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CDT Update 2 - Tower Balance Discussion

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Since Tower Balance could end up being one of the bigger topics for this update, I figured I would go ahead and create a separate thread for it. Please take time to consider and test each of the changes below and provide your feedback below.  The more detailed your feedback on testing the better of course but even if you are not a numbers person you are free to share any thoughts and opinions you have on the changes.


Tower Balance Changes

  • Tower Buff Beam - Base boost values increased while upgrading effectiveness has been reduced. Fully upgraded buffs are nearly identical, but unupgraded beams are significantly more powerful and the scaling with stats is much more noticeable
  • Slice’N Dice and Lightning Tower - Higher damage output. Damage per tick now increases with the attack rate stat so that damage output continues to scale into lategame (including buffs and debuffs). Scaling revised to account for this.
  • Bowling Ball Tower - Faster attacks. Animation time exponent increased from 0.8 to 1.0 (significant increase in high end attack rate). Bowling ball tower damage had fallen well behind at high levels due to it’s below average animation duration scaling. Increasing the scaling exponent to 1.0 brought the damage up to comparable levels and makes it easier to compare across towers for future changes.
  • Deadly Striker Tower - Slightly slower, more powerful attacks. Animation time exponent increased from 0.67 to 1.0. Attack Rate exponent reduced from 0.77 to 0.6. Damage scaling exponent increased from 1.1 to 1.36 Base damage decreased from 350 to 300. An even worse case than the bowling ball tower for the attack rate being restricted by the firing animation. Overall attack rate scaling was reduced to compensate for the faster animation and keep the tower in it’s niche (slow, high damage). Damage scaling increased to bring it closer to other towers at high stats (because of a quirk in how damage is calculated, base damage remains the same even though it was decreased)
  • Magic Missile Tower - More powerful attacks. Damage scaling exponent increased from 1.105 to 1.15. Single target towers need to do more damage than multi target towers. The MMT wasn’t, so it gets a small buff.
  • Darkness, Inferno, and Gas traps - Base charges increased to 3 from 1/2/2. Trigger radius scaling reduced to match cloud radius scaling to avoid situation with a monk guardian buffed trap could have trigger radius exceed the cloud radius
  • Ethereal Spike Trap - Base charges increased from 2 to 4. Attack radius now scales with trigger radius so it can always hit the enemy that triggered the trap. Damage now scales much, much faster, starting off at ~3.5x a proximity mine trap, and ending up around 10x the same trap
  • Proximity Mine Trap - Base charges increased from 2 to 4


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Additionally, due to bug fixes and improvements, the following may be of interest to balance discussions:

  • Proton beam always deals the damage the tavern dummy says it will. Previously it was half the expected value under most circumstances and multiple proton beams couldn't stack
  • Inferno trap always deals the damage the tavern dummy says it will. Previously at higher stats it was dealing half the expected value
  • Inferno trap attack rate is now affected by attack rate buffs (huntress guardian, TBB)
  • All traps now trigger on any unit walking inside their trigger radius. Hills and steps no longer prevent them firing
  • Proton beam health decay rate was significantly lower than intended due to incorrectly counting the number of enemies it was ticking on (fix is currently having its own issues, to be fixed in next beta update)

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The etheral spike seems way too powerfull now, but it was a good idea to buff it.
The gas trap radius is quite annoying though. It's too small.

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@Akasame quote:

The etheral spike seems way too powerfull now, but it was a good idea to buff it.
The gas trap radius is quite annoying though. It's too small.

Thanks for the feedback.  How much damage do you think the Ethereal should be hitting for?

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A few things I think need rebalanced is the trigger range of the fire traps, sure it seems fair to have same size for both the gas and fire since they are the main triggering traps, the gas range is fine but the fire's range needs to be slightly increased, maybe something in between the gas trap and proxy size. Last the Ethereal Spike Traps damage needs to be slightly nerfed, the buff is nice but its a little much, maybe a 15-25% decrease so they aren't as overpowered.

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My Balancing Feedback

so i dont have as much to say about this as i do the other topic but i got one thing i need to say. the traps have more health this is game changing and amazing. just think about it i can use them again. since i stopped using them because they would die since i never repair when i run maps. Now i can place traps making it go faster and not have to repair at all where normally it would be once and that means i can be even lazier when running maps. and that is a win win if you ask me.

also i like that we are making the squire stuff move viable since right now the meta is basically 3 champions (monk, Summoner, EV) with traps and harps on the side. maybe with these buff we can make a different style of build and have it still be efficient .

Slice and Dice for the win.

have a nice day

Artherial

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@ddace quote:


@Akasame quote:

The etheral spike seems way too powerfull now, but it was a good idea to buff it.
The gas trap radius is quite annoying though. It's too small.

Thanks for the feedback.  How much damage do you think the Ethereal should be hitting for?

My proxies cost me 3 DU and deal 400k while my Etheral Spikes cost me 3 DU and deal 4M. So we should start by raising the cost to 5-6 DU and a x7 dmg scale between proxies and spikes should be good.

BTW, have you guys considered making proxies dmg the same everywhere in their explosion area ?

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Anything to make the App more useful is a good change, I like it all.

I'm not a fan of the gas and fire trap size, 4k range and they're still so tiny, I feel like I'm on Xbox again. Spike traps should be strong, but maybe dial it back a little tiny bit, but I love them though.

I still had issues where Djinn don't trigger spike traps, tested on Deeper Well, I would guide the Djinn all over the map, but they only died if another enemy triggered it.

I'm cool with the Buff beam either way. Barely notice a difference.

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@SupRfirebird quote:I still had issues where Djinn don't trigger spike traps, tested on Deeper Well, I would guide the Djinn all over the map, but they only died if another enemy triggered it.

Fixed for next update, was an issue in how the new ground triggering behaviour (working on slopes...) was filtering flying enemies

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@Akasame quote:


@ddace quote:


@Akasame quote:

The etheral spike seems way too powerfull now, but it was a good idea to buff it.
The gas trap radius is quite annoying though. It's too small.

Thanks for the feedback.  How much damage do you think the Ethereal should be hitting for?

My proxies cost me 3 DU and deal 400k while my Etheral Spikes cost me 3 DU and deal 4M. So we should start by raising the cost to 5-6 DU and a x7 dmg scale between proxies and spikes should be good.

Indeed ethereals are overpowered now i think, as akasame said, maybe raising the DU cost to match its dmg would be a good balance, proxies are awesome (i like to spawn proxies everywhere on my runs :D). Another thing that would be nice (this is my personal opinion) would be if you can look a bit more far with build camera, because even at max vision i still dont see the border of my traps when i place them,and that sometimes make them a bit hard to place (more likely place them by intuition and somethimes after they are build you notice they are missplaced).

Sorry for if i wrote anything wrong, my english is not that good that i would :armwave:

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i haven't really messed with the new towers but i feel like everything is working fine when im building stuff. good job on updating and adding new stuff to the game!

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I don't see any reason to separate it from the regular discussion... and I havent seen this to be honest.


Here you go to my thoughts -> here

Be warned I'm not that happy with these drastic changes... small steps... small.

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EagleOne quote:

Maximum Start Wave

Skeleton / Chicken run 28/35 35mins, 33/35 15mins. That's too fast for my taste. If you want to grind for best possible stuff you should invest some time. Making such runs faster just leads to a shorter overall play-time. What's left if you have no goals anymore? We really don't need to speed up gearing. I would like a complete revert of this change but at least 23/25, 28/30, 30/35, 35/40 as a settlement. -> here

Not everyone is able to start from such waves as 33 and up so it's a fair change. Also Skeletons nice but don't compare to diamonds and ToT so it's no big deal if someone can farm skeletons under a bit less than a century. Also there is still a better goal than chickens, ult Seahorses and seahorses run are much faster.

Arch

It is like the training dummies went back to school on showing us information. they have come back even smarter than before. every patch they just seem to be cooler and cooler. next time they will get cool sunglasses and or top hats.

That's a great idea. Make it happen CDT !


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@Akasame quote:


EagleOne quote:

Maximum Start Wave

Skeleton / Chicken run 28/35 35mins, 33/35 15mins. That's too fast for my taste. If you want to grind for best possible stuff you should invest some time. Making such runs faster just leads to a shorter overall play-time. What's left if you have no goals anymore? We really don't need to speed up gearing. I would like a complete revert of this change but at least 23/25, 28/30, 30/35, 35/40 as a settlement. -> here

Not everyone is able to start from such waves as 33 and up so it's a fair change. Also Skeletons nice but don't compare to diamonds and ToT so it's no big deal if someone can farm skeletons under a bit less than a century. Also there is still a better goal than chickens, ult Seahorses and seahorses run are much faster.

That's what I thought will happen if we have 2 basically equal threads ^^ Actually this should belong to the other thread :) However, this maps can will be farmed on Insane, I'd say everyone who wants to farm a perfect one will have the stats to start from Wave 33 on Insane, it's more a kind of end-game grind.

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@EagleOne quote:

I don't see any reason to separate it from the regular discussion... and I havent seen this to be honest.


Here you go to my thoughts -> here

Be warned I'm not that happy with these drastic changes... small steps... small.

In addition to my suggestion how stats could affect TBB, a bit more detailed example.

EyDN9pA.png

The diagram shows that stats had almost no impact when upgrading a TBB. Upgrading an old TBB added 0.156-0.158 to its boost value (here damage) regardless of stats (blue line). With my suggestion the change depends on tower stats, e.g. a stat of 0 will only add 0.05 to a boost value per upgrade, a stats of 1000 will already add 0.084 to a boost value per upgrade and so on...

High-end TBB won't change much, a slightly less damage boost value therefore a slightly better rate and range boost (see below). What basically changes are low-end TBB, they will be weaker than before but stats will have a noticeable impact while upgrading remains important.

________
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
5943 / 4775 / 2630    / 3514

old non-upgraded: 1.57 / 1.38 / 1.15 / 1.26
old 3-star'd: 2.35 / 2.07 / 1.61 / 1.77
my 3-star'd: 2.31 / 2.07 / 1.72 / 1.89

________
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
4967 / 3835 / 2490    / 2878

old non-upgraded: 1.55 / 1.37 / 1.15 / 1.26
old 3-star'd: 2.33 / 2.05 / 1.60 / 1.76
my 3-star'd: 2.25 / 2.01 / 1.71 / 1.83

________
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
3480 / 2420 / 1460    / 1878

old non-upgraded: 1.53 / 1.35 / 1.14 / 1.24
old 3-star'd: 2.29 / 2.02 / 1.59 / 1.74
my 3-star'd: 2.16 / 1.90 / 1.61 / 1.74

________
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
2400 / 1400 / 1050    / 1020

old non-upgraded: 1.50 / 1.32 / 1.13 / 1.23
old 3-star'd: 2.25 / 1.99 / 1.59 / 1.72
my 3-star'd: 2.05 / 1.79 / 1.55 / 1.65

________
Specialized Rate Beam...
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
2400 / 4775 / 2630 / 6000

old non-upgraded: 1.50 / 1.38 / 1.15 / 1.27
old 3-star'd: 2.25 / 2.07 / 1.61 / 1.78
my 3-star'd: 2.05 / 2.07 / 1.72 / 2.01

________
Specialized Range Beam...
DMG / Health / Range / Rate
2400 / 4775 / 6000 / 3514

old non-upgraded: 1.50 / 1.38 / 1.16 / 1.26
old 3-star'd: 2.25 / 2.07 / 1.62 / 1.78
my 3-star'd: 2.05 / 2.07 / 2.12 / 1.89


To make this effect even more noticeable, the base values should be a little bit more affected by stats (non-upgraded TBB). Just compare base damage boost of a stat of 5943 (1.57) and of 2400 (1.50 -> make it 1.40). As lower the stat as lower its base value. If you are interested into more numbers of the diagram just message me...

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The Feedback :

1-  auras can hit the the Tavren Dummy wich is nice we dont have to test our auras strength in maps we can do it in the Tavren now

2-  Slice’N Dice and Lightning Tower deals much higher dmg than the last . as it should be we can now use them in the combat (NMHC)

3-  Bowling and harpoon is clearly Faster . now we dont have to say that a high attack rate is a waste anymore ;)

4-  it doesent matter that the Deadly sriker is slower well its almost unnoticeable but clearly it has way more dmg than the last time wich is in my opinion is great Deadly strikes should be a Tank between Defenses and now it is ;)

5-  Gas Traps Range is kinda annoying its alot smaller now i think the gas trap range should be lower than the other traps but that low it

6-  Inferno Traps is so small now and annoying tbh :/ there is no point on making there range lower it should be the same as the prox traps

7-  Magic Missels is more powerful now we can actuly use them in combat it use to suck so bad tbh and thank god you guys have increased its damge

8- Ethereal Spike Trap now can hit all the small mobs (Goblins , Orcs ...) but it cant hit the ogers . ogers doesent get close to get effected by it

9-  Buff beams is good its almost the same you cant see alot of diffrense from now and back then so its good :)

10-  I agree with Arch it will be a great idea to change the look of the Dummy to match the Volcano Tavren style

Final Note :

my Overl all Opinion on it is thats its great thank you CDT for the great changes Hope that we see more if it in the Future and thank you acen for the effert :)

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some things I think need rebalanced is the trigger range of the fire and gas traps, sure it seems fair to have same size for both the gas and fire, but it happens that the gas traps gets triggered before fire and that is annoying. Last the Ethereal Spike Traps damage needs a small nerf to it's dmg.

-i like that you are making apprentice towers a thing again

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All right for some feedback:


- Gas/inferno range: Same as everyone else in here. 

- Fine job on the app towers

- Fine job on the squire towers

(Personally I appreciate both of the above as they seem to make their way back into the popular style of building)

- Since the end result is almost the same on buff beams I think it is all right do make the change that we see in the beta. It makes it easier to upgrade at least the buffs in time. This is a change that lower end players probably appreciate as it gives them more of a "buffer" when they for instance try to break into nightmare.


I'll add anything in case I run into it on the beta.

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@EagleOne quote:

I don't see any reason to separate it from the regular discussion... and I havent seen this to be honest.


Here you go to my thoughts -> here

Be warned I'm not that happy with these drastic changes... small steps... small.

In addition to my thoughts about the DST...


What makes the DST special?

The combination of very long range, wall piercing ability and target prioritizing of flying enemies such as Wyvern, Djinns and Goblin Copters makes them a perfect anti-air defense. Placing them smart, you are able to protect spots against Wyvern and Djinns although the DST itself has been build on another spot. You are able to shoot down Goblin Copters before they even reach the subfloor.

Nonetheless, once a DST is unable to attack a flying enemy it will targeting regular enemies. The nearest. Smart placing is still a thing; You are still able to attract / lure regular Ogres from other spots. These Ogres will stuck in one of your other defenses unable to deal any damage since it tries to reach the DST.

The disadvantage of being such a long-ranged defense; Shots are missing if an enemy changes its walking/flying direction during the travel time of a projectile. The DST has no homing projectiles, enemy positions will be "predicted". When I was talking about less effectiveness, I was considering missing shots (which happens frequently) and the decreased fire rate. Taking both into account it takes way longer to kill a flying enemy.

Last but not least, I'd say about 95% of enemies have much less health than the DST is able to deal currently. That means we are wasting a lot of its damage potential, the DST will deal a minority of its potential DPS which you have seen at your Tavern dummy.

Example:
- Kings Game,
- DSTs placed at bottom level,
- incoming enemies from south-east, 6 Wyvern + 2 Ogres,
- every third shot misses (collected experience using them very-long ranged)

Wyvern primary target... miss (0.00), hit, hit, miss, hit, hit, miss, hit, hit... Wyvern dead...
Ogre secondary target... miss, hit (attracted), hit (ogre rears up), if we are unlucky we miss otherwise we hit the 2nd ogre which passed the 1st ogre

new
1933k per projectile at a rate of 0.75:
time needed... 9 seconds (lucky), 9.75 seconds (unlucky)
lost damage potential: at least 6x (1933k damage - 151k health) = 10692k + missing shots


old
622k per projectile at a rate of 0.64:
time needed... 7.6 seconds (lucky), 8.3 seconds (unlucky)
lost damage potential: at least 6x (622k damage - 151k health) = 2826k + missing shots

This example is seems to be very theoretical but it hopefully shows off the flaw. If you build DSTs backwards of your minion walls, facing your minion walls, you better build Fireball Towers, Harpoon Turrets, Bowling Ball Turrets or Party Poppers. They won't prioritize flying enemies unless they are the nearest enemies.


DPS calculation (Tavern Dummy)
(not a good thing, since people care about HIGH dps numbers more than actual dealing damage in-game)
new 1933k / 0.75 = 2577k DPS
old 622k / 0.64 = 971k DPS

my 622k (old damage scaling) / 0.42 (increased fire rate) = 1480k DPS at a DU cost of 7 instead of 8
time needed... 5 seconds (lucky), 5.5 seconds (unlucky)
lost damage potential: at least 6x (622k damage - 151k health) = 2826k + missing shots

Fireball Towers, Harpoon Turrets, Bowling Ball Turrets and Party Poppers are still better DPS-wise but we don't need to bring everything on par with the op turrets DPS-wise. And even more important... nerfing things backwards will always lead to complaints. Do way smaller steps when buffing towers since balancing is a very hard process.

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@EagleOne quote:

Be warned I'm not that happy with these drastic changes... small steps... small.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read it.  It all looked good, then I saw ethereal traps - woah!  Big change.  Nobody uses them anyway, but perhaps that's what they're looking to change.

Overall, I'm okay with the changes - magic missile towers are indeed quite under powered, and needed a good nudge.

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The huntress spike trap does loads. I personally think it needed a buff though. At around 5.2k damage the trap does over a million. (While still on the huntress, about 9.8mill while on another character?) I think slice and dice will be used more. It does  more damage than the bouncer, but slice has a bit less health. (I dont know the percent even though it's probably up there) I do like how you can see damage of the electric aura. I don't know about my thoughts on the whole buff beam thing. Seems a bit weird to me. Hmm, I think that's about it for towers on my side. 

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@Vetokend quote:


@EagleOne quote:

Be warned I'm not that happy with these drastic changes... small steps... small.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read it.  It all looked good, then I saw ethereal traps - woah!  Big change.  Nobody uses them anyway, but perhaps that's what they're looking to change.

Overall, I'm okay with the changes - magic missile towers are indeed quite under powered, and needed a good nudge.

If anyone want that much op towers, there is open mode. I personally think strategy has to be a thing in a Tower Defense. I'm okay that a few towers receive a buff but stay reasonable. The changes of the Magic Missile Tower and Bowling Ball are absolutely fine and the step is reasonable. Also Lightning Tower seems to be a well-thought change, even though it is a big change.


The message in my posts is; "Better we do three, four or even ten small steps than a single one over the edge."


Currently it is more like build anything and sit more or less afk at a spot - its fun to start with but it gets boring quite fast - hence open mode is perfect if you want such a gameplay.


1st try Akatiti NMHC 5k Slice'N Dice / Lightning Tower Build -> here

1st try Akatiti NMHC 5k Trap Build -> here


BTW you are able to beat a huge part of the game on NM already without building Auras or Minions. I myself doubt that auras are obsolete, middo has proven me wrong with his 6k heroes. Knowledge and strategy makes the difference.



EDIT:

Hmm, would it be op making Lightning Towers less "random" by targeting Wyvern first then all others?

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EST was obviously a mistake. Everyone knows it, it will be changed.

"Iterative balance changes"
if we're dealing with stuff that's even remotely in the ballpark, I would agree with you (see MMT). SnD / Lit tower / Mana Bomb / DST / EST were quite obviously not, hence why they got bumped into the ballpark so we could get actual feedback and iterate during the beta period.

"Currently it is more like build anything and sit more or less afk at a spot"

Sure if you play the game at stats/difficulty that isn't really intended to have any challenge. You're using 5k builders in campaign, how is that supposed to require any strategy.

Comment on video - "Less healing required with 4 SNDs than with 4 Archers" :
Well duh, DU > MU in everything except health scaling (I dare someone to plot minion health scaling against any other tower and try calling it sensible).
Archers are weak, single target, and slow attackers. Their only advantage is the ability to tank (health scaling + mage minion) and act as an ogre faceplant because they draw so little damage aggro
Slice'n Dice is the opposite. It's 8 DU of high damage, multi target hell. A little on the squishy side but that doesn't really matter against an enemy in it's range since it'll be shredded ASAP. Weak against ranged enemies, and that DU cost can be difficult to stomach

If you want to complain about OP towers, please provide examples that should atleast stretch your builders, whether that be by dumping stats or doing something more challenging.

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@CrzyRndm quote:

EST was obviously a mistake. Everyone knows it, it will be changed.

"Iterative balance changes"
if we're dealing with stuff that's even remotely in the ballpark, I would agree with you (see MMT). SnD / Lit tower / Mana Bomb / DST / EST were quite obviously not, hence why they got bumped into the ballpark so we could get actual feedback and iterate during the beta period.

"Currently it is more like build anything and sit more or less afk at a spot"

Sure if you play the game at stats/difficulty that isn't really intended to have any challenge. You're using 5k builders in campaign, how is that supposed to require any strategy.

Comment on video - "Less healing required with 4 SNDs than with 4 Archers" :
Well duh, DU > MU in everything except health scaling (I dare someone to plot minion health scaling against any other tower and try calling it sensible).
Archers are weak, single target, and slow attackers. Their only advantage is the ability to tank (health scaling + mage minion) and act as an ogre faceplant because they draw so little damage aggro
Slice'n Dice is the opposite. It's 8 DU of high damage, multi target hell. A little on the squishy side but that doesn't really matter against an enemy in it's range since it'll be shredded ASAP. Weak against ranged enemies, and that DU cost can be difficult to stomach

If you want to complain about OP towers, please provide examples that should atleast stretch your builders, whether that be by dumping stats or doing something more challenging.

Sounds like you feel offended, that was not my intention  -.-


I'm not doing anything else than providing my feedback on the tower changes. Anyways I'm not going to mince matters like some others. A few things were done perfectly fine but others not and I do mention these things. Furthermore I'm trying to leave some evidence to underline my concerns and thoughts. I'm not doing it to make anyone look like an idiot, I want to help to make the game better, hence my suggested numbers to each of the towers and the more detailed reply to TBB and DST.

I really hope you don't want to see the same builds while using myth builders or even less 2k builders. I can assure you that these builds will work with that low stats as I know that the 2k 4 Archer builds works perfectly fine... and I had less to do at both provided runs above.

In the meantime I've done exact the same run just with 2kish stats (not exactly 2k cuz I just dropped gear to not screw with my builders). Needless to say I had a bit more to do during combat phase but still less than with 4 Archers at 2k stats. Damage to the crystal are dealt by wyvern, I kept using the Lightning Tower instead of an Electric Aura.


"Comment on video"
I didn't compared health of towers and minions -.- I said I had to heal less even though you would expect physical towers to be more squishy. Minions heal themselves, physical towers don't. You may forget that English isn't my native language, so whenever something seems strange or obscure... how about to question something :)



@CrzyRndm quote:

[...] You're using 5k builders in campaign, how is that supposed to require any strategy.

[...] If you want to complain about OP towers, please provide examples that should atleast stretch your builders, whether that be by dumping stats or doing something more challenging.

These two sentences looks like all towers were fine before, so why buffing towers at all if you are going to say later; dump your stats and they won't be OP? Again I'm not here to blame anyone or to clap on anyone's back. I appreciate the time spent of the CDT as I exactly know how much time it takes to script/code something, especially at a project you haven't worked on since the beginning. Anyways, so long the most constructive feedback here, no?

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