Jump to content

Buried Bastille is encouraging solo and/or private play...in a multiplayer game.


Recommended Posts

Or, at the very least, duo play.

Let's face it, going by the several topics here about people showing off their completion timers, it's evident that the map is easiest when played as solo or a duo with a friend. Unless you're grouping with 3 other friends and/or plan ahead in the hub which almost no one ever does, the map gets significantly harder the more players there are and the map timer doesn't change according to number of players, yet the number of enemies shoots up significantly.

Until the server browser hits, playing this map with random pubs is a nightmare. When I click on quick match random map and it puts me into this with a full team, I'm already expecting things to go south even before we start the first wave.

You might be thinking, "But you get a sense of accomplishment/satisfaction/epeen stroking/self fulfillment when you finish it with random pubs because it's so difficult!". Yeah, I do, only for the first couple of times. After that, it simply becomes tiring and a chore to have to go through the same frustration repeatedly.

My proposal: Increase the map timer according to how many people there are, possibly 10-20s per player. This makes up for the increase in number of enemies and other multiplayer-based things, such as people not readying up straight away after a wave, or planning time to discuss who to build what.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Or at least make a REAL monsterfest out of it by deleting that core. This should be focused on killing heroes. Now it is just a mix out of 1 core map, limited live and timer.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill play devils advocate


There is communication, utilize it. The timer doesn't start until someone activates a chest. Use that time to quickly plan out who builds what/where.

I'm going to bring up Destiny, although DD2 is quite different. They share similarities between wanting a more cooperative focus for players. In Destiny there was a raid, hardest of the content & you needed communication in able to succeed. No communication & you would fail inevitably. Especially withs pubs.

I brought that up because this new incursion is the hardest of the content we have in a cooperative based game, it requires some communication.


I'll admit, there are some wonky things that could use some tweaking ie; mobs get stuck in spawn, not being able to instantly start the next wave.

But I actually had a faster time completion with 4 players, we communicated what & where we should build & who covers what lane. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=708653422 <--- pic of our completion time.


The idea you suggested of adding 10-20 seconds per player just doesn't really seem all to worth it. Youre looking at 30 seconds to a minute & even with that change. Being with pubs who you don't communicate with all that much (or may even be undergeared) with will probably likely still result in a failure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Dreizehn quote:

Or at least make a REAL monsterfest out of it by deleting that core. This should be focused on killing heroes. Now it is just a mix out of 1 core map, limited live and timer.. 

lol everyone would just prime up their ev2 proton charge & disintegrate everything before it gets to them EVICon.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Dewkin quote:
snip

I should probably have been more specific.

There is communication among pubs, but it's usually rushed and half-done because of how wonky the map timer is - there was once it started and nobody had opened a chest yet. As and when that gets fixed, the extra time I proposed isn't exactly for the pre-wave planning, it's more for giving a slight leeway to the randomness of pubs and not knowing how geared or how experienced they are, and for the increased number of mobs since they spawn in waves and thus takes longer to clear.

I understand that raids in other games are top of the top in terms of difficulty and obviously require communication between the party. I've watched my cousin raid in FF14 so I know how important communication, or at least knowing what to do, is. But in those games there tend to be several gimmicks that you need to watch out for which makes the battle difficult - when to apply a particular status to prevent boss healing, scripted AoE attacks, positioning of the tank, who to priorities in healing, damage checks, how to PROPERLY free a teammate from a scripted boss CC attack, etc. Many of the gimmicks interact with each other and some can only be seen/predicted by visual cues, which I find interesting in creating challenge because you always have to be paying attention.
Here, it's just a single gimmick, which, in my opinion, represents more artificial difficulty instead of an actual challenge. I don't consider the damage reflecting shield as a gimmick because it's so flawed at the moment and downright ridiculous (ohai lemme just reflect damage to anything on the map INCLUDING YOUR MOLTEN COOOOOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!).

All in all, it still doesn't change the fact that, ruling out communication, the map is easiest to solo/duo. In what other game has its most difficult map/raid be the easiest to complete with as few members as possible?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Each incursion has had a gimmick or mechanic of some sort. This one's is a timer. In game design there is true difficulty and arbitrary difficulty. Difficult involves full use of all things at ones disposal, capitalizing on weaknesses, and playing up strengths - genre dependant. Arbitrary difficulty is just beefing up numbers without introducing anything new. This could be beefing up health, or damage taken insanely (Think Skyrim master difficulty, or Dark Souls I, fighting the first boss before getting any gear), or reducing free time, or introducing a timer.

This map is a fine example of arbitrary difficulty. It is by far the hardest of the new incursions (and all, I would say, right up there with temple incursion). I had my proper frustrations making attempts on the map solo and blind, not reading anyone's builds or advice. The first 2 runs were a question of not enough time with a spread but full defense (seriously, have you considered players might not have optimal connections, and that build placement can be a nightmare!?), and the next few runs were builds built faster and faster with less time spent in build phase doing so. All failed as well, with one time out, and one mysterious crystal explosion unwitnessed. The final few runs were spent just placing walls and SA (10 seconds of build phase) then focusing on building archers before switching to a DPS. I had so many things slip past, through, or inbetween walls (which to be fair is a problem with the game, not the map) that I got far too salty and quit. 

For context I've played since last September, and can solo the previous two new incursions in my sleep. I avoid the proton beam cheese, but with 42k archers, 350% and 325% explosive arrows, a SA monk with 4.2k dpow and a 380% purge, large range, 367k squire walls, a 4,2k dpow frost mage with +96 FF/46% FP/18% SS, I have not found any need for yet another overpowered builder (based on a bug) in my build repertoire. I stick her to DPS. Remember when everything was easy for normal 4 heroes after they got rid of resistances but before people got their abyss lords earned/leveled? Geyser/LA/frost did just as fine as archer spam, save for air coverage. But this incursion is now difficult for most because of the contrived arbitrary difficulty that no one asked for (I know that's wrong, someone did), a timer.

I was really bummed I couldn't master it after a dozen or so attempts. I wish I could've adapted to and mastered the timer for the sake of overall efficiency, and well, time...For all of you out there who have solod or group cleared this good for you. I don't want to call johns on my connection alone, surely playstyle and build account for much here, but I tried changing mine up a fair bit to no avail. My bottom line take away about this incursion is that adding a timer instead of some mcguffin gathering mechanic or whatever feels like a serious cop out design wise, and that I can't beat it makes me feel like a terribad - and I'm often critical of those who ask for enemy/map nerfs... I think I'm done till the next patch. *feelsbadman*

EDIT: Got back to it and beat it using other people's ideas and builds. I still contend that the timer for a single incursion was a poor gimmick to go with - particularly compared to the previous new incursions, additionally this mechanic also could've been used for a different mode or variant on all maps later, But in the current state of the game timers are nightmares to players without ideal connections. But with all that being said, the new weapon is fun, the new map is notably harder (incursion or not), which was frustrating compared to the game's normal learning curve, but fun to master eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Dewkin quote:


@Dreizehn quote:

Or at least make a REAL monsterfest out of it by deleting that core. This should be focused on killing heroes. Now it is just a mix out of 1 core map, limited live and timer.. 

lol everyone would just prime up their ev2 proton charge & disintegrate everything before it gets to them EVICon.png

Balancing is not so great atm anyway. Did you play DD1 monsterfest? If yes you know what I mean. :-) At fiest I was against the build timers in here but in DD1 we hardly had time to build anyway and no hotswapping.

If balanced correctly this incursion shoukd have additional strong enemies. A core is is just wrong for this kind of mode. Sadly we cannot tell for sure until the full revamp hits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@Dewkin quote:
snip


All in all, it still doesn't change the fact that, ruling out communication, the map is easiest to solo/duo. In what other game has its most difficult map/raid be the easiest to complete with as few members as possible?

You bring up a good point, none to little games do have the hardest content able to be solo'd. But that's why I like DD2, its got the cooperative play connotation to it but Trendy still made it optional for solo player, which I'm a huge fan of. Some days I'm a grump & would prefer grinding for gear solo orc.png

Like I said, 10-20 seconds per player is not adding a whole lot, still keeps the mode difficult & a tad easier for random matches. If Trendy takes your idea I wouldn't mind.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you play this map with randoms.

And my proton beams easilly solo every lane no matter 3 of 4 players :s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what we really need to promote cooperative play is something along the lines of what diablo had

The more players you have, the slightly higher the difficulty gets & the better the drop rate of legendries/higher ipwr drops. 

Edit: this is my 100th post Emoji_WarBoar.png    No longer a junior defender, also why ive been posting quite a bit on here :p ill stop now


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, usually it's the other way around, having 4 DPS/Tanks always goes a long way on any other map. I'm quite happy that there is also a map that encourages solo and organized teamplay. I don't see why every map has to be easier and more rewarding with a random group. There are bound to be maps that need a decent organization, cooperation and build order, and public groups will suck on those maps and there is nothing wrong with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmm... I like this new Inc. I think this map encourages cooperative play the most.


I agree with all Dewkin said. Although solo seems like a sure win, solo is NOT the best option. In fact, playing it solo is just a little bit better than playing this map on quick match with players dropping you the mana. Sure, anyone can solo it with 200+ seconds left but all the workload is on you. Best is to group up with people who knows what to do. Try it with your DD2 steam friends or communicate in advance with ur party in town.


Just try it with a good group. I promise you, the workload is so light, the game finishes faster, there is less running, and you'd never want to play this map solo again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First I said there should no timer during build phases. Now I think it would be ok if there were no core

 I forgotto compare with the original monster fest. ^^

Once we have lobbies etc we even can talk about tactics in a public game just before starting the map. That's what we did in DD1.

For me the problem is not the timer but the core.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played it solo... got a build down.  But, solo get's boring, so I open up a pub.  Sorry, but too many idiots in this game.  I took the time to explain.  And trust me, I am not bullish about it.  I first ask "Who is building", when they say they can't or something like that, I explain...  

"Ok.  I will build.  Just drop the mana at the crystal and I will pick it up there.  Don't G, until I G.  Then, after the game starts, just G as quick as you can.  Thanks"


First, they just jump to a chest and open it... and I haven't even made it to the preferred starting spot.

Second, sometimes, they will start to build anyways.  When, it was talked about and decided who is going to build.

Third, sometimes, while I am starting to build... they ALL G right away.  So, I only have half of the build done and it starts.

Fourthly, you always get that one player that will still not G right away between rounds.


Of course, I do not have this problem with the friends that I regularly play with.


I like the map and the idea.  I just wish that I can find better people in pubs for this map.  


wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally agree with @keyy <3

The best would be to play with other people you know, group up at the start of wave 5 and gang down the boss for a easy game. You have around 12 seconds to attack the boss freely before he put up a reflecting shield at the start after leaving spawn zone, after this he will spend around 7 seconds between end of reflect shield before putting it up again from my experience so far.


I streamed playing the new map yesterday and I invited the viewers to join my game and Impact.teamspeak.de so we could easilly communicate. 

Was no problem :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Won 99% of the time joining pubs if I build and tell them what to do. Only loss really is if people keep dying. Lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@sozieqt quote:


The best would be to play with other people you know, group up at the start of wave 5 and gang down the boss for a easy game.

Um...this was the entire point I was trying to make - that this map is an absolute nightmare to play with pubs, and that it's better to either solo it, or form a party beforehand with the crappy matchmaking system we have now.

I'd bring up the example of raid battles in other games but it would literally be repeating an earlier post.

There's no doubt that as time passes and things get fixed, the map will become easier to complete even with pubs as more and more builds get publicised to help those struggling to clear it. Until that happens, it's immensely frustrating to click on quick match and get thrown into this incursion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OMG so awesome when people don't drop mana for builders or don't G up after you ask 5 times or f******* go AFK... or perma stun mobs miles away from towers and do crap dps or leechers comes in.

GO GO private!!

Oh I forgot, huntress (you know very high range) dying in melee.  wtf??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing wrong with encouraging co-op =).

That way you met alot nice people and make new friends. And fun is worth much more if it can be shared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@dreamanime quote:

Nothing wrong with encouraging co-op =).

That way you met alot nice people and make new friends. And fun is worth much more if it can be shared.

Your two sentences don't match.

The map encourages coop between players who are already in each other's friend list and have played with each other before, not between randoms whom you have to encounter first in order to know how good they are before adding them. And as I mentioned before, this map is a pain to play with randoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@dreamanime quote:

Nothing wrong with encouraging co-op =).

That way you met alot nice people and make new friends. And fun is worth much more if it can be shared.

Your two sentences don't match.

The map encourages coop between players who are already in each other's friend list and have played with each other before, not between randoms whom you have to encounter first in order to know how good they are before adding them. And as I mentioned before, this map is a pain to play with randoms.

How do they not match? The 2 sentences are saying you met people, you make friends, and have fun? It's nothing contradicting, its a path!

Well all friends i have i found them.... over co-op random pub :D or most of them. Only really a few i got from the forum here. So even if you say "other friends already in the list" they where once "pub encounters" too.

And i do play it co-op too this map and it does promotes it, which leads thats you can find and make new friends, which you can add to friend list. And then you can share your fun with them =).

I did play it with randoms and had quit a few good and funny runs by now XD.

Obviously you met these type of players and these you don't want to met.

You never can lose something by playing randoms, you can only win... friends :d, or at last a good random encounter story to tell. Just EAT THEM!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


There's nothing wrong with the map. The people who screw up the map consistently are the same people that screw up other maps. I'd rather we not have the game balanced around people who refuse to co-operate or even listen. If someone rushes and grabs the mana, maybe no one has explained it to them and they think the timer starts immediately. Or maybe it's their first time. These people are fine and will be able to complete it as soon as they are taught/figure it out themselves.

The issue is the randoms that refuse to learn. They are the ones who just drop the mana wherever. Maybe they ping it, maybe they don't. They also ready up before the builder. Even before the build is done. Or, they disregard any established plan and decide they want to build anyway. Regardless of if they are even adequately geared whatsoever.

Like last night I had a group that was getting closer and closer to completing the map. I stayed for around the 5th one before I had to go to bed. We would have completed that last one, but the same person kept dying to the boss's reflect shield. Despite being told about it every time.


@dreamanime quote:


@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@dreamanime quote:

Nothing wrong with encouraging co-op =).

That way you met alot nice people and make new friends. And fun is worth much more if it can be shared.

Your two sentences don't match.

The map encourages coop between players who are already in each other's friend list and have played with each other before, not between randoms whom you have to encounter first in order to know how good they are before adding them. And as I mentioned before, this map is a pain to play with randoms.

how do they not match? the 2 are saying you met people, you make friends, and have fun? It's nothing contradicting its a path!

Well all friends i have i found them.... over co-op random pub :D or most of them. Only really a few i got from the forum here. So even if you see "other friends already in the list" they where once "pub encounters" too.

And i do play it co-op too this map and it does promotes it, which leads thats you can find and make new friends, which you can add to friend list. And then you can share your fun with them =).

I did play it with randoms and had quit a few good and funny runs by now XD.

Obviously you met these type of players and these you don't want to met.

You never can lose something by playing randoms, you can only win... friends :d, or at last a good random encounter story to tell. Just EAT THEM!

They seem to be under the impression that co-op means private with friends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, yeah i see co-op as playing with someone else then just playing with myself alone in the dark. Doesn't need to be a friend, as long as it is someone :d.

@Soulstiger quote:
They seem to be under the impression that co-op means private with friends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...