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CDT Update 2 Beta Updated

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An updated version of the beta is now available for all to test.  It contains a list of fixes and tweaks based on the general feedback made by you, the community.  Please take some time to play through it again to provide any further feedback you may have to make this a great release.

Here is what you can look for in the new update

General Changes

  • Possible fix to lock down hero infor and equipment info UI istances to help prevent future chances of item stealing
  • Reduced Ethereal spike trap damage and reduced attack rate
  • Revert Trap Trigger Radius change
  • SnD scaling adjusted to be less outrageous early game (-50% drop) and about 10% less overall
  • Fixed beam health continuing to reduce once triggered
  • Added toggle key (b) for particle beams
  • Fixed minimap colors for ult+ and ult++
  • Fixed flying enemies not correctly triggering traps
  • Fixed resistance debuff damage shows correctly on clients
  • Fixed upgrade predictions with set bonus


Embermount Changes

  • Fixed phoenix suicide
  • Adjusted Overlord bounds on Embermount
  • Fixed Pure Strategy on Embermount and Buccaneer Bay
  • Fixed survival score/XP issue 
  • Adjusted survival scaling upward (was not working properly)
  • Reduced Chakram damage
  • Increased possible ups on Insane
  • Reduced Anamorphic Ember pet chances of rolling such high stats
  • Fix harbinger aura ticking on phased summoner

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Notes don't seem to impress me regarding tower balance such as missing revert or change of starting wave. I have no clue how restricted the CDT is to participate at the ongoing discussions (Beta Discussion, Tower Balance Changes) but I'd like more active members of the CDT to participate. Especially I would like their thoughts, their reasoning behind certain tower balance changes such as to which tower they justified certain change.


I don't want to be disrespectful nor I want to understate other people thoughts but we haven't really had more detailed thoughts. Lots of people mentioned their opinion in general, which leads to the thinking they haven't tested all changes. Might because they don't care much about certain changes since they don't play/use certain heroes/towers anyways or just left their opinion to participate at the feedback giveaway -.- People who care about the game don't need a giveaway to participate.


So, yay, I'd like the CDT to share their own mind on changes. Instead of leaving the onus to us to prove certain changes are *meh*, required or welcomed I'd like to see the CDT in charge. I'm certainly sure this sounds bloody-minded but I don't know how to phrase it different, remember English isn't my native language.


After all I'd like to discuss especially about following in the related threads.

Tower Balance Changes: TBB, DST and SND (less Lightning Tower)

Beta Discussion: Survival Starting Wave, Building in Spawn, Ember Rewards

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IMportant Note

Create a backup of your configuration file. You will download a new one with new defaults.


Console becomes tilde (qwerty kb layout, no clue on qwertz) instead of default F1, Chat probably was TAB, however had to change a few more custom settings.

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Thanks for the note about the keys being changed.  We will look at that.

Changes are based on the general feedback we receive.  That is why I try to encourage as much feedback as I can from the community like with the giveaway.  It is true that some dont test everything.  I tried to split out the tower balance feedback from the rest of the changes in order to draw more attention to those and allow players to speak to them specifically since tower balance is a difficult thing to tackle.

CDT can give reasons and opinions for particular changes but ultimately it is whether the community as a whole decides to keep them or toss them.  While we each have our own opinions on changes, none of us on the CDT can force changes to go to live.  We include the changes in the betas to provide the community an opportunity to test the changes and decide whether they are acceptable or not.


As for the specific changes you asked about, I can elaborate on a couple of them a little more.

Survival Starting Wave - this was requested by several in the community in the past and current.  Currently on live there are maps where you can start on the last wave, some where you can start 2 waves before last and then a few where you start 7 waves out.  It seemed to make sense to treat each map equally.  It would make getting mega chickens and kobolds quicker but it has always been that way with other highly sought after pets (cat, seahorse, monkey).  Those are mainly only good on NM though so maybe this change would make more sense if mega and kobolds werent as good on Insane as Nightmare.  That could be something we could look at if the community wants to change as well.

Building in Spawn - This has been requested a few times as well.  Currently players do this by removing gear in certain situations like one you had mentioned.  Buffs also allow auras to cover spawns currently if built close enough. This does allow auras to now kill some enemies while still in the spawn, without having to remove gear or buffing, but projectile towers and players are already capable of doing this.  So we included it for the community to decide on.

Ember rewards - what specifically are you concerned about with the latest changes to the rewards?


Will try to answer other towers later when I have more time.

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Thanks for the reply. Loved ;)


I want to work out a more detailed response within the next day(s). I am going to watch the European football championship today.


So really quick thoughts about Survival Starting Wave

Survivals are already not treated equally due to different amount of waves, difficulty, drops. A campaign run on shard and most bonus maps takes 22-30 minutes each. Chicken/Treadmill farm with current change takes 12-16 minutes (we are not talking about mid survival pets which usually have a much worse RNG ;) ) The relationship does not match. If you are starting a survival you have to be aware to invest a bit more time, especially at later waves. My original suggestion was -5 waves for 35 and 40 wave survivals. It's still faster than before but matches at least most campaign times. A new suggestion and to make it look less random...

  • Starting Wave 25 to Final Wave 25 (-0 waves)
  • Starting Wave 28 to Final Wave 30 (-2 waves)
  • Starting Wave 31 to Final Wave 35 (-4 waves) (Chicken/Treadmill farm = 20-24mins)
  • Starting Wave 34 to Final Wave 40 (-6 waves)


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Tower Balance Changes: 

TBB: personally i think its stupid... i see no problem with having buff beams gain more per up and making it more important to upgrade faster. I feel like there are very few "skills" you need to develop in dd and upgrading can definitely be one of them. this change makes it so you are less reliant on upgrading fast early on. however after the first wave (where most maps dont even have ogres on the first wave) it doesn't really matter anymore. so with how few maps it actually effects i figured this can be one of those "you win some you loose some" things. 

DST: the DST is a tower that is very hard to place in most builds effectively. i tried to make the argument that you would have to change the towers targeting system to focus the targets with the most health for it to be useful. however, with the current system in the game you cant really do this to easy. because of this the tower just does not fit into end game to well. tower could possibly need another rework at some point.  

SND: suffers in endgame due to such short range but use to be one of my favorite towers on console. im glad its getting a nice boost to make it a viable tower to use in "fun" builds. still probably wont fit into alot of my builds due to high du cost and short range. but at least its something i feel like i can play around with now so i think its still an improvement. 


Beta Discussion: 

Survival Starting Wave: definitely a lazyness increaser. i also agree that if you make nice things to easy to farm that the game will become boring to fast. however its really not effecting enough to make me to mad about it. as it is now kobolds are being outclassed pretty easy by alternative pets and mega chickens are pretty easy to farm a high quality one. so this ends up being another  "you win some you loose some" things for me. 

Building in Spawn: I personally hate doing it and always try to avoid it anyways but if people want it for some reason then there auras can just keep getting drained super fast... all this change really does is take away the inconvenience of having to take armor on and off. 

Ember Rewards: all in all i think the rewards are pretty strong items. however the weapons are not the best at everything. saws hawk harder than the sword, other guns shoot further than the new one, new staff wont wave clear as well as other ones, and wrench and espear does better melee damage. the accs are all very good but i feel as though the challenge fits the rewards. also the odds of getting really good accs are pretty small. and it is also another thing that takes away from lab a little bit more. im mainly just happy that i can get high end accs from places other than lab assault now. 

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@EagleOne quote:

Thanks for the reply. Loved ;)


I want to work out a more detailed response within the next day(s). I am going to watch the European football championship today.


So really quick thoughts about Survival Starting Wave

Survivals are already not treated equally due to different amount of waves, difficulty, drops. A campaign run on shard and most bonus maps takes 22-30 minutes each. Chicken/Treadmill farm with current change takes 12-16 minutes (we are not talking about mid survival pets which usually have a much worse RNG ;) ) The relationship does not match. If you are starting a survival you have to be aware to invest a bit more time, especially at later waves. My original suggestion was -5 waves for 35 and 40 wave survivals. It's still faster than before but matches at least most campaign times. A new suggestion and to make it look less random...

  • Starting Wave 25 to Final Wave 25 (-0 waves)
  • Starting Wave 28 to Final Wave 30 (-2 waves)
  • Starting Wave 31 to Final Wave 35 (-4 waves) (Chicken/Treadmill farm = 20-24mins)
  • Starting Wave 34 to Final Wave 40 (-6 waves)


Sorry I am a little confused.  If you are wanting for it to be a certain length of time, such as around the time it take to run campaign, why allow the maps with lower max survival waves start at last wave or closer to the last wave than those with higher max survival waves?  Why not just make it (max-4) or something like that for all?  

I am personally fine with a max-4 for all.  It would then be common across all maps and be similar to running a campaign map but shorter for the maps with many more waves.

As for my comparison to some sought after mid survival pets, I was just looking at the time it takes to farm each.  If you think some are too rewarding and not enough RNG affecting it, then maybe that is something else that can or should be looked at.


Towers:

SnD - I am happy to see it boosted personally and am interested in using it now.  This one of those that has been requested before.

TBB - TBB seems to be something people love or hate, kind of like minions.  It definitely gives players quite the boost when using it.  Some who are bad at building love it because it helps overcome their current lack of skill in building.  Other love it because they just want to make the enemy hordes cry by beating them so readily.  Still others dont like it because DLC is balance with buffs and minions in mind.  So any change I think will be liked by some and disliked by others.

The change makes sense to me in that it makes the buff less important to upgrade over other towers.  I believe it is easier to balance towers going forward with this change as well.  However as far as playing, it hasnt really changed how I use it.  I think the effect is felt more by those who are newer.

DST - the higher damage but slower rate change was to create a greater distinction between this tower and other app towers.  Similar to the ethereal spike trap.  They are slow but have a great amount of damage.  I like having a greater distinction between them and the other traps personally as it gives them different uses and dont seem to overlap as much.  Although if the DST wouldnt miss so much, I would enjoy it more.  :) 


That is just my 2 cents.  I dont expect the community to like everything I like.  This game has been amazing in that it has had something for everyone even if a player doesnt like every aspect about it.  So if the community decides against these changes, it wont ruin it for me as I still have other things I will enjoy. 

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Survival Starting Wave


@ddace quote:Sorry I am a little confused.  If you are wanting for it to be a certain length of time, such as around the time it take to run campaign, why allow the maps with lower max survival waves start at last wave or closer to the last wave than those with higher max survival waves?  Why not just make it (max-4) or something like that for all? 

To me it is obvious that I have to invest more time for survivals which have much more waves than others. It seems inconsequent to treat them equally for the starting wave but treating them different in all other aspects such as...

  • max number of waves
  • wave of mid survival pet reward
  • quality / possibility of drops
  • quality / possibility of end survival pets
  • difficulty
  • appearance of different enemies (mini ogres on TL, harbinger on Ember)

Saying that I do not request to treat them equally in any of the aspects I mentioned above.


Let's have a closer look on the end survival pets, survival with...

  • 25 waves: Giraffe, max stats 360/400, very unlikely on NM
  • 30 waves: Giraffe, max stats 360/400, unlikely on NM
  • 30 waves: Pet Rock, max stat 600, less likely on NM (very hard map, movement speed penalty)
  • 35 waves: Kobold/Skeleton, max stat 600, less likely on Insane, unlikely on NM
  • 35 waves: Pirates, max stat 650 (iirc 700 hardcap?), likely on Insane, very likely on NM
  • 35 waves: DPS Chicken, max stat 500 / 20k+, likely on Insane such as on NM

Considering difficulty of the map and possibilities of the pets then I'm able to justify different survival starting waves. As better the pet as "more" time I have to invest. I'm aware that it does not matches always just alone due to the difficulty changes.

I also know that some pets are already outclassed, maybe you get the point now why I'm considering Lab/Moonbase overpowered (If we need/want to talk about these maps please let us start another thread, I just mentioned them because it was said survival pets are outclassed)


@ddace quote:

As for my comparison to some sought after mid survival pets, I was just looking at the time it takes to farm each.  If you think some are too rewarding and not enough RNG affecting it, then maybe that is something else that can or should be looked at.

Don't take this aggressive but as a side note: We both know better, a nerf to certain pets will not happen otherwise a nerf of Lab/Moon has been happened already ;)

I'm not complaining about any survival pet (Ember not tested yet). I do not request a change for existent survival rewards. I never thought to change pet rewards (mega and kobold+) from Insane and Nightmare unlike you mentioned or thought in an earlier post.

I appreciate that Insane is able to reward very good rewards on certain maps because players are not forced to farm endlessly or worse start hacking for very high stats just to get their hands on something good. I also think that a higher survival starting wave encourages hacking because you will need to have higher stats, we can't completely prevent hacking but we should try to minimize encouraging it. If the CDT wants to take a look on rewards, I only would investigate the obvious worse NM than Insane rewards on certain maps. Rewards should be equally on certain maps. (Chicken seems to fine... Kobold/Skeleton not)

Hmm a bit derailed from survival starting wave... I do like the concept of 25-0, 30-2, 35-4, 40-6 as more I think about it and its still faster and an improvement. I mean why -2 waves instead of no restriction if you are arguing we need the stats to do so?

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Building in Spawn

I know that some users requested it but I don't really like it. Furthermore I miss the consistency here. Rhetorical questions:  Why do you allow building auras/traps into the spawn but still disallow building traps underneath the crystal? By the way what's about auras/traps close to the trees of EHE/SN?

Both has been requested. For the same reasons you disallow traps to be placed underneath the crystal, auras and traps shouldn't be allowed to be build inside the spawn. Allowing it, removes a huge part of the strategy of the game. Being in need to reduce auras means also less ground to build on, since you are usually trying to cover your defenses by auras.

Also your physical towers (auras are still way too healthy when placed in spawn) in front of a spawn takes usually a lot more damage when the spawn isn't fully covered by a strength drain aura. This means that you have to build on another place. There is no aspect of a strategy, building an aura stack + harpoon turret in front of a spawn on almost all maps.

I'm aware of the fact that you are able to take off armor just to get the same result at the end. I consider that an exploit, which shouldn't be posssible in first place. I'm using it too on SN (not on TL anymore) like so many others. Build auras should not increase their range when your Tower Range increases but decreases when your Tower Range decreases (to prevent building auras with specialized ranged equipment first and changing to regular equipment later).

Suggesting this, TL south-east spawn (due to map design) and probably the trees should be some exceptions of the building restrictions.


Note: Not fighting you in personal Acen, take the "you" in general to my view / opinion on the matter :) As you see it takes some time for me to word my concerns adequate (or sufficient, whatever matches better) in English, I'm doing a break for now ^^

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Survival starting wave : is okay with me since to be able to start at such a wave as 33 you need good stats otherwise you're clearly gonna get rekt.
"If you are starting a survival you have to be aware to invest a bit more time" yes to the point it just completely silly on some maps 4k+ foes per waves. But my answer to this is: depends on what you are looking for: armors or reward ? With -2 starting waves you only have 2 wave to have the chance to get a sweet armor/weapon drop and you can't do it without the appropriate stats.

Building in spawns: doesn't matter since it was possible before and not very hard and auras don't like it anyway.

TBB: I still don't understand the point of this change. I barely notice it anyway.

SND: The tower could have a dps output of 20 millions I would not use it. The way it works doesn't fit nightmare IMO. 

DST: I tested it on Über Death From Above and it was okay at killing wyvern, but it sometimes picked the farthest wyverns which doesn't make sense.
Pew sees in it only an anti-wyverns tower in which case it doesn't makes sense to make so high damages while the fire rate is so slow.
Harry seems to use it as anti-ogres in which case I don't think it really has a place for that, I don't see the point of using a tower which is less efficient than poons for the same use.
In both cases the targeting system is wrong. And I agree with Harry that it might just need a complete rework which should revolve around one question : what should we do with it ?

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Ember Rewards


The Crescent is much more balanced to other weapons now, at least 330ish/350ish^ Crescent doesn't outperform almost 380ish^ Obsidian Sparus anymore. I haven't done more runs on Ember yet, so I will have to collect more rewards from this map to see how frequently the RNG rewards you with high-upgrade ultimate. I have plenty of 350^ swords which seems to be very equally to Etherian Greatswords.


My major concern about frequent and powerful weapons (already mentioned it when Moonbase was released) that you just run the map a handful of times while we have to run maps like Kings Game, Shard Maps hundreds of times to get better considered rewards (which should be untouched). Furthermore, Ember is a pretty hard map, if you are handing out good stuff way too frequently then it will encourage hacking once again because people will always refer to Ember for strong and quickly farmable rewards. Therefore I like it when the more common rewards are worse or as good than common rewards from other maps and the very rare outstanding rewards from Ember slightly worse than current "best".


I also get the point that high-end players who already have everything and played plenty of time doesn't want to grind so much for new stuff than they already did for their previous stuff. Especially if new stuff isn't as good as old stuff. What many of these high-end players with several hundreds if not thousands of hours seems to forget is that only the grind kept them playing. The rarity of outstanding equipment they are hunting for. Many new players, are not playing the game for several hundred of hours anymore and I honestly think more players quit due to quickly grinding than "stuck at progression" nowadays.


I have no clue if you get what I'm trying to say, due to difficulty I don't want people to complain that they have to beat such a hard map to get very good/best equipment in a short time. Ember is a real challenge and I like too see it as a challenge rather than a "play-to-win" map. Etherian Holiday Extravaganza is also a quite hard map and a selftest for everyone with quite bad rewards.


Time for a break, busy day... will definitely have to clarify my view on the towers reading the replies so far. At least I can quote some passages now ^^

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@EagleOne quote:

Ember Rewards


The Crescent is much more balanced to other weapons now, at least 330ish/350ish^ Crescent doesn't outperform almost 380ish^ Obsidian Sparus anymore. I haven't done more runs on Ember yet, so I will have to collect more rewards from this map to see how frequently the RNG rewards you with high-upgrade ultimate. I have plenty of 350^ swords which seems to be very equally to Etherian Greatswords.


My major concern about frequent and powerful weapons (already mentioned it when Moonbase was released) that you just run the map a handful of times while we have to run maps like Kings Game, Shard Maps hundreds of times to get better considered rewards (which should be untouched). Furthermore, Ember is a pretty hard map, if you are handing out good stuff way too frequently then it will encourage hacking once again because people will always refer to Ember for strong and quickly farmable rewards. Therefore I like it when the more common rewards are worse or as good than common rewards from other maps and the very rare outstanding rewards from Ember slightly worse than current "best".


I also get the point that high-end players who already have everything and played plenty of time doesn't want to grind so much for new stuff than they already did for their previous stuff. Especially if new stuff isn't as good as old stuff. What many of these high-end players with several hundreds if not thousands of hours seems to forget is that only the grind kept them playing. The rarity of outstanding equipment they are hunting for. Many new players, are not playing the game for several hundred of hours anymore and I honestly think more players quit due to quickly grinding than "stuck at progression" nowadays.


I have no clue if you get what I'm trying to say, due to difficulty I don't want people to complain that they have to beat such a hard map to get very good/best equipment in a short time. Ember is a real challenge and I like too see it as a challenge rather than a "play-to-win" map. Etherian Holiday Extravaganza is also a quite hard map and a selftest for everyone with quite bad rewards.


Time for a break, busy day... will definitely have to clarify my view on the towers reading the replies so far. At least I can quote some passages now ^^

I definitely prefer having to grind for 5-10 hours to get a desirable good/high-end version of an item on a map as opposed to spending an hour learning the map and playing it a few times for the same reward. (The rarity of a well rolling item should require the user to grind for 5-10 hours to get it imo)

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Commenting on some of the issues raised here

@EagleOne quote:

Console becomes tilde (qwerty kb layout, no clue on qwertz) instead of default F1, Chat probably was TAB, however had to change a few more custom settings.

Default for console and chat has been permanently fixed. This occured because of the extra binding for the beam toggle was added to the input configuration. Will make a note of this for release patch notes for those with custom setups.


TBB change

The reason TBB changes don't make a whole lot of sense to those replying is that it's another early game focused improvement (like the flat addition of 1-2 extra trap charges across the board). Just about every other final tower is downright awesome when you unlock it (and almost all scaled terribly, but lets just ignore that for now -.-). The TBB on the other hand was overwhelmingly underwhelming when first unlocked (probably looking at 25% buff tops for damage, and more like 10-15% for the rest).

  • At level 20, you don't have infinite mana, and mana income from enemies is pretty low. Chest mana is a major income souce on medium difficulty
  • At level 20, you don't have the casting rate to upgrade instantly.
  • At level 20, you probably don't have the experience to make a 30% (20% damage + 10% rate) buff worth its DU and mana cost


Ember rewards

The vibe I'm getting is that individual stats are ok, but the weapons as a whole roll a bit too high across the board (making it too easy to get a "perfect" item). Would this be a correct interpretation?


Starting Wave

How about somehing like this

  • 25 max => Start at 24 (-1)
  • 30 max => Start at 28 (-2)
  • 35 max => Start at 32 (-3)
  • 40 max => Start at 36 (-4)

Or is that too conservative?

Also, need to fix the tinkerers Insane/Nightmare rewards. (at some point...)

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Tower Buff Beam

@ddace quote:The change makes sense to me in that it makes the buff less important to upgrade over other towers.  I believe it is easier to balance towers going forward with this change as well.  However as far as playing, it hasnt really changed how I use it.  I think the effect is felt more by those who are newer.

Paradoxon: Making the buff less important to upgrade but setting the focus on TBB to be upgraded first.

The TBB change does not make any sense to me. Decreasing the benefit from upgrading a TBB doesn't add anything to the insight that upgrading defenses has to be one of your priorities while running a map. Especially for a boosting defense, it absolutely makes sense to me upgrading boosting defenses. Do you know how many people I met which just don't upgrade anything during my public runs? I've given up to count.

Also how does it make balancing towers easier? You are going to upgrade TBB to 3 stars anyways, no? The boost is for all towers equally. The only thing I see here happening is that high-end players won't even bother to upgrade TBB anymore. New non-upgraded 5k buff beams (tower dps x2.92) are better than old fully upgraded gear-less buff beams (tower dps x2.89). A few high-end players have already proven it that low level EVs just as fine as high level EVs.

Don't want to throw with more numbers around me, so minimalistic here (the CDT knows the numbers). Per upgrade you gain an almost fixed amount which has been halved for the new TBB. That means a new fully upgraded TBB with lower stats (less than 5k) is worse than an old fully upgraded one with similar stats. Remember new non-upgraded are much better than old ones. If lowering final boost stats is okay for the community then I prefer that stats have a real effect on upgrading instead of an increased offset of boost values. I've left an example of how it looks like at the other thread. That would also allow you to build up TBBs to your liking. Don't hesitate to ask if you are curios to know more about it or if anything is obscure to you.

[[19097,users]]
At such low hero levels, Series EV, Monk and Huntress are nothing more than support heroes due to the defenses they have. You are building either with Squire (especially now because Squire got five superior towers now) or Apprentice. The new TBB with stats of 0 and non-upgraded boosts your tower dps already by 93% (dmg x1.43, rate x1.35, total x1.93). That already means... before you are going to build two Harpoon Turrets for 12DU, you build a Harpoon Turret and a TBB for 10DU even though TBB are absolutely not required at such an early state of the game.

Usually a TBB is boosting much more towers than just one. The game is pretty simple at beginning, with such an huge boost it is even easier and my concern about build-whatever-you-want gets stronger. The old TBB was already very strong at 2 stripes (Chevrons) boosting towers by roundabout 60% (requires hero level 9 while you have to be level 15 to be able to build TBB).

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Deadly Striker Tower

It seems my concerns about the DST wasn't clear enough. I don't see them as exclusive anti-air defense but I also don't want them to focus Ogres first. The way they are targeting enemies is an absolute exception compared to all other towers and should be left as is. This allows you to use them in a complete different manner than any other tower to create mind-blowing and extraordinary builds (see links below for some examples).

My major concern is the lowered fire rate while their damage has received an absurd high boost. What's the point of such a high damage numbers (same for Ethereal Spike Trap)? It has been said for a much higher distinction but the way they are operating is already very different to any other tower.

Not a lot of players used the DST before, Apprentice at all, so they won't notice a huge difference and therefore won't say much against these changes. Trying to convince these people I will have to create a more obvious change. So let's change our beloved Harpoon Turret to act similar like a DST.

That means Harpoon Turrets won't pierce enemies anymore, hitting once and their projectiles disappear. Alone this would be enough to let the community go crazy. Furthermore, instead of firing 7.1 projectiles per second (rate of 0.14) they only shoot 1.3 projectiles per second (rate of 0.75). Therefore they deal 1167k per shot instead of 218k, their theoretical DPS remains steady, so nobody could be upset about such a change not true? However, let them deal 2000k per shot.

What happens on early game when your auras are not strong enough to kill the trash mobs? This is equally to a DST which shoots enemies way before they reached your auras. Our new Harpoon Turret will have to kill way more enemies, not only Ogres but also the so often called trash mob. Our Harpoon Turrets will be overrun by enemies due to the low fire rate, although they are dealing 2000k damage per shot. Furthermore they are unable to deal their full damage potential because 90% and more of the enemies have just 100-200k health. That means our Harpoon Turret deals most of the time just 5-10% of its damage potential. This is crazy! Their effectiveness has been massively decreased. I doubt anyone would like this or even call this a good change.

Compared to Squire, Apprentice is already a bad choice, just alone by his low tower health but also because of his major dps tower which deals elemental damage and his very low healthy barriers (also if they cost just 1DU, they don't deal any damage, just strip elemental affinity of enemies on touch). Decreasing a tower effectiveness doesn't help to make the Apprentice more viable. I, as a player which uses apprentice towers in every kind of survival and in many fun campaign builds, prefer a complete revert of this change than having to deal with the new less-effective DSTs.

Damage per shot was fine, if you want to boost their dps to make them more viable then you have to increase their rate of fire. So they hit more enemies per second, often their full dps potential isn't used already because many enemies don't have such a high health and of course they don't hit with every shot.


Examples of how to place DSTs effectively

  • Kings Game Campaign NMHC, worked flawlessly with 2k before, does not work flawlessly even with 5k+ now, with 5k only 2 old DSTs would face top crystal to lure top Ogres
  • Tavern Defense Survival NMHC, DST south-west covers south-east, no other defenses needed south, everything can be upgraded
  • Winter Wonderland Survival NMHC, DST mid covers north-west, everything can be upgraded
  • Moraggo Desert Town Survival NMHC, DSTs are covering crystals and minion walls by killing wyvern and luring Ogres, south-east aura spot would be obsolete with a better fire rate

Other maps were DSTs work great are Palantir, Aquanos, Mistymire Forest... you just have to take advantages of their wall piercing ability hence why I'm saying if you build them like you are building Harpoon Turrets, Fireball Towers or any other tower facing enemies directly in front then you are going to waste their potential. DST is a special tower which allows to build strange looking builds. Lowering rate of fire and they are less effective for such an usage.

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Slice 'N' Dice


Squire is already far superior compared to all other heroes including Summoner at an early game state. Not only because his towers are much more healthy but also because they deal the most damage. Furthermore all towers but Bouncing Ball are able to hit multiple enemies at once. At an early game state Monk, Huntress, Series EV and Summoner are support heroes. Unlike with Squire, you are not able to solo the game with Apprentice. Playing with Apprentice, you are in need of at least Strength Drain Auras and some kind of barriers, either EVs Physical Wall or Squires Spike/Bouncer Blockade.

I don't get it that you make the Squire even stronger compared to all other heroes. Squire had three superior towers before (Bouncer Blockade replaces Spike Blockade, Harpoon Turret, Bowling Ball although Harpoon Turret replaces them already) and receives now a forth even stronger tower.

Damage and rate scaling from SNDs were pretty limited, with high-end stats (5k+) you are boosting this tower by almost 1000% now. Why do you think this is a reasonable step? Even if we compare the new SND with our beloved and always considered overpowered Harpoon Turret, to date the tower with highest DPS, it does 250-275% more damage than a Harpoon Turret.

I won't even compare it to towers from Apprentice because these numbers are getting ridiculous. SND hits multiple enemies, at late game, they are the only defenses which are needed to crush Ogres besides auras for the mob. I think it has been proven by me with the runs I've recorded, although crzy wasn't impressed by it, I'm pretty sure it isn't possible with Fireball Towers and DSTs but at least it will be way harder because of much lower dps numbers and much lower tower health.

We don't have more people saying anything against it because most don't care, haven't and won't use the SND anyways. After all some towers have been and will be only build for fun. SND is still overpowered if dps numbers match numbers from Harpoon Turret since SND also hits multiple enemies and Harpoon Turret were already overpowered compared to all other towers.

Get away from these build-whatever-you-want thinking, stop making the Squire an even stronger class compared to all other heroes especially at an early game state. This is not balancing to me, making a strong and superior hero even stronger. You want more variety? Show Apprentice some love, increase tower health especially for Magic Barriers, make Fireball towers stronger since they deal elemental damage, increase the effectiveness of DSTs by increasing rate of fire. This would create also a higher variety of different builds but would not be limited to Squire.


If you think or going to say that a 8DU SND would be too similar to two 4DU Bouncer Blockades damage-wise and health-wise then its probably time to nerf the superior Bouncer Blockade (Spike Blockade) or just accept the fact that not all towers of one hero can be so much more superior than others.

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Ethereal Spike Trap


With the updated beta you have massively decreased the detonation rate of ESTs besides tower damage. This results for ESTs with stats of 6k, non-buffed, fully-upgraded, to a dps drop from 1207k to 358k. Damage-wise a good change. I'm irritated by the decreased detonation rate, for me decreasing rate of fire reduces the effectiveness of towers. Why do you prefer high damage numbers along low rates of fire? How do you like them to be used? Are they meant to support killing healthy Ogres/Harbinger. How does the EST chooses an enemy to be hit if several enemies are in range?


What if you needed a higher rate of fire for example south spot of Sky City to fight incoming (golden) Wyvern to name just one but most popular scenario? I prefer old detonation rate therefore even lower damage numbers to match current tower dps. Another attempt to balance them with current rate could be to make them hitting two but maximal three enemies. If a blizzard impacts on a crowd usually more people are hit or affected than just one. Saying that what about an EST which also stuns enemies in range like EVs Shock Beam? As closer to the center as longer is the stun time. EVs Shock Beam has to be superior to this though.

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NOTE: All that follows is my personal opinion and may not reflect the consensus of the CDT.

RE: TBB

Yea, it's a base damage buff of 93%. You can replace any 2 high DU towers with 1 and a TBB and make it look like you come out on top, but you do lose out as well, the TBB isn't exactly without its downsides. I do believe it has to sit in that sort of regime to be a viable defence (preferably not moving at all from there, but that ones long since flown the coop...)

The change would make further TBB tweaks easier because there is actually room for change. Live TBB has an internal base damage boost of 3% and a really really low scaling factor. It's strength is driven by factors outside the tower itself with effects that drive more than just the TBB.

Regardless, with various issues coming to light and strong opposition this one's probably getting reverted.

RE: DST

IMO, your example with the harpoon turret is flawed. Please compare like with like when making examples, instead of trying to just rip a tower out to make an example.

A change to your harpoon equivalent to that received by the DST for a 5k/5k app would be from 218k 0.14 to 693k 0.182

Those numbers are pre TBB interference. Post TBB, the rate change is 0.14 to about 0.17 due to the old DST only recieving ~85% of the rate buff.

DSTs are unique in that they excel at long range attacks and their usefulness lies in being able to exploit the ability to shoot through walls. They still need some damage to be able to back that up though otherwise it's just a limited gimmick

RE: SnD

So because other heroes have some weak towers, the squire should be held back? The long term aim is to bring every tower towards a position where it can atleast be considered for use. The squire just happens to be in a position to make that easy.

Why do I personally think a 1000% buff (TBC. Using your numbers here) is a reasonable step? Because it was so far down down the hole it wasn't a useful tower with no DLC content (ie. end of original campaign at insane difficulty), nevermind the crazy scaling that is NM.

You compare it to a harpoon, but lets compare apples with apples. The Bouncer. Another melee tower that sidelines in the barricade role (and was useful but not broken when it was being used). The bouncer served as a good locator when making such a large jump, hence why SnD landed almost right on top of it.

RE: EST

Choice of target is the enemy closest to its origin.

EST is a finisher in my book. A single target tower with no real range only makes sense to me when acting as the last line of defence. The equivalent in a traditional tower defence would be that one tower you place right at the back that slowly accumulates power over time and then dumps it all at once into anything that comes close. By the time anything steps on it, you should already be limited to enemies that have health proportional to that discharge (gold orcs/wyverns, DEWs, ogres, djinn, sharken) in which case the high damage gives you a chance to KO instantly for the severely weakened, and the low rate doesn't matter fr those with more health.

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I appreciate personal opinions, not a lot of people are familiar with numbers, so as more people discuss about it as more thoughts and possible solutions we are able to work out together.


Like I did before, I will have to post several times because I want to underline my thoughts and concerns with as much data as possible and of course writing/discussing in English isn't that easy for me and lastly the forums crit out for me often enough -.-


Tower Buff Beam

@CrzyRndm quote:RE: TBB

Yea, it's a base damage buff of 93%. You can replace any 2 high DU towers with 1 and a TBB and make it look like you come out on top, but you do lose out as well, the TBB isn't exactly without its downsides. I do believe it has to sit in that sort of regime to be a viable defence (preferably not moving at all from there, but that ones long since flown the coop...)

The change would make further TBB tweaks easier because there is actually room for change. Live TBB has an internal base damage boost of 3% and a really really low scaling factor. It's strength is driven by factors outside the tower itself with effects that drive more than just the TBB.

Regardless, with various issues coming to light and strong opposition this one's probably getting reverted.

The buff of 93% by default its exactly what I'm complaining about. Not only high DU towers will be replaced by a single tower + TBB but also any other 4DU tower whenever you would build two of them. Besides damage and rate, also towers health will be boosted by increasing its resistance. I believe that TBB in an early state of the game has to be used more efficient, smarter than this.

For the record, let's say a TBB would boost a towers dps just by 50%. Doing simple math, two boosted high DU tower (4DU+) would deal as much dps as three high DU tower of the same kind. You benefit a lot already, saving most likely DU, your towers receives less damage and have a better range.

Now we are reducing the boost to 33%, that would mean that we have to build three towers on the TBB to replace the forth tower and still gain the benefits mentioned above. This aspect of strategy has been lost very quickly as you will see below. I pretty much remember my first attempts building with TBB by no-time I had the feeling they were underpowered.


Let's take a closer look on old TBB at early game, some data -> here

stats of 0, non-upgraded: +8% tower dps (dmg boost 1.03 * rate boost 1.05 = dps boost 1.08)

stats of 0, 1 chevron: +40% tower dps -> benefit with 3 towers (requires hero lvl 4 to upgrade)

stats of 0, 2 chevrons: +67% tower dps -> benefit with 2 towers (requires hero lvl 9 to upgrade)

stats of 0, 3 chevrons: +99.5% tower dps -> benefit with 1 tower (requires hero lvl 19 to upgrade)


If there were any complaints about the old TBB then it was because of its "bad" scaling. Boost numbers change marginal but will have an huge effect, at current late game our towers do 300% more dps. To be honest, I think even the old TBB are too strong, hence my suggestion that stats should take an effect on upgrading TBB, but that would probably hit hard beginners if they actually use TBB at such an early state of the game (I doubt that).

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Deadly Striker Tower

@CrzyRndm quote:RE: DST

IMO, your example with the harpoon turret is flawed. Please compare like with like when making examples, instead of trying to just rip a tower out to make an example.

A change to your harpoon equivalent to that received by the DST for a 5k/5k app would be from 218k 0.14 to 693k 0.182

Those numbers are pre TBB interference. Post TBB, the rate change is 0.14 to about 0.17 due to the old DST only recieving ~85% of the rate buff.

DSTs are unique in that they excel at long range attacks and their usefulness lies in being able to exploit the ability to shoot through walls. They still need some damage to be able to back that up though otherwise it's just a limited gimmick

How is that comparison flawed? I've chosen the Harpoon by intend because a lot of people are familiar with that tower. How it works, what this tower is able to manage in-game. To show these people why the effectiveness of a DST has been decreased although its theoretical tower dps has been increased.


My self-created Harpoon Turret does a lot more damage per second than the current, everybody should be happy about it, no? The good thing; You called that tower by yourself garbage but why? It is obvious to you and many that the effectiveness of my Harpoon has been massively decreased although damage numbers are much higher.


So I'm complaining about the decreased effectiveness of DSTs. Tower Rate is an important attribute when we are talking about effectiveness as my creation above proves. That's why I - as a player who uses DSTs frequently - prefer a complete revert than having to deal with an even slower rate of fire. If the DST was a limited gimmick to you then now it is for sure. I've tried to explain it with a timeline in the other thread but some users were confused by it, thinking that I use the DST exclusively as anti-air defense which I don't.


To increase tower damage you have two option:

- increasing damage

- increasing rate of fire

It does not make sense to massively increase damage but lower rate if you could just slightly increase damage and rate to get the same effect. Especially if it means that you change a tower that much that a build which worked flawlessly with 2k stats does not work flawlessly with 5k stats anymore. The issue? Slower rate of fire. Now, you could argue that 0.75 compared to 0.63 (or 0.65) isn't such of a big deal but as you see it seems to be.


Hopefully the purpose of my self-created Harpoon is clear now and more people are able to follow my concerns about the DST and its lesser effectiveness compared to the old DSTs.

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Slice 'N' Dice

@CrzyRndm quote:RE: SnD

So because other heroes have some weak towers, the squire should be held back? The long term aim is to bring every tower towards a position where it can atleast be considered for use. The squire just happens to be in a position to make that easy.

If you want to call it so, yes. I call it, don't make an superior builder even more superior. The Squire has already four very strong and compared to others superior towers.

I'm very doubtful that you will nerf his towers afterwards. It reads like that you will have to boost other towers from other heroes to bring them on par with his towers. With other words; My thesis of "build-whatever-you-want" isn't that wrong if you pursue the plan to bring everything towards a position where it can be considered for use compared to Squire's towers.

@CrzyRndm quote:Why do I personally think a 1000% buff (TBC. Using your numbers here) is a reasonable step? Because it was so far down down the hole it wasn't a useful tower with no DLC content (ie. end of original campaign at insane difficulty), nevermind the crazy scaling that is NM.

You compare it to a harpoon, but lets compare apples with apples. The Bouncer. Another melee tower that sidelines in the barricade role (and was useful but not broken when it was being used). The bouncer served as a good locator when making such a large jump, hence why SnD landed almost right on top of it.

The reason why I'm comparing the SND to the Harpoon is the fact that the Harpoon was to date the tower with the highest dps. I certainly remember several threads back in the days, where the community was talking about possible changes (nerf) to make it less superior. Many considered the Harpoon overpowered. Now, your SND does so much more damage compared to a Harpoon that the Harpoon looks like a weak tower.

With your view on the DST as finisher (extreme high projectile damage -> Ogre-killer) we could also compare it to the new DST, multitarget SND with 5m dps vs singletarget DST with 3m dps, both costs 8DU. In my opinion another valid reason why the SND is blatantly unbalanced. Already taken into account that SND has a very low range.

Alright, lets compare it to a Bouncer Blockade which I already mentioned to be one of Squires superior towers. You are able to beat most maps using Bouncer and Harpoons as main defenses. Especially on lower difficulties but also on NM it is one of the most useful towers.

Comparing DU costs, health and tower dps, the change to the SND seems reasonable. Finally an explanation why tower damage was boosted so much. I get where you're coming from but please don't forget that the Bouncer Blockade is a superior tower already.The SND has a much higher range compared to a Bouncer. In worst case Ogres stop in front of Bouncers hitting them without being hit by Bouncers due to their extreme low range. This does not happen for SNDs. Also Sharken are much more dangerous for Bouncers than for SNDs. And finally Bouncers are able to hit multiple enemies but unlikely since enemies usually don't walk side-by-side.

Some towers would require obviously a nerf but it will be hard to enforce them. So it's probably the best to leave them as they are instead of boosting other towers that much. No multitarget tower should exceed numbers from the always considered overpowered Harpoon Turret. Therefore I believe that a dps of 2m is suitable, more than enough and still fair.

At the end Bouncers would deal similar damage for half DU costs, even though their range is extremely low and a drawback already. To make SNDs an even more viable choice, how about decreasing Bouncer's dps to 80% and probably lower their health in addition of increasing SNDs health? To read Spike < Bouncer < SND. Is that something the CDT probably would consider to implement and test before current beta SNDs go live?

Balancing is a very hard process which I've learned by myself while writing/developing my own game modes for games like TF2 / CS - good old time :)

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Ethereal Spike Trap

@CrzyRndm quote:RE: EST

Choice of target is the enemy closest to its origin.

Thanks for clarification, that means we have to build their center where we expect Ogres/Copters to hold on, hitting our physical defenses. For me one and only usage I would probably have with such a low detonation rate. Several golden wyvern can't be fight anymore.

@CrzyRndm quote:EST is a finisher in my book. A single target tower with no real range only makes sense to me when acting as the last line of defence. The equivalent in a traditional tower defence would be that one tower you place right at the back that slowly accumulates power over time and then dumps it all at once into anything that comes close. By the time anything steps on it, you should already be limited to enemies that have health proportional to that discharge (gold orcs/wyverns, DEWs, ogres, djinn, sharken) in which case the high damage gives you a chance to KO instantly for the severely weakened, and the low rate doesn't matter fr those with more health.

To me, EST is pretty much disqualified to be that single target tower acting as last line of defense just because it is dealing elemental damage but also because it has no physical health to attract enemies. Saying that, it can be only used as one of several towers, within such a spot, it may will be the last tower before enemies pass the whole spot.


Maybe others want to say more about ESTs, I use them just on Sky and TD.

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i agree 100% with pew

the stuck minions bug is not fixed yet

here is some examples of the bug :

mJo6dG6.jpg

hBdXbIA.jpg

2ufEYb2.jpg

0TZaE32.jpg

4r6zvCK.jpg


and i would like to suggest 2 features :

1- : the ability to add mana using a keyboared in the trade

for example this pic instead of just adding mana using the arrows you can add them using a keyboared to it can be accurate and fast

s2sCVgZ.jpg

2- the Feature that allows you to change the style of the Tavren

for example now we have 3 styles with the upcoming update

1- the normal Tavren style
2- Moonbase Tavren style
3- Volcano Tavren style

if we can change between all of those 3 that will be amazing :)

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