decision to revert it now than basing it on feedback from just 1 or 2 players.  

That is why we encourage players to voice their opinions whenever we can and hope players encourage one another to do the same, whether a player likes a change or doesnt like it.  Feedback is important even if it is just "I like the change" or "I dont like the change".  Every player's vote counts.  If players just talk amongst each other though, it makes it hard to be counted.  So thank you to those who voiced their opinions.  

And as I was typing this I was informed that the beta should be updated with the change reverted.

  

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Hey Guys, so I just tested the new beta branch (just a very quick dmg test in the tavern). And I would say the dmg on the SND is still too high. My SND deals about 2 times as much dmg as my harpoon does. But it doesn't even cost 2 times the DU. So i feel like this number has to go down. A bit more dmg than one Harpoon is good. As I explayned in my last post, i feel like the SND is a tanky tower not a pure dps tower. To me the Harpoon is more of a DPS tower.

The DST was reverted to the live stats, which I dont really like either. I feel like it should deal as much dmg as the SND now and could also use a bit of a attack rate buff, to make it more usefull for groups of enemies that dont spawn constantly (like vyverns). To make it clear, i dont want the DST to be able to kill a constant swarm of enemies. but it should at least be possible to use its high range as an advantage. If it only has high dps but slow attack rate it can only be used as a Oger killer and nothing else. I would like to see it use as an oger killer and have it take down a 'rarly' (not constant swarm) spawning group of enemies form afar. Just make it a bit more versitale, give it a tiny bit more attack speed, give it a bit love :).

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Okay, so I did a few testruns on ember with the SND. And I see where you are coming from with the high risk/high reward argument. Though the only risk I found was sharken. Because even if you dont put extra points into tower health the SND is tanky as hell. So I think i'm okay with the SND as long as it did not change (at all) for pre nm. So i'm takling about no big difference to about 500 stats. I am currently testing a squire, e.g. running campagne on medium just to quickly see if the SND is op for new players.

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I seem to be unable to edit my own posts -.- so in my last post you can forget the '(at all)' i just dont want it to be OP before NM.

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Build a Gas Trap to stop Sharken if it is really required. On Ember also Minions are getting weak especially on last wave.

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@ddace quote:

We are going to revert the DST change.  We actually made a private build yesterday with it reverted so that it can be moved to beta quickly if the community decided they wanted it reverted back.  Obviously someone decided to waste time and mess with the poll but since there have been more players saying they dont like the change, it is easier to make the decision to revert it now than basing it on feedback from just 1 or 2 players.  

That is why we encourage players to voice their opinions whenever we can and hope players encourage one another to do the same, whether a player likes a change or doesnt like it.  Feedback is important even if it is just "I like the change" or "I dont like the change".  Every player's vote counts.  If players just talk amongst each other though, it makes it hard to be counted.  So thank you to those who voiced their opinions.  

And as I was typing this I was informed that the beta should be updated with the change reverted.

  

Wow, it's been ages since I've posted on the forums, feels strange.  I just wanted to chime in and ask about this poll.  There's probably something I'm missing, but I'm not sure what evidence there is with tampering.  Mind you I'm not trying to be accusatory or anything, but as I mentioned I haven't posted here in months.  I only recently came back to DD1 because a friend of mine wanted to play with me again.  I decided to browse the forums yesterday to see what's coming with the new update, and I voted in that poll.  I guess maybe my opinion doesn't weigh that heavily since I haven't been playing for a while, but it's troubling to see someone imply that it has been tampered with.  I voted for the "Revert the change but keep exploring options" because I wanted a solution more related to targeting priorities and such rather than just a flat number buff.  

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that a lot of players don't really voice their opinions here.  Again, maybe I'm missing something about this poll, but I'm disinclined to believe it was tampered with (unless something changed from when I looked at it last night).  I've mostly just kept to myself because it seemed like the CDT was really more focused on QoL changes for end game players, which doesn't really suit my interests, so I'll take responsibility for not speaking up sooner.

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@Valthejean quote:


@ddace quote:

We are going to revert the DST change.  We actually made a private build yesterday with it reverted so that it can be moved to beta quickly if the community decided they wanted it reverted back.  Obviously someone decided to waste time and mess with the poll but since there have been more players saying they dont like the change, it is easier to make the decision to revert it now than basing it on feedback from just 1 or 2 players.  

That is why we encourage players to voice their opinions whenever we can and hope players encourage one another to do the same, whether a player likes a change or doesnt like it.  Feedback is important even if it is just "I like the change" or "I dont like the change".  Every player's vote counts.  If players just talk amongst each other though, it makes it hard to be counted.  So thank you to those who voiced their opinions.  

And as I was typing this I was informed that the beta should be updated with the change reverted.

  

Wow, it's been ages since I've posted on the forums, feels strange.  I just wanted to chime in and ask about this poll.  There's probably something I'm missing, but I'm not sure what evidence there is with tampering.  Mind you I'm not trying to be accusatory or anything, but as I mentioned I haven't posted here in months.  I only recently came back to DD1 because a friend of mine wanted to play with me again.  I decided to browse the forums yesterday to see what's coming with the new update, and I voted in that poll.  I guess maybe my opinion doesn't weigh that heavily since I haven't been playing for a while, but it's troubling to see someone imply that it has been tampered with.  I voted for the "Revert the change but keep exploring options" because I wanted a solution more related to targeting priorities and such rather than just a flat number buff.  

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that a lot of players don't really voice their opinions here.  Again, maybe I'm missing something about this poll, but I'm disinclined to believe it was tampered with (unless something changed from when I looked at it last night).  I've mostly just kept to myself because it seemed like the CDT was really more focused on QoL changes for end game players, which doesn't really suit my interests, so I'll take responsibility for not speaking up sooner.

If you look at the results today, someone is making them all equal and it is up to over 1000 responses.  

And your opinion counts just as others do  

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@ddace quote:

If you look at the results today, someone is making them all equal and it is up to over 1000 responses.  

And your opinion counts just as others do  

Ah, I see.  That makes more sense then.  Thanks for the clarification.

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Okay, I am back, and have done some more testing on the SND. I think it's fine how it is in the current beta. Maybe a bit too high dmg still, but if other people think its good, i'm fine with that.


Also I wanted to add a little argument to the DST: Increasing its rate would not take it out of it's niche. Even if it had the rate of a harpoon turret, a harpoon would still be better at killing swarms of mobs, because of its piercing shots. I would say a tower doesn't have its niche because of its inability to do other stuff, but because of its efficiency (compared to the other towers) at doing that particular thing. Of course I dont want a DST shooting at the rate of a poon or MM, but not because I think it woult take it out of it's niche but because it does not need an insanly high attack rate for that niche and it wouldn't look and feel as cool/powerfull as it does now. All I would like is a higher DPS (which is needed for a single taget tower) and optimaly a really small increase in attack rate. To give you some numbers I think it sould deal about 50% more dps/du than a harpoon and about a 30% increase in attack rate. 

Why did I choose these numbers?

50% more DPS/DU than Harpoon: it would be more efficient at taking down an oger than a harpoon, but the harpoon has the advantage of still hiting other enemies behind the oger. Since lategame we often don't really care about anything else than the oger and often even have more than one oger coming, i think this is a fair number.

30% higher attack rate: In NM the enemies run much faster and the DST misses often. Its missrate goes from prettymuch none at lower lvls to every third at lategame. By increasing the attackrate we can compensate for that. Another possibility would be to increase projectilespeed (for example the higher the range stat the higher the projectile speed, or just a flat increasse in projectile speed). Since I don't know how hard it is to implement that and considering you already did a change to attack rate I think this would be the simpler solution.


And I want to thank the CDT again for their effort. I think you guys do a great job overall.

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