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CDT Update 2 - Tower Balance Discussion

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No one is complaining, actually you are the one who seems a tiny bit agitated and aggressive. This is a feedback and discussion thread, not a praise the CDT thread. The CDT is greatly appreciated, so please take a step back and try to be a bit more professional. When people have a discussion, the wonderful thing is everyone brings their opinion and experiences with them, and that's when we all might learn something.  

Try to not take the constructive feedback that is coming in personal, although I feel you have put a lot of your own personal time and effort into making the game better.  

The CDT is greatly appreciated by all who play this game. I don't think we can find another game that has a community throughout the years as great as this one.  <3

In fact, I'm starting a new thread, to thank the CDT <3

<3 Jemma

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Agitated? Yea, maybe a I'm a little frustrated (not blaming anyone here at all, and changes are being made because of the feedback received here. I just feel we're not getting the demonstrations we need to really make strong calls one way or another). If a tower is significantly OP, I'd like to see that demonstrated with something the player shouldn't otherwise be able to do. IMO demonstrations which are already a walk in the park show very little.

"need less healing" continued -
Archers are weak. If they have no support, they end up taking a lot more damage than most other towers. SnD is the opposite, it murders things before they can significantly damage it. The result of the SnD requiring less repairing than 16MU of archers is IMO to be expected.

The other side of this of course is that you would probably find a very similar effect using bouncers. The lightning tower would pull ogres into range and then minced ogres would be churned out. Comparing archers and the SnD just feels like apples and oranges because they are different towers with different roles.

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What inspired the change of base charges on all traps to 3?


1/2/2 was just fine in my opinion.

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3/4 are more beginner friendly. Starting out, traps require a lot of repairs/replacement which takes significant quantities of mana and time (20 mana per charge, and no casting stat). No other tower requires as much maintenance and the benefits didn't completely match up (early prox damage is very high, but that 13s CD is too...)

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The 3/4 is a lot better. Makes huntress much more bearable in early game. Started another new play through using the huntress and it's a lot more manageable and traps don't get destroyed immediately. One of the best tower balances. 

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@curtisgk quote:

The 3/4 is a lot better. Makes huntress much more bearable in early game. Started another new play through using the huntress and it's a lot more manageable and traps don't get destroyed immediately. One of the best tower balances. 

Ah I guess I was only thinking about the end game, thanks for the clarification.


I would like to see a comparison between lightning towers and lightning auras with similar stats due to the rate buff. I might try to test it out later this week. If anyone else has tried out something similar, post away!

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@CrzyRndm quote:

Agitated? Yea, maybe a I'm a little frustrated (not blaming anyone here at all, and changes are being made because of the feedback received here. I just feel we're not getting the demonstrations we need to really make strong calls one way or another). If a tower is significantly OP, I'd like to see that demonstrated with something the player shouldn't otherwise be able to do. IMO demonstrations which are already a walk in the park show very little.

"need less healing" continued -
Archers are weak. If they have no support, they end up taking a lot more damage than most other towers. SnD is the opposite, it murders things before they can significantly damage it. The result of the SnD requiring less repairing than 16MU of archers is IMO to be expected.

The other side of this of course is that you would probably find a very similar effect using bouncers. The lightning tower would pull ogres into range and then minced ogres would be churned out. Comparing archers and the SnD just feels like apples and oranges because they are different towers with different roles.

The Lightning Tower wasn't build to lure Ogres, since they will be lured just by the placement of the SNDs. Actually more than risky to build such a fragile tower on the same TBB where the main defenses are built on. Electric Aura would have been a way better choice especially because Lightning Tower doesn't prioritize Wyvern over other enemies, their chain reaction is unpredictable (suggestion from my side to change that behave in order get a real alternative to electric aura, that's also why I would like to see a little drop in damage for them IF they prioritize Wyvern). I can for sure say that Akatiti (also if you say it's an easy map) should not work with 4 melee towers.


Minions are that strong that the community believes they are required to beat the game. I can't count how often the Summoner DLC was called Pay2Win DLC. Minions are that strong that you literally don't see any builds without them as the main defense (at least that's my experience joining public games). It's not an issue due to low DU on most maps, it's done because other towers always required more maintenance (repairing, dps support, re-placing).


Comparing Archers and SNDs is eligible since I replace Archers with SNDs, their role doesn't change when I replace them. Well, what's about Harpoon Turrets, otherwise no clue... Do we agree that the Harpoon Turret was always considered as an overpowered tower? The reason why people build them. You can be sure that I also did runs with Harpoon Turrets, to be exact with 5 Harpoon Turrets at 2k and 5k. Even though Harpoon Turrets are ranged defenses I had to repair them more often than the SNDs. Wouldn't you expect vice versa since Harpoon Turrets are ranged defenses?


Hence my feeling that SNDs are overpowered currently... always known as overpowered Harpoon Turret ~1.8m DPS... Slice'N Dice ~5m DPS. I think everything has been said from my side, trying to underline my concerns, thoughts and suggestions, I hope a few things will make it into a new beta branch.

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@Starman quote:

I would like to see a comparison between lightning towers and lightning auras with similar stats due to the rate buff. I might try to test it out later this week. If anyone else has tried out something similar, post away!


Scroll down to Lightning Tower, including picture from beta :) Could be a great alternative :)

@EagleOne quote:
Here you go to my thoughts -> here

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The only reason archers are worth anything damage wise is that they cost no DU. With respect to damage (assuming a TBB is involved), 1 archer is worth ~1DU (sit 1 MMT up vs 3 archers all on TBB's if you doubt that).

Their damage is not the reason they got labelled as P2W.
1) They hard counter every shards mob (spiders => 360 degree attack, djinn/sharken => interrupt, sharken => not chargeable, copter => no targeting issues)
2) They scale HP better than any other tower (archers start out squishier than a lit tower...), and self heal so can take a front line position
3) and of course, they're 25% extra damaging DU, free of any restrictions

RE: the bouncer comment
SnD has the range to attack ogres with no lure (just barely), a bouncer doesn't. I stand by being able to switch 1 SnD for 2 (well placed) bouncers and not seeing a massive difference. Yet I still don't see bouncers used in a real build. What conclusion would you draw from that...

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I think SnD's need to be nerfed a little bit in the early game since when I've been playing with it, it just eviscerates ogres and can tank kobolds no problem. They're a bit too OP for that early in game and also makes the first two boss fights a near instant win. 

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@curtisgk quote:

I think SnD's need to be nerfed a little bit in the early game since when I've been playing with it, it just eviscerates ogres and can tank kobolds no problem. They're a bit too OP for that early in game and also makes the first two boss fights a near instant win. 

I think there needs to be a balance between the dps and health of SnD's when compared to Bouncers/Spike walls. I want to look into that as well.

(specifically a dps/health per du comparison would be optimal since they have different DU costs.)

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Health scaling for Squire blockades is essentially the same (bouncer scales very slightly better than the spike/SnD) so you can just take a ratio as a decent approximation for anything within ~5x the stat. Always: Spike > Bouncer > SnD

DPS scaling I can plot if you want to give some benchmark stats, but I'd prefer towait till after the next round of tweaks (since I'm currently looking at the new numbers which you can't validate in any way...)

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Balance Updates

Tower Buff Beam - Base boost values increased while upgrading effectiveness has been reduced. Fully upgraded buffs are nearly identical, but unupgraded beams are significantly more powerful and the scaling with stats is much more noticeable:
Works, but dont know where this balances anything as the end values are equal.

Slice’N Dice and Lightning Tower - Higher damage output. Damage per tick now increases with the attack rate stat so that damage output continues to scale into lategame (including buffs and debuffs). Scaling revised to account for this.:
Yey we now got a nicer slicer (sorry for that xD).

Bowling Ball Tower - Faster attacks. Animation time exponent increased from 0.8 to 1.0 (significant increase in high end attack rate). Bowling ball tower damage had fallen well behind at high levels due to it’s below average animation duration scaling. Increasing the scaling exponent to 1.0 brought the damage up to comparable levels and makes it easier to compare across towers for future changes.:
I like the constant flow of bowlingballs.

Deadly Striker Tower - Slightly slower, more powerful attacks. Animation time exponent increased from 0.67 to 1.0. Attack Rate exponent reduced from 0.77 to 0.6. Damage scaling exponent increased from 1.1 to 1.36 Base damage decreased from 350 to 300. An even worse case than the bowling ball tower for the attack rate being restricted by the firing animation. Overall attack rate scaling was reduced to compensate for the faster animation and keep the tower in it’s niche (slow, high damage). Damage scaling increased to bring it closer to other towers at high stats (because of a quirk in how damage is calculated, base damage remains the same even though it was decreased):
Nice op tower but still to many DU to build this one.

Magic Missile Tower - More powerful attacks. Damage scaling exponent increased from 1.105 to 1.15. Single target towers need to do more damage than multi target towers. The MMT wasn’t, so it gets a small buff.:
Maybe they will actually get a use now. Good job!

Darkness, Inferno, and Gas traps - Base charges increased to 3 from 1/2/2. Trigger radius scaling reduced to match cloud radius scaling:
don't linke this one. They are too small now in my opinion. More Charges? cant see any difference

Ethereal Spike Trap - Base charges increased from 2 to 4. Attack radius now scales with trigger radius so it can always hit the enemy that triggered the trap. Damage now scales much, much faster, starting off at ~3.5x a proximity mine trap, and ending up around 10x the same trap:
More Charges? cant see any difference. I like the new damage of this trap and as it is not hitting everything i think this is a fair upgrade.

Proximity Mine Trap - Base charges increased from 2 to 4:
More Charges? cant see any difference.

Dont know if this was mentioned before but i like how a buff is now always first target if you are upgrading something in range. I realy like this one!

If anything is not clear, english is not my native language, so feel free to ask :)

nijoX

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@Akasame quote:


@ddace quote:


@Akasame quote:

The etheral spike seems way too powerfull now, but it was a good idea to buff it.
The gas trap radius is quite annoying though. It's too small.

Thanks for the feedback.  How much damage do you think the Ethereal should be hitting for?

My proxies cost me 3 DU and deal 400k while my Etheral Spikes cost me 3 DU and deal 4M. So we should start by raising the cost to 5-6 DU and a x7 dmg scale between proxies and spikes should be good.

BTW, have you guys considered making proxies dmg the same everywhere in their explosion area ?

You do understand that the etherial spike only hits 1 enemy at a time w hile the proxies can hit many enemies at once? Though at the current values, the proxy needs to be hitting at least 10 enemies to surpass the spike. So I do agree it should be dialed back, but you are taking this into account I hope. I don't think the DU cost should change, because that would possibly impact existing builds.

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@Alhanalem quote:
You do understand that the etherial spike only hits 1 enemy at a time w hile the proxies can hit many enemies at once? Though at the current values, the proxy needs to be hitting at least 10 enemies to surpass the spike. So I do agree it should be dialed back, but you are taking this into account I hope. I don't think the DU cost should change, because that would possibly impact existing builds.

Yes I know but I didn't think about it that day. So the DU cost would be fine but only if the damages get a nerf.
Question, does it hit the monster with the most life or the biggest monster(ogre) or does it pick a random target ?
It would be sad to know that it could choose to hit a goblin instead of an ogre.




BTW, have you guys considered making proxies' damages the same everywhere in their explosion area ?

I'm still interested in that.

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A test build Ive been working on.  For those interested, it shows that its not all about minions and auras.  Was a good test for the reduced gas trap size too.








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I think the buff beam change should be reconsidered - it's already more dps efficient to place 1 tower + buff over 2 towers, and this change makes the unupgraded buff beam even more powerful.

I do like the direction of the other changes.  While some may say that a 10x increase in damage is too much, all the affected towers (save EST) cost 7DU or more, and maps like Akatiti aren't too lenient with their DU - at least for me.

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All seems well with the balance changes made to towers excpet the huntress buff on the Ethereal should be tonned down a bit, incresing the cost of them and reducing the damage slightly seems fair. Other then that I am happy with the changes.

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I a 100% agree on the ethereal spike to be way too op, I´d say about 30-40% of the damage right now is more than enough. The other traps are in ion my opinion.

Also I really love the new electric tower the only point I have to make is that the tower apparently picks one random tower from the range which is kind of annoying since on Embermount it is just going all over the map for 20 times when you have 50+ targets. If it would always target the closes enemy I´d actually think about using those towers instead of lightning auras but like this It´s just not relyable to hit anything near itself.

I´d also say that Defensive Squire towers could still need a little hp buff. For example the spike wall, it has half size compared to the wall beam and only does 26k dmg ev 8k hp and squire 8k dmg. I think either a hp or dmg buff would be needed to make the walls compareable since 26k is pretty much nothing. Same goes for slice ´n dice and Bouncer Blockade.

Other than that I think the proton beams and mage tower are now all useable in certain situations and well balanced. Overall good work, every tower has become more useable. Good work so far :D

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@Moonwalk quote:

I´d also say that Defensive Squire towers could still need a little hp buff. For example the spike wall, it has half size compared to the wall beam and only does 26k dmg ev 8k hp and squire 8k dmg. I think either a hp or dmg buff would be needed to make the walls compareable since 26k is pretty much nothing. Same goes for slice ´n dice and Bouncer Blockade.

Other than that I think the proton beams and mage tower are now all useable in certain situations and well balanced. Overall good work, every tower has become more useable. Good work so far :D

Squire towers with current settings are far superior damage- and health-wise. Squire was already superior with 3 powerful towers (Bouncer, Harpoon, Bowling), with the SnD we are counting 4 towers. If anything needs a health buff when that's mage towers, especially the magic blockade even though it costs just 1 DU (but it does not deal any damage).



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I must say I haven't read this entire thread so sorry if I talk about stuff that's already been talked about.


Is changing mechanics a possibility? I feel like towers like slice'n dices can't properly be balanced by just changing damage or health numbers. Giving it enough health to comfortably survive for a long time might be broken, giving them enough damage to one shot everything will make them broken and otherwise they're just useless due to the fact that they have to be manually repaired and WILL take damage by stuff that doesn't instantly die. If we'd like to be in constant stress of something breaking we'd be playing DD2. squire_small.png

You could make them stagger enemies and increase their range so ogres won't charge in and instantly start damaging it. You could make them healable by themselves or different towers like mages heal minions. Using the mage itself would probable make summoner even more of a necessity, but maybe there could be a tower version of it, maybe using healing aura's for that is a good option.

When building something I rarely pay attention to stuff like damage output as mechanics are ussually much much much more important and I feel like balancing should be applied accordingly . You don't use harpoons instead of apprentice towers because they deal more damage, you use them because they pierce and thus do a lot better of a job at luring. You don't use electric aura's over electric apprentice towers because they deal more damage, but because they're not limited in number of targets and drain at a predictable rate and thus probably will never down. You don't use minions over apprentice towers because they deal more damage, but because they're self-sustainable and are free DU-wise. 

I realise this would require a lot of work and testing to balance properly, however, I think it's worth it since only slapping around the numbers a bit will do practically nothing to actually make some of these towers viable without making them over-powered.


Don't start ranting at me, they're just ideas and I realise some of them would probably never work out. I'm just bringing some food for thought to the table.

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