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  Action tower defense games, they combine the strategic tower building gameplay of tower defenses, with action elements so they aren't boring during waves. But does Dungeon Defenders do this?


  The problem is, for an action tower defense, dungeon defenders is lacking in action. Most the time what you're playing can be done with just your towers, with no real need or purpose in shooting anything. Even when you do need to shoot something the combat is far from action packed, it mostly is about holding the left click button and aiming kind of at stuff, but don't worry auto aim will correct it, to make it feel even more like you could just be playing in your sleep. Theoretically there is some need to dodge, but not really, most enemies you just walk away from slowly, and they can't hit you. Even against harbinger you should be able to dodge every attack. ( and very easily with the run and gun sphere.)

  You see the thing is, I don't count holding left click as action, and it's certainly not fun or engaging to do for the hundreds of hours of gameplay this game is intended to have. Even the abyss lord is not very interesting as far as combat goes, because while he does have some more interesting abilities, he's still fighting the same boring enemies that don't really fight back, so you just wail on them uncontested, and repetitively. And once again, there's no reason to really even bother fighting when his archers can handle everything, and it's not fun to fight enemies that were destined to die anyway before you intervened.

  I think the idea behind this super simple combat is that it should be where anyone can win, but it makes the combat so repetitive almost everyone seems to afk whenever they can, so when everybody wins, everybody loses. Also making this game easy in combat and strategy kills the duration the game lasts for as you breeze through it with no challenge, and don't have to work on builds or retry maps hardly at all, except for the pointless boring nm3-4 grind, and everyone hates it, and it's not how you should increase game longevity. Retrying with new strategies and builds to try to beat a map is far more entertaining than repeating because you just have to do it over and over to progress, because the game starves you for good loot.




  But here I'm going to be talking about what I'd say would make somewhat interesting combat. For starters, you shots need to not aim themselves. I'm not sure who auto-aim is supposed to appeal too, but it doesn't. I have never heard someone say "I'm so glad this game has auto aim" about anything, and if you think you need it so it will be easier for little kids, you don't! Minecraft has more complicated and skill based combat than this, and you know what it's fine, because small children often just screw around building stuff and don't seriously try for difficult game content, like they did in DD1. And if you want a small child friendly mode, make a kids mode! You have normalized play, make an easy normalized mode where you are stronger instead of making the whole game stupid easy!

  Further more, you need to not be movement locked in melee combat. Pressing left click and literally nothing else because you can't while attacking is not good melee combat. For the thousandth time remove step forward melee. Also the self lock-down from abilities should be less, some abilities are near dps neutral because of the amount of time they stop you firing, oil flask is way down. Abilities need to be significant because with out them you're back at left click combat, and no one wants to do that for hours.

  The alt fires should also be worth using, I'm not sure why these are programmed in and then left in a useless state. The huntress's is great if you want to lower your dps, the knights is great if you don't want to deal damage, but as for how useful they really are, they're not. There are some easy solutions to these too.

  For instance on the knight add an effect to every shield it doesn't make sense why blocking is only going to be a thing you'd ever want to do with the new fire sword, or why that's a sword passive at all and not on the shield. Every shield should give some reason to block, and there are plenty of different things you can put onto loot like:

  • Hitting the squires shield deals damage back to enemies
  • Hitting the squires shield heals the squire
  • The squires shield reflects projectiles
  • The squires shield stuns enemies who hit it

  Also it shouldn't take so long to block. You have to wait for the animation of your attack to end, wait for the shielding animation, and afterward wait for the shielding animation to end before starting your combo over from the beginning... If it takes a second to block that's just too slow and it makes it hard to justify wasting the time. The same thing goes for the monks secondary requiring him to end his melee combo and being incredibly awkward to use...


  But possibly most importantly, the enemies need to fight back... At least there were dark elf warriors and spiders in DD1... In this game there are meat shield enemies that are about as good at fighting back as the dummies in the tavern. You wouldn't enjoy shooting the training dummies for hours, and it's not enjoyable shooting the current enemies for hours...

  The most basic solution is simple, re-introduce warriors, or dark assassins as the new warriors. A good solution would be to actually add multiple enemies that fight back at a somewhat threatening level. For instance lets start with an idea for the dark assassin.

  Dark assassins could be introduced as stealth enemies that fight players. It's fairly simple, they just need to be able to bypass defenses, and be invisible most the time, periodically flashing visible. Then they can move in an unpredictable randomized pattern toward players, and if they get close enough they slash you for very high damage. These enemies would encourage awareness, as if you don't keep track of them they can sneak up on you or you can accidentally get to close while they are invisible.

  Dark elf warriors should also be re-introduced. I know dark elfs are now tiny creatures with big heads that live in books, but maybe the warriors could be in magical suits of armor, working as a fantasy equivalent to a mech, maybe with open or transparent panels so you can see their tiny bodies only occupy the chestplate. I can't draw this sadly though.

  Anyway dark elf warriors should attack players, or attempt to attack defenses from behind if players aren't near. They should keep their jump, and as an added bonus for skyguard it could target them during it. However I'd like to see the dash altered, as the other one was to easy to avoid. The replacement I'd like would be a zig-zag dash, where they dash diagonally repeatedly and try to hit you from an angle. It would make them harder to simply shoot mid dash, and if they zig-zag further if they don't make contact with a player, it would make it so you couldn't just backstep to dodge.

  Here's another idea, in NM there could be an alternate rare warrior, I'd call them dark elf infiltrators, and these could attack the core when players are not near enough. Now wait a minute, this sounds like they could be threatening! Oh wait, NM enemies should be! And it's not quite like a flying warrior is actually that much worse than flying flyers anyway.

  There should also be some ranged enemies that can actually target the player and hit a stationary target. (I'm looking at you spray-kin) Probably even a ranged enemy that hunts the player.

  And other enemies that don't jump towers can also be made to be a threat... Here's an idea, dark elf storm mages, they ride  on storm clouds instead of books because books r dumb nd 4 squares and they summon lightning clouds that follow players. The lightning clouds chase players shooting lightning strikes down rapidly, if you stay still or double back you'll run into the lightning. I know it doesn't sound like the most threatening attack but if you've ever played snake you probably understand the concept of why this could be an issue, especially when other enemies are trying to attack at the same time.

  Anyway the point is it's not hard to come up with enemies that fight in more interesting ways than walking forward and hitting a barricade until they die...

  One more thing the game needs for interesting combat, multiple weapons. Now I know you're probably thinking, there are multiple weapons, but then again the types of bows include burst bows, armor cleansers, and things you don't pick up... I can't understand why anyone would want a scatter bow, it's basically a bow with low accuracy and range, for no upside. Essentially it's like they made a shotgun weapon and made it hit the same damage as the pistol, why use the inaccurate one? Clearly the scatter should deal somewhat higher damage for it to even be worth thinking about before you drop it. Other shot patterns could also use some advantages tied into different types so they're not all the same...

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As soon as they make the enemies not dumb, the game becomes pretty much RNG based and impossible. If you want an action game find anything with a Horde Mode. If the enemies aren't impossible they're super boring and easy because you can just put on movement speed bonus and run around in big circles while your towers kill everything or your allies.

You're supposed to be going around stunning enemies, triggering environmental traps, repairing stuff that's broken. If you wanted Dodge and Roll mechanics go playing a Souls game, Diablo 3, you know what ever.

Those storm cloud ideas seem like a great idea until someone ends up running near a spawn point and now no one can go do anything because as soon as you try to escape you die. Then there comes the issue of abusing deaths if you make an invincibility timer to counter that, and then you have to tweak how soon you have till you can use your abilities, and before you know it they're just spending a month trying to figure out if there's anyway to make the game balanced, while adding things that just make the game more frustrating than fun.

Then there's the stuff about it taking a whole second to block or switch to ranged attacks. If they didn't have a delay instead of just holding down a button you'd just be getting repetitive motion injuries just sitting there going back and forth between attacks to spam them.

You really just seem to like Elves. All of your ideas seem to revolve around Dark Elves... So another problem with one of your ideas is that you want these infiltrators to attack and the core, by bypassing everything else.

Until the game basically devolves into "I can't play a melee class because playing Solo I have to sit on the objectives and babysit them"

Then you also have issues with solo players being unable to do anything because as soon as they try and manage their build, there's an infiltrator attacking. I played stuff like that with Dynasty Warriors and it was ANNOYING AS HELL to travel all the way over to another side of the map, to try and do an objective, and then have an emergency objective, travel all the way back, kill it, start running back to the thing I WANTED to do, and then have to go back because had I waited 30 seconds another emergency objective would have popped up...

At that point these dark elf infiltrators are basically making you play the game even less, especially solo.

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TL:DR I think that if you were part of a development team and you had any creative control, you'd find that most of your ideas are just sort of pulling from other games, without really thinking of the consequences of your ideas, and you seem to have a real fascination with Dark Elves.

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TL;DR however, play a harder difficulty and you will have action. I would say in solo their is not enough power given to towers. If however you can AFK NM4 on all maps, you have completed the content :)

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I agree with Zimmermann. Oh a phrase I never thought I could utter to be honest.

But anyway the only time someone should have a problem where they are bored and have nothing to do and feel like they're just holding down the left click button...

You would have had to have farmed up a perfect Squire Build for his blockades, have a perfect Apprentice Ice Tower build, and an amazing DPS build, and found a place where you can see all towers at the same time and playing on a difficulty far too low level for you. A perfect serenity build might also be neccessary.

Cause stuff in this game hits like a truck. My 200k defensive barricades are destroyed in mere seconds on some modes. I imagine playing on a harder difficulty with perfect gear at 1 million HP barricades won't last too terribly long either afking.

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@braydon180 quote:

TL;DR the game needs better combat.

I agree. They are introducing new enemies which could make it more fun. Think once they pumped out all this stuff it should get more exciting once its all balanced up. Maybe.

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@MakaiOokami quote:

Cause stuff in this game hits like a truck. My 200k defensive barricades are destroyed in mere seconds on some modes. I imagine playing on a harder difficulty with perfect gear at 1 million HP barricades won't last too terribly long either afking.

I literally AFK incursions solo, and so does a decently-sized portion of the endgame community.

Just saying, it's both possible and common enough to not be "OMG you're so well-geared".

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What difficulty though?

I mean if you're doing the top content on the top difficulty then "OMG you're so well geared" is a proper statement. I mean what content can they not do if they can AFK and how is shoe-horning in odd mechanics going to do to make the game more fun? It will probably just make it impossible for people to solo, and at that point the game will probably collapse because of too many people being "Carried" all the way up the ladder and not understanding how to actually play. So you'll end up with people who have no skills and tons of gear, playing with people who have good skills and meh gear, playing together.

That's not a good situation to be in.

@TheWittyScamp quote:


@MakaiOokami quote:

Cause stuff in this game hits like a truck. My 200k defensive barricades are destroyed in mere seconds on some modes. I imagine playing on a harder difficulty with perfect gear at 1 million HP barricades won't last too terribly long either afking.

I literally AFK incursions solo, and so does a decently-sized portion of the endgame community.

Just saying, it's both possible and common enough to not be "OMG you're so well-geared".


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@MakaiOokami quote:

What difficulty though?

I mean if you're doing the top content on the top difficulty then "OMG you're so well geared" is a proper statement. I mean what content can they not do if they can AFK and how is shoe-horning in odd mechanics going to do to make the game more fun? It will probably just make it impossible for people to solo, and at that point the game will probably collapse because of too many people being "Carried" all the way up the ladder and not understanding how to actually play. So you'll end up with people who have no skills and tons of gear, playing with people who have good skills and meh gear, playing together.

That's not a good situation to be in.

NM4. There are threads on here, if you're so inclined, that show how to set up incursions so that you don't have to do anything at all during the combat phase. And this is with far from optimal gear.

Some more flavourful combat mechanics are an interesting way to bump up the difficulty and increase the skill cap, both of which are things that the endgame community has been incredibly thirsty for since All Hallow's Eve.

As far as people being carried up the ladder, and as someone that's carried people up that ladder because at least it's SOMETHING to do since the endgame is so meh, I don't care. TE has already hinted at an NM5, which suggests that the people that got carried/spun the wheel to their NM4 gear would have to step it up anyway to keep progressing. The strategic revamp (oh dear god hopefully) will make building more difficult, even for those that are already alt-tabbing incursions (which, fun fact, I'm actually doing a Ramps Inc NM4 run while typing this). Making the "active" part of an "active tower defense" game more engaging isn't a bad thing, and it blows my mind that anyone could think otherwise if they've played the endgame content (which you admittedly are not/have not). Endgame *was* just "hit tab, type 'startfire', point at where the air mobs are coming, afk until a boss shows up". With the advent of the Abyss Lord, it's now "build, hit g, go make a sandwich".  If the game is going to be balanced, as it was for a very long time, around the idea of a DPS character being mandatory for endgame content, then the act of playing a DPS character needs to be more involved than "Hold the attack button/block button with the Flamethrower sword and point at a lane". That effectively makes you a walking tower, and isn't engaging, so I'm all for suggestions to address that.

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@braydon180 quote:

TL;DR the game needs better combat.

So what would you Guys think about a Combo System? For example i could think about Basic Left Click combos (as example: Huntress: LB,LB,LB = Shoots a Barrage of Arrows) or LB+RB Combos (Squire: LB,LB,RB = Spin Attack). That would make fighting alot more Action Based an could make Meele DPS Heroes way more viable than they are now.

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@Randomroxas quote:


@braydon180 quote:

TL;DR the game needs better combat.

So what would you Guys think about a Combo System? For example i could think about Basic Left Click combos (as example: Huntress: LB,LB,LB = Shoots a Barrage of Arrows) or LB+RB Combos (Squire: LB,LB,RB = Spin Attack). That would make fighting alot more Action Based an could make Meele DPS Heroes way more viable than they are now.

I'd really like to see the monk reworked to a system like that, he needs a rework anyway, and I think it would be really cool and fitting. But as for other heroes, I'd like to see different combat.

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