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The last 2 waves on Unholy Catacombs, when it said that I cleansed the red knights, they didnt actually die. I thought It was just a graphic but on the 6th wave, but the final wave the thing actually killed my crystal with 1 mob left. Fix this buggy crap please. 

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@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

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@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:


@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

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@Zimmermann quote:


@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:


@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

Mine are currently at 5060 dps tier 1. They seem a lot better

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@Huckleberry4u quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:


@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

Mine are currently at 5060 dps tier 1. They seem a lot better

if yours are 5k then you had 3.5k before the patch. so you are up 1.5k dps. Mine are 4.9k (got a small upgrade) before the patch they were 3.4k.

Are you seriously saying these are balanced with Proton Beams? 

Now with that amazing buff you speak of, squire shockwave is now taking off half an ogre's hp... but LA gets 1.5k dps increase?!?! really that balancing? Come on man be realistic.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@Huckleberry4u quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:


@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

Mine are currently at 5060 dps tier 1. They seem a lot better

if yours are 5k then you had 3.5k before the patch. so you are up 1.5k dps. Mine are 4.9k (got a small upgrade) before the patch they were 3.4k.

Are you seriously saying these are balanced with Proton Beams? 

Now with that amazing buff you speak of, squire shockwave is now taking off half an ogre's hp... but LA gets 1.5k dps increase?!?! really that balancing? Come on man be realistic.

maybe go into the testing group or give some proper feedback instead of spewing bullsht everywhere.

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@donCamillo quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@Huckleberry4u quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:


@Stankface quote:

Fix this buggy crap please. 

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

Mine are currently at 5060 dps tier 1. They seem a lot better

if yours are 5k then you had 3.5k before the patch. so you are up 1.5k dps. Mine are 4.9k (got a small upgrade) before the patch they were 3.4k.

Are you seriously saying these are balanced with Proton Beams? 

Now with that amazing buff you speak of, squire shockwave is now taking off half an ogre's hp... but LA gets 1.5k dps increase?!?! really that balancing? Come on man be realistic.

maybe go into the testing group or give some proper feedback instead of spewing bullsht everywhere.

Sorry bull*** due to my qqing, or bull*** due to me being factually incorrect?
I can respect that you do not like negative posts, but if you think I am factually inaccurate... then you are playing another game.


I have given countless amounts of feedback but when it comes to this level of basic balancing being completely wrong... what the hell can you do. 

I will draw an analogy, if you have two cars, 1 a V12 BMW and the other a Nissan corsa, and your "balance solution" is to give the Nissan Corsa new tires.. rather then a V8... then you are not really capable of assessing balance.

3.5k LA to 5k =/= EV2 Beams.

6.8k LA's during the 1 day leaked buff, was also =/= EV2 Beams, reducing that buff to 5k is the same as giving a Nissan Corsa new tires and polishing the Nissan logo and then expecting it to perform to the same level as a BMW V12.


Lets just be clear here, they have testing facilities, such as maps where they can simply run monsters from A to B and place defenses and see how they perform.
If you place 5 rank1 LA's back to back from a ipwr lvl 700 monk, then place 5 rank1 beam nodes (or whatever is equal in green mana) also from a 700 ipwr EV2. you will see that 1 does better then the other. Its that simple to balance numbers, literally that simple. 

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@Zimmermann quote:

Lets just be clear here, they have testing facilities, such as maps where they can simply run monsters from A to B and place defenses and see how they perform.

If you place 5 rank1 LA's back to back from a ipwr lvl 700 monk, then place 5 rank1 beam nodes (or whatever is equal in green mana) also from a 700 ipwr EV2. you will see that 1 does better then the other. Its that simple to balance numbers, literally that simple. 

It's not really that simple to compare, if you consider the different functionalities of the towers. If you just compare at a 1:1 ratio, then the Apprentice's flameburst should have exactly the same damage and speed as the squire's cannon tower, but you'd also need to consider the aoe as well as cost.

I agree that the buff is lackluster, but I don't think that comparison of yours is anywhere near reasonable.

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@Dresira quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

Lets just be clear here, they have testing facilities, such as maps where they can simply run monsters from A to B and place defenses and see how they perform.

If you place 5 rank1 LA's back to back from a ipwr lvl 700 monk, then place 5 rank1 beam nodes (or whatever is equal in green mana) also from a 700 ipwr EV2. you will see that 1 does better then the other. Its that simple to balance numbers, literally that simple. 

It's not really that simple to compare, if you consider the different functionalities of the towers. If you just compare at a 1:1 ratio, then the Apprentice's flameburst should have exactly the same damage and speed as the squire's cannon tower, but you'd also need to consider the aoe as well as cost.

I agree that the buff is lackluster, but I don't think that comparison of yours is anywhere near reasonable.

comparing EV2 beams to Monk LA's is not reasonable? They do exactly the same thing, both AOE, both are ground only and both cover about the same amount of area both... are bad vs single target well nearly... Proton beam is solid vs ogres, LA's are terrible. Now let me be clear here, LA's are 10 mana cheaper and you would need to factor in Frosty Power, so without Frosty power they should be worse.

I would actually say that LA vs proton beam is about as close as two different defenses can be at providing the exact same job and having the same utility, its an extremely reasonable example.
It is made even more reasonable that I expect nothing more monks doing 50% that of Proton beam... but they are not.. they are doing maybe 10 to 15%.

Comparing Cannons to Flamethrower is not the same, while comparing flameburst is close, but again the AOE makes them quite different, as does the spheres.

This is why you test vs an environment such as a "test lane", you can compare defenses against each other with exactly the same mana costs.

anyway give it 2 weeks if nothing changes sadly the meta will prove me right.

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For the record, LA is not ground only, it's perfectly capable of blowing up air units.


The proton beam and the LA also don't cover the same amount of ground.  The proton beam is a straight line, while the LA is a (roughly) half-sphere.  The coverage is much greater for the LA if you're comparing it to a two-node proton beam, which only affects a small strip of land.


To me, the reason that the proton beam far outshines the lightning aura is simple - for a small amount of extra mana, I can trail one piece of the proton beam back through my buff beam (where all my cannons are) and it will apply the buff to all 10 nodes.  Similarly, it costs far less to upgrade a 10-node proton beam than an equivalent amount of LA nodes, simply because all 10 upgrade together.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@Huckleberry4u quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

Lightning aura is just as bad as before the patch, 1.4k dps is not bringing it to the level of beams/archers. do you actually even play this game?

Mine are currently at 5060 dps tier 1. They seem a lot better

if yours are 5k then you had 3.5k before the patch. so you are up 1.5k dps. Mine are 4.9k (got a small upgrade) before the patch they were 3.4k.

Are you seriously saying these are balanced with Proton Beams? 

Yes.
Proton beams do not have any elemental combos. Proton beams have terrible d pow scaling, and insane D crit scaling. That's why no one upgrades them or uses frosties on them in a meta fashion. LA's however can tick stupidly high damage in a lane with several frosts. Throw in a couple of geysers and SAs and all you need to do now is watch air. And you could do that since they removed resistances, and in phys resistant lanes prior. It never stopped working, just got outclassed by rams over geysers, and archers over LAs due to supreme coverage and no need for frost. Are you suggesting the LA should hit as hard normally as the proton beam does critically? For the cost of just one node? Along with its forementioned elemental and frost synergies? 

U crazy. kobold.png

And, to that end, I would say you're fighting the wrong battle. (I havent hard spec'd LA in awhile, just kept my monk to SA for reasons listed above) But I recall being just under 3.4k pre patch. I am now 4.4k post patch. Both are more then viable when used properly. I was hoping for a range buff instead to be honest. Meanwhile, LSA is still almost impossible to smartly incorporate into a build, even with a proper harbinger fist weapon - I've yet to get a perfect one, but the couple that rerolled from prepatch aren't doing it for me. It's just too niche of a defense in a game that needs nothing like it currently. Did you see those other ubers though? Heavy Cannons and ele chaos are insane now. I'm slightly bummed LSA didnt get more love this patch. That being said, did you watch the devstream friday? This is just the first itteration. No need for such kneejerk reactions.

Sometimes I wonder if open alpha was the was to go. I'm reading some very bizarre things posted since the last patch. Do people even know what they want? Do I even know what I want?

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LA + Geysier + 2 Chaos traps +2 frosties on each lane, this is 160 DU and last night i cleared 1k IPWR maps easily, even without taking care of the hard lane. With proton beams i need 2 full sets to kill the big mobs and that is 220 DU.

The only part where Protons is sstronger than LA is that flying kobolds nosedive into the ground.

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@LikeThatWhenIGotHere quote:

Yeah, that was a known issue going into the release. Should have been listed in the known issues section as I passed off about a thousand issues.

As for the "Fix this buggy crap please", naw think I'll make you suffer for a bit.

You. You I like lol.

@stretchyalien quote:

To me, the reason that the proton beam far outshines the lightning aura is simple - for a small amount of extra mana, I can trail one piece of the proton beam back through my buff beam (where all my cannons are) and it will apply the buff to all 10 nodes.  Similarly, it costs far less to upgrade a 10-node proton beam than an equivalent amount of LA nodes, simply because all 10 upgrade together.

There are a lot of reasons that proton beams beat LA. Having built in CC, having higher DPS, having ungodly higher crit damage, crit damage not scaling with upgrades (so not needing upgrades). Also, being smaller means you can layer beams to hit targets with multiple beams. Auras size actualy work against them because you can't layer them. Many other reasons... but different discussion.

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@Jothi92 quote:

LA + Geysier + 2 Chaos traps +2 frosties on each lane, this is 160 DU and last night i cleared 1k IPWR maps easily, even without taking care of the hard lane. With proton beams i need 2 full sets to kill the big mobs and that is 220 DU.

The only part where Protons is sstronger than LA is that flying kobolds nosedive into the ground.

Chaos are significantly stronger now. They, combined with the drenched combo is what is making that a powerful combo. Not really the LA.

Also, frosties apply to protons as well, which still do higher damage even without the crit. And without needing a passive to up their damage. If you have the frosty node passive, which would be an equal comparison to the amped passive, create 2 side by side 50 DU beams that run down the monster path with 2 frosties. There are more DU efficient builds, but this is the most comparable as its a SIMILAR build with same 160 DU cost. I promise you this will kill everything short of an ogre (and depending on RNG with the freezes, may even kill the ogre) with the same gear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from outraged about the buff, its a step towards making them comparable, but we'd be lieing to ourselves if we said LA's and proton beams were really on the same level.

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@Zimmermann quote:

comparing EV2 beams to Monk LA's is not reasonable? They do exactly the same thing, both AOE, both are ground only and both cover about the same amount of area both... are bad vs single target well nearly... Proton beam is solid vs ogres, LA's are terrible. Now let me be clear here, LA's are 10 mana cheaper and you would need to factor in Frosty Power, so without Frosty power they should be worse.

I would actually say that LA vs proton beam is about as close as two different defenses can be at providing the exact same job and having the same utility, its an extremely reasonable example.
It is made even more reasonable that I expect nothing more monks doing 50% that of Proton beam... but they are not.. they are doing maybe 10 to 15%.

I disagree with your idea that comparing the beam to LA is close, they may do somewhat the same job, but they have significantly different ways of going about that, just like Flameburst/cannon. 

Consider when comparing:

Comboable dmg type?

LA: Lightning -> Electrified

Beam: Basic

Attack type:

Both quick ticks on entering field of effect

Area of effect

Beam: None, but can hit multiple targets within a beam

Aura: None, but can hit multiple targets within the field

Cost

Beam: 10 per node + 10 initial cost, up to 110 for a full length beam.

Aura: 30

Can overlap?

Beam: Nodes limit it, but the beams can be crossed.

Aura: Cannot place an aura within another, but they can overlap

Placement style

Beam: Nodes channeling to eachother

Aura: Central node

Coverage style

Beam:  Beam between nodes

Aura: Spherical field expanded from central node in all directions.

Gound only?

Beam: Effectively yes.

Aura: In some places.

Passive options

Beam: None that I've seen

Aura: Increased radius, increased tick rate.

The way they cover their given area as well as their elemental differences makes them significantly different, and the more you have to cover, the cheaper it gets to use auras, but factor in geyser trap and you've got a comparable cost, but then you'd have to mention that it's no longer a flat comparison between. You also have to consider their respective placement style, the beam can be overstacked in a small area or spread out in a larger area, while the aura is significantly more static, this makes for a poor comparison when talking about handling ogres, by the same way of comparison, I can say that LA is overpowered, because it has a comboable element, and beam does not, granted that's a bit ridiculous to do, but I think so is doing flat comparisons between LA and beam.

Again, I don't think the aura is where it should be, but I also don't think your comparison is as reasonable as you make it out to be. 

AR15 and a glock both do the exact same thing, they both shoot things and they both use bullets to do it.

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@Dresira quote:

Again, I don't think the aura is where it should be, but I also don't think your comparison is as reasonable as you make it out to be. 

Lets agree to disagree, but one thing I think you should confront is this: if you need a ground only defense on lets say a map like Bastille on NM4, do you pick beams or Lightning Auras? Remember you are picking the defenses to have the best chance of success.
Reasons why you chose one rather then the other would also be nice to know.

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whatever you say.

I will just continue to clear nm4 incursion easily with LA as my primary dmg defense

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@xArcAngel quote:


@Jothi92 quote:

LA + Geysier + 2 Chaos traps +2 frosties on each lane, this is 160 DU and last night i cleared 1k IPWR maps easily, even without taking care of the hard lane. With proton beams i need 2 full sets to kill the big mobs and that is 220 DU.

The only part where Protons is sstronger than LA is that flying kobolds nosedive into the ground.

Chaos are significantly stronger now. They, combined with the drenched combo is what is making that a powerful combo. Not really the LA.

But if you take out the LA it makes the chaos less effective.  Every piece is what makes this combo strong, take out one element and it no longer acts as intended.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@Dresira quote:

Again, I don't think the aura is where it should be, but I also don't think your comparison is as reasonable as you make it out to be. 

Lets agree to disagree, but one thing I think you should confront is this: if you need a ground only defense on lets say a map like Bastille on NM4, do you pick beams or Lightning Auras? Remember you are picking the defenses to have the best chance of success.
Reasons why you chose one rather then the other would also be nice to know.

Your fixation on only the damage aspect is impressive. 

How would a perfectly balanced LA be in your mind?

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@Dresira quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@Dresira quote:

Again, I don't think the aura is where it should be, but I also don't think your comparison is as reasonable as you make it out to be. 

Lets agree to disagree, but one thing I think you should confront is this: if you need a ground only defense on lets say a map like Bastille on NM4, do you pick beams or Lightning Auras? Remember you are picking the defenses to have the best chance of success.
Reasons why you chose one rather then the other would also be nice to know.

Your fixation on only the damage aspect is impressive. 

How would a perfectly balanced LA be in your mind?

I am aware that I do not know everything or even close to a lot about this game, so am utterly aware my opinion could simply be wrong. But at least have the intellectual honesty to answer my question first, rather then trying to dodge a question that we both know what the answer will be.

I am aware of the scaling from frosties on LA's, I was not aware of the extent that Geyser's had on them.. so I could be wrong with my damage breakdown with all relevant buffs applied. I do like that mechanic style, so I have no problem with the concept. However, when it comes to path of least resistance, spamming down some beams for instant OP results is not quite the same as gearing up 3 characters switching endlessly between them to create a synergy of doom, that at best is the same (though possibly cheaper) then a bunch of EV2 beams. 

So in closing and to answer your question, I would expect 200 worth of mana of  lightning aura's with frosties to be pulling numbers that are just over half of that of the equivalent mana cost of proton beams.

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@Zimmermann quote:



 However, when it comes to path of least resistance, spamming down some beams for instant OP results is not quite the same as gearing up 3 characters switching endlessly between them to create a synergy of doom, that at best is the same (though possibly cheaper) then a bunch of EV2 beams. 

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, and why I said the LA isn't where I think it should be. I don't think it should be at the exact level of a proton beam, because of the combo availability of the LA, but going for that combo should be stronger than a simple beam setup, to account for the increased effort and time.

I was not aware of the extent that Geyser's had on them..

That's another combo aspect, the knockup allows for the cooldown of the stun to fade as well as mines to recharge, giving even more time for both the LA and the mines to wreck the mobs, so while the LA doesn't have as much dps, the mobs can linger for much longer.

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@Dresira quote:


@Zimmermann quote:



 However, when it comes to path of least resistance, spamming down some beams for instant OP results is not quite the same as gearing up 3 characters switching endlessly between them to create a synergy of doom, that at best is the same (though possibly cheaper) then a bunch of EV2 beams. 

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, and why I said the LA isn't where I think it should be. I don't think it should be at the exact level of a proton beam, because of the combo availability of the LA, but going for that combo should be stronger than a simple beam setup, to account for the increased effort and time.

I was not aware of the extent that Geyser's had on them..

That's another combo aspect, the knockup allows for the cooldown of the stun to fade as well as mines to recharge, giving even more time for both the LA and the mines to wreck the mobs, so while the LA doesn't have as much dps, the mobs can linger for much longer.

then we agree :)

LA is not strong enough, but with complex combo should be stronger then a singular defense type aka beams. I just am not sure how buff beam interacts with proton beam, because if it scales well, then its again to much simplicity for such a strong effect.

Now just to be clear, I am able so far to complete all NM4 incursions that I have tried with squire walls, monk builder (LA's SA's and AA) and frosties. However some maps are a hell of a lot harder to complete then lets say with EV2 beams, AL archers and a random waller.
Ideally I would like to see people playing in multiplayer with completely different defenses, but as it stands its mainly EV2 and AL builders.

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Also, keep in mind that thus is only step 1 in making 1st 4 heroes like the new heros. I think it is just a matter of regearing and finding the right tower combos for the time being.

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But, getting back to the original post, I have had, what I call, the "100% invulnerable knight" bug happen on all waves starting on wave 1. What me and my group of 3-4 players in public match nm4 inc also noticed is that the buff would heal the core. Don't know if that happened every time, tho. But, even being able yo heal the vote, we still lost...like 2-4 seconds after healing the core on wave 5. 


Sounds like [[63962,users]] is aware if this and I hope it will be patched by next Tuesday (or whenever their next patch is planned).

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