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EdTheDuck101

Thoughts / Worries about moving more towards Spheres

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I dread change if only because they'll push the passives we adore and seek to ubers...

More ubers = less defender tokens, and mandated spheres to be viable instead of RNG drops.


Less defender tokens = jew plot pay to gain heroes only game. You got those ubers? Nice...enjoy not getting hero slots or like..any sort of heroes without dropping dollars. It's the whole "LoL IP for runes RP for heroes" *** all over again, hahaha.

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I do agree with king of sorrow a bit. If things change and they make them ubers that would be really lame. I don't mind grinding for things.. but please stop putting things behind a daily currency...

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@Shinnyshin quote:
@FelixJG quote:

The idea of lowering the % on gear and moving say half of it to spheres would be fair, anyone with the best gear currently would still have the best gear farmable and those without it get something to work with to help them obtain the gear. I would be on board with that.

I'm not sure why we're worrying so much about (supposedly) screwing over people with the best gear.  IP is being inflated soonish, and if they're willing to inflate like this once then they're pretty definitely open to inflating it in the future.  So all optimal gear will be periodically invalidated anyways.  Not to mention that introducing a new passive has much the same effect.


As someone who has been at that very top before, I think most of us would gladly prioritize the health of the game over being king of the hill for small period of time before we're forcibly dethroned anyways.

An iPWR increase really doesn't screw over anyone with top gear, the difference between 314 and 336 is so small it doesn't matter as long as you have the correct passives. My point is more to not take everything away from the people who have really put time into the game as that discourages them from continuing and the ones who have put the time in now are likely the ones who will stay around the longest.

I still think the idea of moving half the stat to a sphere and leaving the other half on items is the best plan for everyone involved.


~Felix

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@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

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@FelixJG quote:


@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

  I don't think you understand the point of the game at all. The point of the game is to defend your cores from the old one's armies. If you lost that and just had it be about picking up different colored armor pieces, nobody would ***ing play it.

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@braydon180 quote:


@FelixJG quote:


@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

  I don't think you understand the point of the game at all. The point of the game is to defend your cores from the old one's armies. If you lost that and just had it be about picking up different colored armor pieces, nobody would ***ing play it.

Felix is correct, ARPG's are about the character progression, which is what gear/loot systems are about. If finding loot isn't your thing, and RNG, then Dungeon Defenders and similar ARPG's are not the thing for you.

But on the note of RNG, I'm pretty sure the suggestion of having targeted farming for loot does address this issue. You need a certain piece of gear, then  you can farm for it in a manner that increases your chances of getting said gear piece.

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@braydon180 quote:


@FelixJG quote:


@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

  I don't think you understand the point of the game at all. The point of the game is to defend your cores from the old one's armies. If you lost that and just had it be about picking up different colored armor pieces, nobody would ***ing play it.

I like to think I have a pretty good idea of the reason to play an ARPG tower defence, do you really think you would play with no gear to farm for? that would get boring fast.

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@Skyaliciouse quote:

plz no legacy gear, that's happened too many times. if you're going to change it...and I understand you don't want to upset ppl that spent so much time farming a specific item for specific %%% on them, please don't release a sphere that has less %% cap on it than that of an item...and then later rerolll / overhaul all over again. That too has a negative impact. No to legacy items.

Trendy have said future build enabling passives, not that they will be changing any existing ones.

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@EdTheDuck101 quote:


@braydon180 quote:


@FelixJG quote:


@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

  I don't think you understand the point of the game at all. The point of the game is to defend your cores from the old one's armies. If you lost that and just had it be about picking up different colored armor pieces, nobody would ***ing play it.

Felix is correct, ARPG's are about the character progression, which is what gear/loot systems are about. If finding loot isn't your thing, and RNG, then Dungeon Defenders and similar ARPG's are not the thing for you.

But on the note of RNG, I'm pretty sure the suggestion of having targeted farming for loot does address this issue. You need a certain piece of gear, then  you can farm for it in a manner that increases your chances of getting said gear piece.

  1. No he's not. At all. The defining point of the game is not picking up gear, it's building towers and fighting mobs. Even if it wasn't saying the game is all about one aspect is obviously a stupid oversimplification.

  2. No it doesn't. At all. Armored cleanser is found on a specific map, and you might play it hundreds of times and not get one. Making frosty drop like that isn't an improvement at all, and "play the same map repeatedly till you luck out," is not good progression,


@FelixJG quote:I like to think I have a pretty good idea of the reason to play an ARPG tower defence, do you really think you would play with no gear to farm for? that would get boring fast.

YES! I've played orcs must die 1 & 2, the only other third person action tower defense, and an incredibly similar game, and guess what? It doesn't have gear. That was the worst attempt at a gotcha question I've ever been asked... I also way prefer sanctum 2 to current DD2, and guess what, it's an action tower defense with no gear!

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@braydon180 quote:


@EdTheDuck101 quote:


@braydon180 quote:


@FelixJG quote:


@braydon180 quote:

This doesn't remotely come near solving the issue.

What issue? if you mean the RNG on gear that is the entire point of the game and has been since DD1

  I don't think you understand the point of the game at all. The point of the game is to defend your cores from the old one's armies. If you lost that and just had it be about picking up different colored armor pieces, nobody would ***ing play it.

Felix is correct, ARPG's are about the character progression, which is what gear/loot systems are about. If finding loot isn't your thing, and RNG, then Dungeon Defenders and similar ARPG's are not the thing for you.

But on the note of RNG, I'm pretty sure the suggestion of having targeted farming for loot does address this issue. You need a certain piece of gear, then  you can farm for it in a manner that increases your chances of getting said gear piece.

  1. No he's not. At all. The defining point of the game is not picking up gear, it's building towers and fighting mobs. Even if it wasn't saying the game is all about one aspect is obviously a stupid oversimplification.

  2. No it doesn't. At all. Armored cleanser is found on a specific map, and you might play it hundreds of times and not get one. Making frosty drop like that isn't an improvement at all, and "play the same map repeatedly till you luck out," is not good progression,


@FelixJG quote:I like to think I have a pretty good idea of the reason to play an ARPG tower defence, do you really think you would play with no gear to farm for? that would get boring fast.

YES! I've played orcs must die 1 & 2, the only other third person action tower defense, and an incredibly similar game, and guess what? It doesn't have gear. That was the worst attempt at a gotcha question I've ever been asked... I also way prefer sanctum 2 to current DD2, and guess what, it's an action tower defense with no gear!

You just sound incredibly impatient and either sensitive or looking for an argument, noone tried to ask you a "gotcha question". simply put, DD2 with no RNG or required farming for gear progression would not be a dungeon defenders game. as for your armoured cleanser argument, that is easily solved by making the drop rate higher (make it guaranteed to get a map unique drop every win like DD1 and theres still RNG but its predictable) simple solution.


(just as a point of reference I've had 6 cleansers in my last 20 rampart runs so its not even as rare as you make it out to be, just farm the other unique weapons on the map as well instead of only hunting the cleanser and it won't seem as bad)

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@braydon180 quote:

YES! I've played orcs must die 1 & 2, the only other third person action tower defense, and an incredibly similar game, and guess what? It doesn't have gear. That was the worst attempt at a gotcha question I've ever been asked... I also way prefer sanctum 2 to current DD2, and guess what, it's an action tower defense with no gear!

So it's possible to implement an action tower defense game without gear.  Great.  The point of DD2 is to combine an action RPG with a tower defense though, and the RPG component brings with it stats and gear.  If those were dropped the game wouldn't be Dungeon Defenders anymore.

I've played OMD1, OMD!U, Sanctum 1 and Sanctum 2, and they all got boring pretty fast once I beat all the levels.  Out of all my tower defense games, Dungeon Defenders (both 1 and 2) is by far the one I've put the most hours into.  Much of that is thanks to the gear progression and consequent farming.

As for map-specific drops, Armored Cleanser is just stupidly rare.  I believe what is suggested here is guaranteed drops.  For instance, my hearty squire currently has a relatively low iPWR chest because nothing better has dropped.  If targeted drops was implemented I could check which map drops a hearty chest and go do that one.  The item would still have random rarity, random defense stats and random iPWR, so I might have to repeat the map a few times until I got the perfect one.  But it would address the issue of getting the seventh hearty boots in a row when I really need that chest.

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@tdb quote:


@braydon180 quote:

YES! I've played orcs must die 1 & 2, the only other third person action tower defense, and an incredibly similar game, and guess what? It doesn't have gear. That was the worst attempt at a gotcha question I've ever been asked... I also way prefer sanctum 2 to current DD2, and guess what, it's an action tower defense with no gear!

So it's possible to implement an action tower defense game without gear.  Great.  The point of DD2 is to combine an action RPG with a tower defense though, and the RPG component brings with it stats and gear.  If those were dropped the game wouldn't be Dungeon Defenders anymore.

I've played OMD1, OMD!U, Sanctum 1 and Sanctum 2, and they all got boring pretty fast once I beat all the levels.  Out of all my tower defense games, Dungeon Defenders (both 1 and 2) is by far the one I've put the most hours into.  Much of that is thanks to the gear progression and consequent farming.

As for map-specific drops, Armored Cleanser is just stupidly rare.  I believe what is suggested here is guaranteed drops.  For instance, my hearty squire currently has a relatively low iPWR chest because nothing better has dropped.  If targeted drops was implemented I could check which map drops a hearty chest and go do that one.  The item would still have random rarity, random defense stats and random iPWR, so I might have to repeat the map a few times until I got the perfect one.  But it would address the issue of getting the seventh hearty boots in a row when I really need that chest.

This pretty much sums everything up perfectly.

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@braydon180 quote:

YES! I've played orcs must die 1 & 2, the only other third person action tower defense, and an incredibly similar game, and guess what? It doesn't have gear. That was the worst attempt at a gotcha question I've ever been asked... I also way prefer sanctum 2 to current DD2, and guess what, it's an action tower defense with no gear!

...except the games you just mentioned do have gear.  And gear grinding.  Accessing new loadouts in OMD2 is a huge part of the game.  And Sanctum 2 completely pivots on new perks and weaponry.  Not as much as this game, sure, but the mechanic is there.


But here's the kicker.  Those games?  They're different genres.  They splash RPG mechanics, sure...but they aren't (for the most part, Sanctum 2 got weird in some places) about chain running the same content.  And there's a reason for that.  The accomplishment of clearing the map once (or again with a variety of optional challenges) is the driving motivation for those games.  Does that look like the reason people play DD2?  God, I'd love to only run Harbinger once and be done with it.  DD2 is, like most in its genre of RPG, about increasing the potency of your account.  


@braydon180 quote:

I didn't know the gold standard for a game is that it can waste *** tons of time.

I mean...that's what this genre IS.  There are other games where that's a terrible thing and there are some games where the concept of grinding/wasting time is completely foreign.  But the game we're talking about and the genre it inhabits?  100% about working for new loot.

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I fully agree with Ed,


*Insert Emotional Rant*

It seems like a really bad idea to remove the passives, love it or hate it but this is a loothoarder game (even tho it doesn't fit the standard genre), we need MORE loot to farm for, not less! 

I believe that if we get more Incursion reward weapons with new passives, more build will originate from that. Just making the passives easier to obtain doesn't create more builds, it just allows more people to copy the exact same one. 

Imagine for a sec what would had happened to diablo 3 when they had removed all the passives from legendary items and would had just allowed you to use the 3 in the Kanai's cube. It wouldn't have taken more than half a day to get fully geared and every one would have left.

The game wouldn't have survived.

More and more games cut away at their soul to please the masses, just keep in mind that these masses want every thing NOW and they want every thing without afford. When they get it, its usually not what they wanted and they leave. They leave the core community with a broken husk of what their beloved game once was.

Talking about fundamental changes like these make me fear the game is on a path towards becoming a soulless, boring, and run of the mill free 2 play game. Heck it feels like we are back on the MOBA road to be perfectly honest with you.......

*wipes away the tears*

Mic drop

Sav

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Don't be lazy and farm... you can't have great builds if you don't invest time on it. Your will fill acomplish when you get the items you want, that is the idea, that is the game. Stop asking for easy ways to be OP, you will end having P4Win or like...

Nowadays players wants:

Guides

How to build

Easy drops

no Farm....


dude on my days you should farm for weeks to gain the level to be able to kill a boss... And when you become able to literally ra*** that boss, it was the joy of life!!!

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  Vacuum filled ***ing skulls. I am done. If you can't understand that "the game is about gear" is an oversimplification, there is no point in trying to explain anything at all to you ever. And those of you who are going to mock me and *** about me for not being stupid like you should be embarrassed as hell.

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@DarkChuky quote:

Nowadays players wants:

Guides

How to build

And others seem eager to provide.  Already there are two threads that purport to be guides for the new incursion.  I'm not touching them until I beat it on my own.

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