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talynone

Stop promoting the myth that archers are the best defense for every map

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Archers are not the best defense for every situation.  I've seen countless builds fail because people relied too much on the myth that you can just dump archers everywhere and autowin. They're garbage at heavy crowd control (yes, even with explosive arrows). They only excel when they can kill in one shot or have a long pathway to keep shooting within their radius before reaching a wall/objective. That's why some archer builds completely fail in situations where people aren't playing solo, the threshold of a one/shot efficient kills gets passed when you have 3 or 4 players in your team. 

I have maxed 700 ipwr, 10% archers and I still think frosties/geyers/electric auras work better in gates incursion and ramparts (archers can work in ramparts, but the build is ugly and gets messy once they reach the main crystal area with multiple players).

Archer only builds work on Betsy, but it makes the map very unfun as it leads players to have to hang back behind the side walls. The best archer Betsy build I've seen also used geysers, ramsters and frosties, and placed a few archers in key places so it allowed all the players to run around as they please, including the boss wave. 

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@NineO_OSix quote:

how good an archer is is based on how good the SA is.

My serenity monk has 4.2k dp , 397% purge with 2300 range, 15% zen monument and empowering calm, is that good enough? I stand by my statements above. 

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I have no problems in NM IV Gates Incursion with an Archer build.

If you have problems with them there then you aren't doing it right.

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@Skullbob quote:

I have no problems in NM IV Gates Incursion with an Archer build.

If you have problems with them there then you aren't doing it right.

I can pass gates with no attacking defenses and only dps, that's not the point. The point is using only archers on gates incursion is a bad build. 


Also 100% of the time when people claim afk builds with only archers and four players I ask the to prove it to me  100% of the time they leave or their attempt to prove it to me fails, 100% of the time. I've even done this with so called best players in the game. I've done this at least 7-8 times with different players. People like to talk a lot of crap. 

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It wouldn't be a Dungeon Defender game if Archers weren't the best defenses.

DD1 Summoner's Archers.

DDE Summoner's Archers.

DD2 Abyss Lord Archers.

You guys don't see a pattern here?

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

It wouldn't be a Dungeon Defender game if Archers weren't the best defenses.

DD1 Summoner's Archers.

DDE Summoner's Archers.

DD2 Abyss Lord Archers.

You guys don't see a pattern here?

Yea, the pattern is you don't know what you're talking about. In dd1 using only archers would mean you have a fail build in nightmare. You also need an aura stack (elec, strength drain and slow), buff beams, possibly reflects, and for survival builds gas + explosive traps and harps or fire towers to deal with large mobs on later waves. 


On non survival builds for King's Game I didn't even bother with archers, wasn't needed, harps could bring  you all the way home easily. 

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@talynone quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

It wouldn't be a Dungeon Defender game if Archers weren't the best defenses.

DD1 Summoner's Archers.

DDE Summoner's Archers.

DD2 Abyss Lord Archers.

You guys don't see a pattern here?

Yea, the pattern is you don't know what you're talking about. In dd1 using only archers would mean you have a fail build in nightmare. You also need an aura stack (elec, strength drain and slow), buff beams, possibly reflects, and for survival builds harps or fire towers to deal with large mobs on later waves. 

No one mentioned using just Archers. We are talking about the strongest defense in general. No one defense can be used efficiently with out the something else to help it.

Also don't insult me with telling me how to build defenses in DD1 where strategy was actually required. Go back to playing and enjoying your casual DD2 atm while you can, instead of looking for a fight you can't win.

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@roboticaust quote:

Until the exploit is fixed, yes archers are the end all, be all solution to everything.

Few people know about the exploit. Those that do know how to build with other defenses anyways. I'm talking about people who don't know how to build with other builders and are led to believe archers are the end all/be all by people who use exploits. 

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Who says archers are the best on every map ? The thing is they are the best on betsy  and throne room and ramparts and catacombs and harbinger which are all the maps that really matter :)

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:


@talynone quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

It wouldn't be a Dungeon Defender game if Archers weren't the best defenses.

DD1 Summoner's Archers.

DDE Summoner's Archers.

DD2 Abyss Lord Archers.

You guys don't see a pattern here?

Yea, the pattern is you don't know what you're talking about. In dd1 using only archers would mean you have a fail build in nightmare. You also need an aura stack (elec, strength drain and slow), buff beams, possibly reflects, and for survival builds harps or fire towers to deal with large mobs on later waves. 

No one mentioned using just Archers. We are talking about the strongest defense in general. No one defense can be used efficiently with out the something else to help it.

Also don't insult me with telling me how to build defenses in DD1 where strategy was actually required. Go back to playing and enjoying your casual DD2 atm while you can, instead of looking for a fight you can't win.

Are you playing DD2 yet? Why do you post here? 

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[[40613,users]] I post here to make the game better with constructive and not sugar coat it. I also like to keep up to date with the game's changes and to see when it starts to meet the standards I have set for it.

Which finally it looks like it's addressing my biggest concern, lack of a challenge. Now back to OP Archer talk, I'm quite enjoying this thread.

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@Pegazul quote:

Who says archers are the best on every map ? The thing is they are the best on betsy  and throne room and ramparts and catacombs and harbinger which are all the maps that really matter :)


Archers are best dps for single target enemies, they're horri bad at mobs. They work exactly as intended, an alternative to frosty/traps, but it's a trade off. Also if you can't clear mobs by the time air shows up, gg. This is were a lot of noob builds fail. Frosties don't buff archers, but help a lot with mobs just to slow them down.  Serens help with weak mobs. I also prefer squire walls over orc walls in a lot of situations. Orc walls have a bigger radius but they bleed splash damage out the back, especially from kobolds, and don't have automation. Ramsters are cool for a guaranteed drench but the trade off is no buff from frosties like a geyser would get (also the passive from the harb geyser weapon is pretty sweet). 

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Show me a video of you using no archers then finishing a map. Rules are you can upgrade inbetween rounds but not allow to repair or attack in combat phase. Has to be a 4 player map. Then i will make a video of me using archers doing thr same map same rules. If u can do it and i cant i admit defeat. If you can do it and i can you admit defeat.

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@talynone quote:


@Pegazul quote:

Who says archers are the best on every map ? The thing is they are the best on betsy  and throne room and ramparts and catacombs and harbinger which are all the maps that really matter :)


Archers are best dps for single target enemies, they're horri bad at mobs. They work exactly as intended, an alternative to frosty/traps, but it's a trade off. Also if you can't clear mobs by the time air shows up, gg. This is were a lot of noob builds fail. Frosties don't buff archers, but help a lot with mobs just to slow them down.  Serens help with weak mobs. I also prefer squire walls over orc walls in a lot of situations. Orc walls have a bigger radius but they bleed splash damage out the back, especially from kobolds, and don't have automation. Ramsters are cool for a guaranteed drench but the trade off is no buff from frosties like a geyser would get (also the passive from the harb geyser weapon is pretty sweet). 

With the explosive arrows and purge they clear aoe just fine. As long as you got high end archers its pretty hard to fail.

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I'm not shy about my feelings toward 9oo6 at all, but I actually want to see this 'bet' of sorts play out because I think he has a point here.

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he wont do it cuz he knows i am right. For most maps I pop a few  flame throwers cuz they pretty cool but i can easily go without them.

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@talynone quote:


@NineO_OSix quote:

how good an archer is is based on how good the SA is.

My serenity monk has 4.2k dp , 397% purge with 2300 range, 15% zen monument and empowering calm, is that good enough? I stand by my statements above. 

You might consider swapping the empowering calm for the gambit sphere. 

Thanks for the post. This has made for some entertaining reading while afking my 5 daily maps

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I have yet to play a map where archers are not the best/easiest build, i even played maps nobody plays anymore just to make sure that archers really can clear all maps. Iv'e tried(and won) every single 1000ipwr map with a build that included only archers, walls and serenity, even Nimbus reach (the map nobody plays).

Now it might be because i have 43100 dps on my archers and my serenity have 16200 dmg and 2500 range (without gambit sphere). But as long as you have good archers and serenity, those towers are most certainly the way to go.

And for the record, im not using the archer exploit, there's simply no need for it.

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Stop calling builds good and bad to begin with. Builds should literally be categorized in "working" or "not working". Any build that can complete a certain map on a certain difficulty is a "good" build. 

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im clearing mobs easily on nm4 inc due to archer explosion and purge. anyway having an all archer build is quite troublesome on gates but doable. those pesky flying kobolds are very annoying.

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@talynone quote:

people relied too much on the myth that you can just dump archers everywhere and autowin.

yeah... too bad you can

archers are so annoyingly op it hurts, they totally destroy the game


ofc ppl like you dont realize that after you free farm for months with an op build yeah then even others become good cause you have tons of free loot you wouldnt have otherwise


but this was only possible cause of archers


and its the same that happened in dd1 all the time, cheaters, unbalances etc etc and then some legit gear pops out

gear those guys couldnt ever have without those problems

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One of the biggest reasons archers are OP is because the gear is super easy to get. Finding 8-10% archer with DP is super easy compared to a perfect tripwire/volatile/Dcrit/DP/DCP. So not only are archers straight up more OP. They are also significantly easier to gear for, making them OP on top of OP :)

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