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EagleOne

Too much power for hobby devs - the CDT

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I'm seriously pissed...


Why does the CDT feel to be in need to "balance" towers which worked just fine for 5 years? Where are these requests the CDT is referring to when they justify their "balance" changes? Am I blind?


SND is still blatantly overpowered, I don't see any changes from beta 8.2-2 to 8.2-3. You don't care because you won't use them anyways? That doesn't mean others won't. NM is already ridiculous easy with these kind of stats we are able to achieve in no-time nowadays. Why do we get a tower which deals 250% of an always overpowered Harpoon Turret? Why do you make a superior builder even more superior?


DST was useless to you? Now it is even more! Why do we deal more than 2m damage per projectile to enemies which only have 100k-ish health on Nightmare? Even worse, you decided to slower rate of fire. The damage buff is worthless, I thought my example with my fresh-created Harpoon Turret made the Harpoon Turret (quoting) "a garbage tower". Why do you feel the DST isn't a garbage tower with such a low rate of fire, while we will only deal 3-6% of its new theoretical DPS? R.I.P. DST! Same for EST, extremely low rates of fire weakens a tower compared to high-frequent shooting tower, regardless of theoretical DPS comparisons.


TBB was never called underpowered, even more surprised you had the feeling to buff boost values o.O Great you have reverted the blatantly broken change but I know you were heavy discussing within the CDT about the change. So the question is; Does the CDT really care about the community or will be changes done just by input from their team? Many have shared my opinion on the "balance" changes.


v8.1 SND blatantly underpowered, DST feels too weak for some

v8.2 SND blatantly overpowered, DST will be too weak for all (minus number god[s]) due to even lower rate


Balance changes have to be done in small steps. Damage increases of more than 300% for DST (ineffective at the end) and more than 900% for SND (as much unbalanced as before) are NOT small steps. We are not in early access phase, the game exists for 5 years already. So dear hobby devs, don't touch a running system.


/rant

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I have to say that changing towers that have been as they are for so long is not a good idea and feel that this is against the spirit of  what I assumed the CDT was about.

Is that my mistake, maybe, but lets not make a mistake in what should be an endeavor to support DD, not break it.

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Too much power to the CDT, not enough for the people ! Rebel against oppression guys !


Let me lead the revolution, I'll make you all equal in communist DD !

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@EagleOne quote:

Why does the CDT feel to be in need to "balance" towers which worked just fine for 5 years? Where are these requests the CDT is referring to when they justify their "balance" changes? Am I blind?

PzunVpR.jpg

I mean... if by "just fine" you mean you were ok with 16/34 towers being completely unusable (that's not "just fine", that's terrible), with many simply not making a tower apprentice because its towers were for the most part a dumpster fire in Nightmare, then... ok, you might be right?

Just because you can beat  a map with the towers you have doesn't mean for a second that the game is "balanced" in any way. The running joke about DD is that you can win any map by throwing down an aura stack with a buff beam and 4 minions. And it's not exactly wrong now, is it? Please, tell me why, before this beta, I would EVER have a use for a SnD turret in Nightmare. What map beyond Glitterhelm could I lay one down without it being mutilated within 2 waves, doing next to no damage, and taking down a buff beam with it?

Are the changers far too much? Possibly. But they are necessary in order to let people actually use some of these towers to make new builds.


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@Caimen0 quote:


@EagleOne quote:

Why does the CDT feel to be in need to "balance" towers which worked just fine for 5 years? Where are these requests the CDT is referring to when they justify their "balance" changes? Am I blind?

PzunVpR.jpg

I mean... if by "just fine" you mean you were ok with 16/34 towers being completely unusable (that's not "just fine", that's terrible), with many simply not making a tower apprentice because its towers were for the most part a dumpster fire in Nightmare, then... ok, you might be right?

Just because you can beat  a map with the towers you have doesn't mean for a second that the game is "balanced" in any way. The running joke about DD is that you can win any map by throwing down an aura stack with a buff beam and 4 minions. And it's not exactly wrong now, is it? Please, tell me why, before this beta, I would EVER have a use for a SnD turret in Nightmare. What map beyond Glitterhelm could I lay one down without it being mutilated within 2 waves, doing next to no damage, and taking down a buff beam with it?

Are the changers far too much? Possibly. But they are necessary in order to let people actually use some of these towers to make new builds.


I was always partial to a DST on tinkers North East crystal. for those gas djin that were perma stunned.

The point also is we are 5 years after release and 3 years since last official patch - so do we / you / CDT have the right to fundamentally change it? 

What is the mission statement of CDT? Provide content for long term players? QoL changes? Make ha, I mean event items of their most desired gear? 

This is a very sensitive issue, alot of us have spent alot of hours playing this game, dreaming of it, obsessing, so emotions are going to show.

ofc maybe i'm just a Luddite. then again look what the industrial revolution has resulted in - climate change (at this point I realize i need to stop).


 


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@Caimen0 quote:I mean... if by "just fine" you mean you were ok with 16/34 towers being completely unusable (that's not "just fine", that's terrible), with many simply not making a tower apprentice because its towers were for the most part a dumpster fire in Nightmare, then... ok, you might be right?

Good game calling the Apprentice... despite the fact that I used him already, especially on survivals. Yes, you've read right... app towers for survival. Just because you don't see any use for it doesn't mean they don't have any.


However, MM has received a little damage which is fine. Lightning Tower change is fine too, it isn't blatantly outperforming an electric aura or as strong as a Harpoon. If you would have read my concerns you would have seen that I'm talking about certain towers. For the DST it got worse although damage has been increased. Is it so hard to understand that you will loose almost 2000k damage per shot because you are shooting 100k enemies with your 2000k damage projectile? Why not #&$%§&§% slightly increase rate and damage? The change looks good on the paper, nothing more. You are breaking builds with that change as I reported it already.


Also does that mean that every tower has to be useful, to be powerful as any other tower at end-game? That simply does not make any sense... build-whatever-you-want strategy has not to be a thing (if so go play DDE... jezuz) but stats... Come on it's a Tower Defense not a Hack'N'Slash even though with your 8k stats it already is a Hack'N'Slash and you are able to build any defenses.


@Caimen0 quote:Just because you can beat  a map with the towers you have doesn't mean for a second that the game is "balanced" in any way. The running joke about DD is that you can win any map by throwing down an aura stack with a buff beam and 4 minions. And it's not exactly wrong now, is it? Please, tell me why, before this beta, I would EVER have a use for a SnD turret in Nightmare. What map beyond Glitterhelm could I lay one down without it being mutilated within 2 waves, doing next to no damage, and taking down a buff beam with it?

Are the changers far too much? Possibly. But they are necessary in order to let people actually use some of these towers to make new builds.


So you admit SND is overpowered. It's #$§&§%& dumb to knowingly overpower towers to encourage people using them... Also a tower does not have to be useful in every state of the game... otherwise Reflect Beams, Physical Walls, Traps and other Barriers would be still a thing at your so called end-game and enemies would actually scale according to your defense power. However, the CDT has received input, ignored by a huge part but the TBB which was already heavy discussed within the CDT.


By the way... middo has beaten the game or at least a huge part without the use of any auras. I myself have beaten shard maps and a lot bonus maps using just traps. So please don't say we wouldn't have the ability to create "new" builds. It's already ridiculous, don't screw it even more. Eternity needs hobby devs to look at, not DD1 which was fine for such a long time.




@Caimen0 quote:PzunVpR.jpg




I'm the left one

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EagleOne

I have no idea if SnD is overpowered or not. I haven't used it in beta. At all. I said that because of my experience with Spikes, which were nuts.

Apprentice towers towers are not the most optimal tower for any map.

Magic missile and Fireball were outclassed by Harps. The wall was a pile of garbage. Lightning was generally a waste because of electric auras. (With a nice exception on WW from what I am aware) DST was only usable on King's Game.

Even on KG, the map with the best claim to an optimal setup for apprentice, the time isn't any better using DST's than minions or Harps.


@EagleOne quote:


Also does that mean that every tower has to be useful, to be powerful as any other tower at end-game? That simply does not make any sense... build-whatever-you-want strategy has not to be a thing (if so go play DDE... jezuz) but stats... Come on it's a Tower Defense not a Hack'N'Slash even though with your 8k stats it already is a Hack'N'Slash and you are able to build any defenses.


...what?

In an ideal scenario each tower would have a niche scenario in which it is the best option.

Long, narrow hall? Harpoon should be the de facto turret.

Wide semicircle with several approaches? Fireball/Lightning/Electric aura.


Then Summoner + EV were added. And it all went to hell, because now you lay down mage + spider + 2x archer and its an unbreakable wall. It's a lot easier and more reliable to have an autoheal wall that only needs the auras repaired than having to repair all 7 (minions + auras) towers.


@EagleOne quote:



By the way... middo has beaten the game or at least a huge part without the use of any auras. I myself have beaten shard maps and a lot bonus maps using just traps. So please don't say we wouldn't have the ability to create "new" builds. It's already ridiculous, don't screw it even more. Eternity needs hobby devs to look at, not DD1 which was fine for such a long time.



Please, show me a video of anyone beating Akatiti / WW / TL NMHC with no auras. Because I know you can't :>



I guess a tl;dr of my position on this is that changes that increase the potential for unused niche towers to see use isn't a bad thing unless its done poorly. I do not know if it was done poorly. If you can prove to me that SnD pushes towers out of use entirely or that DSTs are no longer usable at all, then I'll believe you. But ranting about the numbers (omg 900%!!!!1!!) with no context behind them isn't going to convince me that your ranting is on target.


EDIT: I have been informed that Middo actually did Aka with no auras. *Applause*

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@Caimen0 quote:

I have no idea if SnD is overpowered or not. I haven't used it in beta. At all. I said that because of my experience with Spikes, which were nuts.

Why discussing at all if you haven't even tested, yet? Bootlicking?


@Caimen0 quote:

Apprentice towers towers are not the most optimal tower for any map.

Magic missile and Fireball were outclassed by Harps. The wall was a pile of garbage. Lightning was generally a waste because of electric auras. (With a nice exception on WW from what I am aware) DST was only usable on King's Game.

Even on KG, the map with the best claim to an optimal setup for apprentice, the time isn't any better using DST's than minions or Harps.

Do you only read what do you want to read? Not only Apprentice towers were not optimal and still isn't compared to OP Harpoon Turrets and now Slice'N'Dice which outclasses Harpoon Turrets by a lot. Do you deny that Squire has been made more superior than he already was?

Since you have mentioned to not have tested SND I assume you haven't tested any "balance" changes. MM has received a slightly change, reasonable? Who knows, its a small(!) change and not part of what I'm complaining about. Fireball Tower has not(!) received a change, if you say they were junk before, they are also junk now. The Magic Barrier is still junk since no changes has been performed on them. If we are picky then Lightning Tower is still a waste because of electric auras although they are stronger. No, I don't want them any stronger, it's an alternate tower right now, not OP as *** but also not that much outclassed as before.

Just because you don't use them doesn't mean others don't. I use DSTs on many maps such as Shard maps, Kings Game, Tavern Defense, Winter Wonderland and I experienced a downgrade to the DST. However, If you are honest, you neither use Harpoon Turrets on these maps. The time on Kings game (such as on many other maps) isn't better because of the Ogre Spawn delay, don't play the fool, you know better.


@Caimen0 quote:In an ideal scenario each tower would have a niche scenario in which it is the best option.

Long, narrow hall? Harpoon should be the de facto turret.

Wide semicircle with several approaches? Fireball/Lightning/Electric aura.


Then Summoner + EV were added. And it all went to hell, because now you lay down mage + spider + 2x archer and its an unbreakable wall. It's a lot easier and more reliable to have an autoheal wall that only needs the auras repaired than having to repair all 7 (minions + auras) towers.

Oh come one... auras are used to kill the mob... if Harpoon Turrets were used at all, they were build to kill Ogres. With on going change SND will do a better job than Harpoon Turrets. I already tested and proven it but I got told that I have to dumb my stats. SNDs will also do a much better job than any other tower. Fireball towers are weak as *** compared to beta SND.

You are easily able to beat the game without minions, using a mix of towers. Barriers/Poons from Squire, Fireball/DST from App, Drain/Electric/Ensnare from Monk, Gas/Darkness Trap from Huntress. Series EVs TBB is just required for the hardest maps of the game.

Are these buildings most effective? No, but has everything to be equally efficient? Different strategies are different effective.


@Caimen0 quote:Please, show me a video of anyone beating Akatiti / WW / TL NMHC with no auras. Because I know you can't :>

Because you can't for any reason... I know for sure middo has done TL NMHC without auras. That was one of the first maps he was noticing me about. I'm not sure if he just did minion-less run on WW or also an aura-less. However, I don't know if he recorded the runs but Aka, he has create a video just to prove a point.... you better read more at the forums...

here you go



@Caimen0 quote:

I guess a tl;dr of my position on this is that changes that increase the potential for unused niche towers to see use isn't a bad thing unless its done poorly. I do not know if it was done poorly. If you can prove to me that SnD pushes towers out of use entirely or that DSTs are no longer usable at all, then I'll believe you. But ranting about the numbers (omg 900%!!!!1!!) with no context behind them isn't going to convince me that your ranting is on target.

Sad to see this comment. Feels like pure waste of MY time discussing with wannabe know-it-all who hasn't even tested balance changes or read related threads to this topic. Everything has been proven. Too harsh? I don't think so... do your homework.


/rant

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Deadly Striker/Ethereal Spike
    You seem to have missed something in the patch notes and while testing, something that completely changes the argument.  Let's read it, shall we?

[[48136,users]] quote:

•    Golding an enemy (by Djinn / Wheel) increases its power by a percentage so the power boost scales into higher level games

(I don't know how to properly quote individual parts of a post from another thread, haven't posted on these forums in ages, bear with me)

    This is a VERY significant boost.  On high-end maps and survivals, this effectively averages out to a 5x increase in enemy health from normal -> golden.  In particular, this makes golden wyverns much more durable, to the point where the old DST/EST wouldn't (and still don't even with the damage buffs) do enough damage to kill them in one shot.  Here's some numbers I took from some notable maps as examples (all from Nightmare Wave 20 survivals, not mix mode):

Embermount Volcano: Wyverns have 1.6M HP normally, jumps to 8M golded
Sky City: Wyverns have ~670k HP normally, jumps to ~3.35M golded
King's Game: Wyverns have ~570k HP normally, jumps to ~2.85M golded

    This buff isn't limited to wyverns, either.  While looking for a golden wyvern on King's Game to compare, I saw a golden mage with 2.2M HP.  Just imagine how much something like a golden DEW would have, or god forbid a golden Ogre if a jester messes up.  Also remember that those are wave 20 numbers; it gets worse.

    So you tell me.  Is the extra damage being wasted on these new gold enemies?  Would the old Ethereal Spike have been able to kill the new golden wyverns in a Sky City single crystal build (which is, by the way, literally the only type of build I'd ever seen anyone use them in before this)?  Somehow, I don't think so.

    For the record, we actually had quite a few conversations about the DST change internally, and even took a vote at one point on whether or not to keep the change in.  Pretty much everyone who actively plays the game voted, and the majority wanted to keep it in.  The reasoning was both the above change meaning the damage buff was by no means going to waste thanks to the gold change, and that the rate reduction was really quite minor (less than one-tenth of a second in most cases).  If your DSTs are now getting overrun by trash enemies...well, Lightning Tower just got buffed, why not throw one of them in to complement your DSTs?  Tower diversity for the win?

   As for Ethereal Spike, like I said, I've only seen it used seriously in one type of build that, by all rights, shouldn't even exist.  At this point in the game, we're not going to directly nerf it, but we're not going to go out of our way to preserve it either.  The new EST can be used in a lot more situations than the old one could, as a high-damage, high-reset time trap that can be placed in areas where only high-HP enemies (Ogres, Harbingers, bosses, Djinn, etc.) can ever get to.  There are other towers that excel in cleaning out the trash before they get to the EST.

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Slice N' Dice
(First off, it seems the damage reduction that was supposed to go in this patch didn't get properly included. Whoops.)

    Alright, I'm not sure why you insist on comparing apples to oranges (SnD vs. harpoon) here.  The SnD should do less damage than the Harpoon? No.  Absolutely not.  If the SnD doesn't outdamage the harpoon and another particular tower (will get to that later), it has absolutely no reason to exist.  Not only is it a melee tower, and thus can't hit nearly as many enemies as a harpoon can, but its health scaling is quite frankly abysmal.  The only melee/wall tower that scales worse than the SnD is the magicade, which is a 1DU defense (and probably needs some help too).  Even the harpoon's health scaling isn't THAT far off the SnD's.

    So, instead of comparing apples to oranges, let's compare apples to apples; namely, the Slice N' Dice's closest equivalent, the Ogre Minion.  These two defenses are quite similar: high DU/MU cost, melee, similar size (width-wise, anyway) and range.  However, the ogre absolutely crushes the SnD in health scaling (easily 3x as much health with comparable stats), even moreso when you consider that a mage can heal the ogre and not the SnD.  In addition, the ogre cannot be desummoned or moved by sharken, the former of which especially the SnD can do nothing about.  Finally, the ogre uses Minion Units, while the SnD takes a hefty 8 Defense Units that could maybe be spent better in other locations.

    With all of these advantages, why would anyone ever build a Slice N' Dice?  Damage.  Only problem is, in the live version, the ogre wins there too!  In live, there is absolutely zero reason to build this tower; harpoon or ogre would be better in any situation.  If the SnD does less damage than the harpoon, it would seriously be more beneficial to place a harpoon in melee range.  Of course, nobody does this unless they're wildly overstatted for that map because it would be suicide, but it would still be better.

    On that note; if you say that something is overpowered because you can beat Akatiti with 6k stats using that tower in some weird build - then good!  You should be able to!  If you can beat something with 2k stats, then of course as your stats get higher you should be able to use increasingly weird or less than optimal builds to beat that same map!  If you take that same build into Embermount or TL survival and win with the same level of ease, then there might be an issue.  However, nobody has said anything about either of those being broken/made trivial by SnD's, so...

    The way I see it, the new damage change has made the SnD into the ultimate high-risk, high-reward tower.  It's incredibly squishy for a melee tower, has short range, and is highly vulnerable to just about anything that stays out of that range (especially Djinn).  However, if you can make it work, it shreds anything that gets too close to it to pieces.  Is the damage too much?  Maybe (and remember, the latest damage reduction didn't get in this update because shenanigans).  But it can always be re-adjusted later if it starts dominating everything.  Same with the DST/EST if they really turn out to be as useless as you claim they will.

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How in the hell should be the EST a reasonable golden wyvern killer if it only attacks buffed every ~2 seconds a single enemy closest to the traps center? The EST is not that single which is used to kill enemies who passed your spots. It's an elemental tower, it cannot be build as single tower by default. True that it does not have a huge usage, at least for me, I only use them on Sky City and Tavern Defense. That's why I was asking for more opinions at the related threads as I don't use them.

The DST on the other hand were used much and I'm not even talking about golden enemies when I say that the DST has received a downgrade. A build which worked flawlessly with 2k stats before does not work at all with 5k (almost 6k) stats anymore. This is something that should not happen in first place for a 5 years old game regardless of your changes. The DST is ***ing useless, more than ever before.

If you justify these changes by golden enemies, why buffing health of golden enemies for a 5 years old game? If tower dps of DST/EST were to weak WHY decreasing fire rate. A very simple example...

Tower DPS = Damage * 1 / Rate of Fire
5k DST = ~2,200k * 1 / 0.75 = ~1600k * 1 / 0.55 = ~2,900k DPS


Do you see what I did here? Tower DPS is equally with slightly increased rate of fire while the projectile still receives ~1000k more damage than before (respectively a damage boost of ~166%). The effectiveness of the tower has been increased.

I don't have appropriate numbers of the EST but it's the same pattern. If you want to increase a towers effectiveness without breaking old builds you have to increase values. That's blatantly obvious to anyone with some experience. You are not changing a game which has been released 3 months ago...

Now honestly, do you ever build DST/EST to fight any kind of golden enemy? Doesn't that mean that other towers would require a damage boost as well, since you are arguing with increased health for golden enemies? In worst case you have to simply revert your golden enemy change. Especially because nobody has requested such a change. Or do I find a thread here at the forums requesting a buff for golden enemies? Period. Another thing only the CDT came to the conclusion.
____________


About SND, I've clearly stated my mind and view on the matter at the other threads. I encourage you reading them. Spike has no reason to exists, Bouncer has no reason to exists, Harpoon Turret has no reason to exists anymore, Bouncing Ball ever had a reason to exists? Comparing apples with oranges? Isn't the Harpoon Turret overpowered? It was always considered overpowered compared to ALL other towers. I also use Turrets as barrier, since they are healthy as hell. You spec'd your Squire to hit 6k tower rate? Your fault, I always spec'd health as secondary stat and they are tanks! Why do you think you have to outperform an OP tower?

Want some balancing? First off, let Harpoon Turrets don't pierce countless enemies anymore. Maximal 3 enemies, after each enemy damage reduced by 50%. Reduce their health. Make SND as powerful as Harpoon Turrets right now, dps-wise. Keep their health, so they still outperform Harpoon Turrets BUT due to changes the Harpoon Turret received. SNDs will be used to kill Ogres (and all other stuff) now. Is it a drastic change? Absolutely, it's drastic. Better not to do that, just leave an OP tower as is, it's too late to balance them. However, you don't have to bias DPS numbers by existing overpowered towers. Period.

EDIT: LOL I just realized you compare an Ogre minion with the SND but I'm comparing apples with oranges *rolleyes* Did you noticed nobody builds Ogre minions besides probably you? They don't even still stand a TBB. 2 Archers would be much better. Next update you will make Ogres also stronger since Archers are just superior to it? Come on.

Who actually is in the CDT, so we - the community knows who decides about changes. Not to be disrespectful but some seems to be displaced regardless of their effort and time spent. Why do we not have access to such discussions, so we - the community has the power to participate beforehand? The CDT isn't supposed to change fundamental things of the game to THEIR liking. The game is still played because it is good as is, if everything would have been so bad that such changes would have been so important then these changes were done way before or people simply left the game. Did you noticed the player base has been halved since the CDT has the power? You really don't want to excuse such low player numbers just by saying that almost 50% of the community were playing on Linux/Mac.

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As Michief pointed out, there seems to have been an issue with the merge. The SnD damage shouldnt be the same as the previous build. It isnt the same on our SVN. So we are looking into making sure that change gets included in the next build.

The CDT is not trying to force any changes. I have mentioned in several posts, the community gets to decide what stays and what goes. So the only power the CDT has is to present changes/fixes/new content for the community to test and approve or disapprove. Thus we try to get as much feedback on changes as possible. This means that even with presenting new content, the community could say no to.

Until now, I think we have only seen or heard from 3 people against the DST change. Most everyone else has seemed fine with the changes. A few have said they are fine with the DST and others have made general statements that they are fine with changes in the update. Now this could be that they did test the DST change or they skipped it. So it can be hard to know whether they actually like it, dont like it or just dont care. So if it helps, we can have a poll specific to this change to get a good feel one way or another. We actually have the change reverted on the SVN now and ready to be merged in the next build if that is what the community decides.

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Alright about the SND, I feel it will still deal way more damage than a Harpoon Turret reading comments of the CDT. At the end it is sad it took three days to recognize, proving my point nobody actually checks carefully changes... pretty much disqualifies all "Looks good" comments.

@ddace quote:

The CDT is not trying to force any changes. I have mentioned in several posts, the community gets to decide what stays and what goes.

That is something hard to believe after 2 months of discussing certain changes. Nobody of you actually took part at discussions until I actively called the CDT to share their thoughts. Yet, not all were mentioning their opinion., their believe why certain changes are required. The only thing we are reading often enough is that you say things has been requested by the community although it seems more an internal idea of some individuals since I don't see any threads here at the forums requesting certain changes.


@ddace quote:So the only power the CDT has is to present changes/fixes/new content for the community to test and approve or disapprove. Thus we try to get as much feedback on changes as possible. This means that even with presenting new content, the community could say no to.

Especially balance changes (not limited to towers, also enemy changes and things like building-in-spawn [still I don't get it why pressing -/+ does not work for them]) has to be done carefully. Following sounds big-headed but not every user has the insight or background to overview all consequences of a change. General responses such as "Good job", "Well done", "Looks awesome" are completely negligible. Do you remember when the community had a huge influence on Eternity? We have seen where tower balance changes are leading to just because everyone wanted an "easier" game. It's a farce if you only blame Nom Nom for a disastrous game (compared to DD1, it's great for casuals). The community had too much power. However, I love the fact that everybody ignores that DD1 is 5 years old but now such heavy changes are welcomed. It can only get worse.


@ddace quote:Until now, I think we have only seen or heard from 3 people against the DST change.

Already 4 users liked my initial post of this thread, so at least 5 people are against certain changes. You can't see it but not all of my posts are liked by the same individuals all the time. So in fact there are already more than 5 who have an issue with the CDT. A scaring fact; a few were talking to me in Steam that replying / discussing changes does not make any sense since the CDT is going to ignore it anyways. Also when statements are backed up by numbers, screenshots and videos. Their words, not mine but I feel their disappointment and see where they are coming from when they remain silent.


Now, could anyone please answer my questions...

Why is decreasing rate of fire a good change for towers? Especially if we have other towers which shoots 8-10 times more projectiles, dealing more damage to more enemies at the end?


Why we don't decrease rate of fire for all towers then? Of course this will be compensated by much higher damage numbers to result into a higher tower dps overall. So Magic Missiles only shoot every 0.6 seconds, Fireball Towers every 0.7 seconds, Harpoon Turrets every 0.8 seconds, DSTs every 1.2 seconds, Electric Auras every 0.5 seconds, Proximity Traps every 1.1 seconds, Inferno Traps every 1.0 seconds, Bouncer Blockade every 0.9 seconds and so on... Just random numbers but seriously, tower dps has been increased to all towers, so it's fine, not? Very positive side-effect; the load of your system will be decreased resulting into higher FPS.


Apprentice needs much more love than Squire but decreasing rates is not making anything better for Apprentice regardless of any damage boost. Everything has been said from my side, once again... since 2 months...

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Okay guys, I have to say I didn't real all that was posted in this thread. But I would also really like to see a higher rate of fire on the DST.

Lets talk about what makes the DST unique and how we can use it:


- very high Attack range

- high single-target DPS (or at least it should have..)

- can shoot through walls


Where can we use that? Either we can use him to kill enemies that do not constantly run in mass groups. For example take down wyvern when they spawn in one big group but with downtimes in between. We can greatly use his range that way. Or we use other towers to kill all the trashmobs and let him kill a few high health targets. we can use his range and wallpiercing abilities to cover multiple 'lanes'.


For the first point we dont need a fast shooting turret, so it can kill a bigger group without piercing shots, but instead use the high range. For the second point we need a high singletarget dps turret. The attackrate does not matter at all here. The question I want to ask is: why make a nieche turret lose half of its usefull positions when the lower dps doesnt even help his other position?


All that beeing said I really want to thank the CDT for their efford. And I think you do a great job! And if you see any other scenario where the low attack rate is beneficial and enables us to use the DST in another unique way, pls let me know :)


EDIT: I have a little question, and I thaught i might as well ask it here. The change to being able in spawn regions, how does it handle the raining gobblins challenge?


EDIT2: I have now read everything in this thread. And I can follow the thaought process of the CDT on the SND. But about the high rist high reward comment. It is very easy to make the SND a safe option. You can easily make it work. What I think would be a good amount of dmg for the SND is a bit more than one Harpoon. It should however have quite a bit more health than the harpoon. The Advantages of the SND then are simply the higher healthpool and the wider blocking region. You should be able to replace the SND with 2 Harpoons and have higher DPS. Because the SND is not primarily a singletarget DPS tower. It can block enimies at a wider angle and also attack more monters that stand next to eachother. Where the 2 Harps would only attack one or two of the enemies at once when they get really close, simply because it doesnt have such a wide attack.

Also I dont think every tower can be viable. Because as soon as you get the bouncer blokade the spike is outclassed. Which is fine, because they basically do the same thing and BB is the higher "tier"-tower. Then comes the SND which should outclass the BB at wider choke points, since it basicaly does the same thing again.

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Ogre does have one notable disadvantage versus SnD in the live version, which is that unlike archers, mages, and spiders, it walks off of buff beams even when you tell it to stay put.  That makes ogres less useful than they could be.

It's also hard to tell if ogres are buffed because the red lines don't show up. (Maybe they appear inside the ogre's stomach, so you can't see them?)  You have to view them and hit 'e' to see their damage to tell if they're buffed.  It makes moving them back onto buff beams less fun.

Right now my main use for ogres is standing on their heads.

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@Martiman89 quote:[...]What I think would be a good amount of dmg for the SND is a bit more than one Harpoon[...]

I was thinking about equal DPS since Harpoon Turrets are way stronger than any other defenses. However, a slightly higher DPS (+10%) is also fine and way more reasonable than current beta SNDs. crzy mentioned (in one of the threads we were discussing) that a single Bouncer Blockades would have a similar DPS output therefore SND received that insane damage boost.

He is right about the DPS but ignored the drawback of the Bouncer Blockade; extreme low range. In worst case Ogres stop in front of Bouncer Blockades attacking them without being hit by the Blockade. Sharken are easily able to move them. Multi-target tower but due to extreme low range more a single-target tower than anything else.

I believe eliminating this drawback is worth four defense units. Building Bouncer Blockade or SND becomes a situational choice when they are dealing similar DPS.


@Martiman89 quote:It should however have quite a bit more health than the harpoon. The Advantages of the SND then are simply the higher healthpool and the wider blocking region.

Harpoon Turret is very healthy such as Bouncer Blockade. A health reduction for these towers would be a better option BUT its probably too late to nerf it after that long time. If I remember correct health of Bouncer Blockade is a bit higher than from SND, if so health should be at least as high. On the other hand SNDs will be hit less often than Bouncer Blockades. So it's a draw for me.


@Martiman89 quote:You should be able to replace the SND with 2 Harpoons and have higher DPS. Because the SND is not primarily a singletarget DPS tower. It can block enimies at a wider angle and also attack more monters that stand next to eachother. Where the 2 Harps would only attack one or two of the enemies at once when they get really close, simply because it doesnt have such a wide attack.

Perfect, finally someone with common sense :)


@Martiman89 quote:Also I dont think every tower can be viable. Because as soon as you get the bouncer blokade the spike is outclassed. Which is fine, because they basically do the same thing and BB is the higher "tier"-tower. Then comes the SND which should outclass the BB at wider choke points, since it basicaly does the same thing again.

Thanks, that's exactly my thought. Towers don't have to be a viable option all the time at all states of the game.

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@ddace quote:So if it helps, we can have a poll specific to this change to get a good feel one way or another.

Facepalm...


The CDT, just LOL... If you want to keep current beta DSTs you should be able to underline your point of view, at best outweigh my concerns and thoughts. Nobody even has tried it yet, instead the CDT creates a poll which will be easily abused the one or other way if anyone wants to enforce a change.


I don't even participate at this farce. That's how they want to enforce their change.


Creating that poll shows that you and the CDT still has no clue about the effect of lowering rate of fire. Fact is; Current Beta DSTs are less effective due to lower rate of fire. If a build worked flawlessly with 2k stats and the same build does not work at all with almost 6k stats when something went extremely wrong. Is it so hard for the CDT to accept this? Are you that numberphile that you only see damage numbers?


What's the point of lowering rate of fire therefore lowering tower DPS but to compensate it increasing damage by more than 300% when you simply could slightly increase rate of fire and slightly increase damage numbers to hit equally tower DPS numbers at the end? Fact is; Current Beta DSTs lose 94-97% of their damage potential because they are shooting enemies with 100k health most of the times.


Facepalm deluxe...


In the meanwhile I don't expect anyone to actually try answering why decreasing rate of fire is a good choice. I lose my faith into the CDT more and more when they are not even able to underline their view on the matter.


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So you're saying they are acting against the "majority's" opinion but you laugh at the idea to make a poll and check if it's really what the majority wants ?



@Acen

I don't know what to chose between those 2 since in both cases I don't like the tower and would rather like a rework than just tweaks on firing rate and power.

Keep - I want to use it more as is and possibly tweak in the future.

Revert - I dont like the current change but would like to revisit other possible changes in the future.

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@Akasame quote:

So you're saying they are acting against the "majority's" opinion but you laugh at the idea to make a poll and check if it's really what the majority wants ?

Cause that poll cant be manipulated easily? Come on...


If anyone wants to keep that change you should have the balls to speak it out loud and underline your view on the matter instead of simply ignoring all the facts which has been given here and in different other threads. My concerns and thoughts has been NOT outweigh by anyone yet, not even tried by anyone. BUT now they are trying to hide behind such a serious poll to enforce a change a lot of people don't want.


Looking at these changes the CDT does I'm afraid they are capable to overview the consequences and proves my thought some are absolutely misplaced there. Go, look out for another hobby than ripping a game.


You say the CDT kept DD alive? There is a ***ing drop of the playerbase of 50% since they have the power. Needless to say the blame Trendy for that since the community has been split with version 8.0. It's naive to think we have lost 200 mac players just due to that. I'm ***ing pissed not only because they ignore the DST change but also because you have to be on the table to bring suggestions and ideas. Go ruin another game.

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@Akasame quote:

@Acen

I don't know what to chose between those 2 since in both cases I don't like the tower and would rather like a rework than just tweaks on firing rate and power.

Keep - I want to use it more as is and possibly tweak in the future.

Revert - I dont like the current change but would like to revisit other possible changes in the future.

LOL is that even an option to keep it and tweak later? What the ***ing hell do they think patch #3 takes to be released? Another half year with a broken game? The DST is ***ing USELESS now.


The way it works has been changed by Trendy long time ago. Don't ***ing change its targeting method.

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@EagleOne quote:


@Akasame quote:

So you're saying they are acting against the "majority's" opinion but you laugh at the idea to make a poll and check if it's really what the majority wants ?

Cause that poll cant be manipulated easily? Come on...

I don't believe the CDT would manipulate the poll.


If anyone wants to keep that change you should have the balls to speak it out loud

It's not a matter of balls. Some people can't be bothered to write a post to argue with you and would rather just be asked than having a text fight with others.


There is a ***ing drop of the playerbase of 50% since they have the power.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Why not have a poll about how satisfied we are about CDT's work ? :)

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@Akasame quote:

I don't believe the CDT would manipulate the poll.


Like they wouldn't ignore things or actually doing things requested by the community? I don't see any request to change DST, I don't see any request to change TBB, I don't see any request to buff health of golden enemies. They are doing things they like to see themselves.


@Akasame quote:

It's not a matter of balls. Some people can't be bothered to write a post to argue with you and would rather just be asked than having a text fight with others.

I'm hard but fair if anyone can explain me why a certain change is good and required. I have strong believes therefore I always underline my thoughts. If you can't outweigh them I keep my believes as they stay true. The people who agree to the beta DST are people who don't use them now. They won't use them later, they have no experience to compare live and beta SNDs, I do. Some like Caimon don't even bothered to check changes but blubber'ing anyways. It's like I have no clue about rocket science yet I tell the NASA how to do things.


@Akasame quote:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Why not have a poll about how satisfied we are about CDT's work ? :)

Just a minority is here at the forums, lots of people are bootlicking. Some things have been done great but others not. Period. I do see more harm than anything else with current tower changes.

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Just logged back in after a long long long very long pause to this site, first I off I think Pew and me are the ones who used the aprentice the most, period, I have a few builds that work fine, will they remain to work fine? No, I don't know what to say because I am really not that active in this game anymore and some might say "Then butt out" BUT I am a player and OWNER of this game.

Some changes are very good, the changes to towers is a thing that should be tested by CDT AND experienced players alike, I really hope that they won't implement the changes to the DST tower.


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    First off: 6k stat DSTs on beta shoot faster than 2k stat DSTs on live, and (obviously) deal far more damage.  So it's most assuredly NOT the DST change that causes your build that "works flawlessly" at 2k stats to fail at 6k, because they are quite simply perfectly superior towers at that point.

    Now then...does the rate reduction hurt the DST's ability to kill trash mobs? Yes.  Is this a problem?  For me...no.  In fact, it's a good thing in my eyes - the DST shouldn't be able to keep up if you point it at a gigantic horde of enemies, in the same way that an Electric Aura or Proximity Mine shouldn't be able to kill an endgame survival Ogre by itself in any reasonable amount of time.  They're simply not designed to do these things.

    Before this change, the DST flat-out lost in DPS to the fireball and harpoon, even without accounting for the DU costs.  This meant that it was restricted to one gimmick only, which is its wall piercing.  Now, it beats both of those towers...for single target purposes.  In exchange, it loses a small amount of attack rate (seriously, it's not that big of a hit...).  I feel like this is a worthy trade.

    There are so many towers in the game already that can wipe out hordes of trash mobs, whether it's through piercing damage (harpoon), splash damage (fireball), attacks focused on certain areas (proxy mine, inferno trap, electric aura), or even a tower that can chain-zap 50+ enemies at once (Lightning Tower - which was also buffed).  These are the towers that should be used to clean out the trash, not the slow, strong DST.  In fact, with such high damage on the DST now, it may well be able to kill Djinn by itself when they try to desummon your towers.  This creates more opportunities to use it (in conjunction with traps and/or auras in the lanes to kill trash faster for example), not less.  It also gains increased viability with the new golden enemy change, where the damage buff will go to work on the golden wyverns and other enemies that your auras/traps may need help against.

    Would simply increasing the rate and damage slightly instead of decreasing the rate and greatly increasing the damage produce a more effective tower?  Yes.  Does the golden enemy change make the game harder?  Probably.  However, if we just wanted to unilaterally buff everything...well, you said it yourself - that's what Eternity did.  We all know how that turned out.  Instead, what we did was further strengthen its "niche" - slow, strong projectiles that pierce walls.  It had the first and third originally, but was rather lacking in the second compared to other towers.

    Calling it useless now is, quite simply, hyperbole.  If that small reduction in rate really affects you that much...well, if it's really overkilling enemies by that much, it shouldn't be an issue to take some points out of damage and put it into rate, right? 

    And finally - keep it civil, please.  Outright antagonizing people who are voluntarily putting hours of their lives to create patches for this game over one change isn't going to help your case any.

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Well according to the poll Acen and the CDT created the playerbase is kinda torn, at the moment there is a slight win for reverting back to the old state.

Maybe this could be further worked on during a next patch? Like I said I am not that active anymore but I think that this is the best option for the time being.

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