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Currently Dungeon Defenders 2, in my eyes has a great future, there is a lot of awesome content you have announced that I'm very VERY excited for, however, I ask this, what are your plans for further endgame content? and who have you talked to in the community to better understand the direction of where those dedicated to your game would like it to go? 

InsanelyBlu: to be honest even though i dislike that NM4 is to easy i feel that they will make the final difficulty some what of a challenging experience
Other Person: I want trendy to make the final difficulty too hard for them to do. Then us, as a player base, try to do it. If no one has done it in a couple weeks, then lower it slightly
InsanelyBlu: well i would give it a month for the community to figure out, however totally agree
Other Person: yeah, a month is fine. Just time. Pandering to the masses just means end game is meh. They need to say "this is end game, not everyone will be able to get there, it's for the small percentage of hardcore who really want a challenge"
InsanelyBlu: i 110% agree
InsanelyBlu: i think they will eventually come to realize that their game isn't something a majority of people are going to stick around to complete, when it comes to creating the end game they need to look for and talk to those players who are and have been devoted to this game, like our selves so that they can make the experience enjoyable for all those who play not just the common players
Other Person: yeah, I agree the vast majority will get to NM maybe, might buy a few bits like bags or new character. Us end game players are the people who really support them and get all the stuff they sell

Above is the conversation that lead me to write this post 
It made me come to want one thing for the game outside of adding content, a group much like the defense council, in that they are in closer contact to the developers and is created for furthering the game however, it is a group focused on creating exciting ideas for the future of endgame content, ideas that would come from those dedicated to your game, a group made up of people that have earned the right to be heard due to their dedication instead of being buried under the hundred of praises, complaints and opinions that are posted on the forums everyday, a group where everyone who has sufficient experience of the game and wish for the game to go above and behold expectations, can gather together on one of the many voice and chat software programs, my suggestion is discord, so that we can not only talk between our selves but also to those who a responsible for creating endgame content at Trendy, all in an effort to create content for all those players who stick around to experience EVERYTHING that Trendy offers in Dungeon Defenders 2.

My hope is that a group such as this one would make way for an exciting yet incredibly challenging game, filled with strategy, a game that not only makes you sweat but also bleed and roll around in a giant vat of salt, this game should be one were you can fail over and over again but your need for that next slight upgrade keeps you playing until the crack of dawn.

Now for all those who are shouting at your monitor, yelling something along the lines of "The game is already hard enough stop using the forums to show off to people, who at the end of the day don't really give a dam!!" well first of all, calm down I'm not saying that the game as it stands right now need to be harder, in fact i like that it's easy enough for anyone to do all content for now, what I'm asking for here, is some way for those REAL hardcore players to enjoy them selves, due to the majority of player being casual players, who at the end of the day don't really care about having the best gear or those players, who just want to play to relax and enjoy them selves, Trendy's goal it seems is to make everything as friendly as possible, "Yea and, why shouldn't it, the game is free for everyone so everything should be friendly" now first off i asked you to calm down, however you did make some great points yea the game is open to everyone, but I sadly doubt that a great majority of people are going to stick around long enough to want anything more challenging, it seems that you yourself are some what dedicated to this game, so if you do stick around to experience how I and many others feel about the game you to will want some form of community group focused on refining ideas that BOTH the community and Trendy have put forth for endgame content.

Please i beg you to voice your own opinion, i would love to see everyone's thoughts on this topic.
If you're reading this and are part of Trendy's dev team or are someone who manages the forums, i would greatly appreciate you informing everyone else at Trendy of this forum post regardless of your opinion so that Trendy as a whole can either turn down or approve the idea for a group of this nature.

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Your post seems to be a little bit all over the place, therefore, just so I'm understanding your perspective I'd like to ask these questions, since this topic comes up over and over and over and over again ...


Endgame Nightmare is "too easy" ? (all about perspective here)

    - What part of it is "too easy"

            - Is it the time to clear the stage ? Would you like to clear the stage in 1-2 hours? 3-4 hours ? etc

            - Is it the fact that it's "clearable" or "complete-able" like you mentioned within a relative timeframe ?

            - Does the time to acquisition items for your characters too shor t?

                           - Would you like the drop rates at 0.01% for legendaries to drop ?

                           - Do you want endgame gear to "only" be acquired by elitists and hardcore gamers ?

            - Are you expecting Endgame content difficulty to take a month or two until someone actually figures out a way to clear the content ?

    - The bottom line is, if you could design the perfect Endgame content, what exactly (down to every detail) would it look like to you?

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@nuzo quote:

Your post seems to be a little bit all over the place, therefore, just so I'm understanding your perspective I'd like to ask these questions, since this topic comes up over and over and over and over again ...


Endgame Nightmare is "too easy" ? (all about perspective here)

    - What part of it is "too easy"

            - Is it the time to clear the stage ? Would you like to clear the stage in 1-2 hours? 3-4 hours ? etc

            - Is it the fact that it's "clearable" or "complete-able" like you mentioned within a relative timeframe ?

            - Does the time to acquisition items for your characters too shor t?

                           - Would you like the drop rates at 0.01% for legendaries to drop ?

                           - Do you want endgame gear to "only" be acquired by elitists and hardcore gamers ?

            - Are you expecting Endgame content difficulty to take a month or two until someone actually figures out a way to clear the content ?

    - The bottom line is, if you could design the perfect Endgame content, what exactly (down to every detail) would it look like to you?

What part of it is "too easy"? : I completely understand people saying that NM4 is too hard, in fact what's hard about it is getting in to it, from NM3 to NM4 once you have successfully got some gear from NM4 it is possible to do all NM4 content besides maps such as Betsy the fact that the challenge is breaking in to the difficulty rather then progressively getting harder as the maps progress is in my opinion how it should be, this way players are forced to work towards something, to overcome something rather then just starting then saying "i can do everything now". I'm currently running NM4 Onslaught for gear its the best way to get perfect gear however there is no challenge here, i don't use a DPS character as there is no need for it, all my builders still have quite a few upgrades to collect and yet i find my self AFKing for hours on end.
           -Is it the time to clear a stage? : well no that's going to change depending on how many other players you play with, what map you play and how experienced you all are.
          -Is it the fact that it's "clear able" or "complete-able" like you mentioned within a relative time frame? : I never mentioned a time frame for completing things, my guess is that you are referring to the conversation i had, that is talking about how long Trendy should leave the community to figure out how to complete a map with a certain difficulty,before they nerf/buff it. Let me just say this theoretical difficulty that was used as a basis for the conversation was one were yes it would be incredibly difficult to finish something that is basically the highest difficulty in the game.
          -Does the time to acquisition items for your character too short? : well no i don't think there is anyone with characters that have perfect gear, i have hundreds and hundreds of in game hours and are yet to full kit out even a single character with perfect gear.
                    -Would you like the drop rates at 0.01% for legendary items to drop? : no in fact one of the changes i would love to see made to onslaught is a system where you would slowly eliminate rarities until you were just left with legendary gear dropping.
                    -Do you want endgame gear to "only" be acquired by elitists and hardcore gamers? : first off no i do mention in my post that i like that all players can obtain the current highest gear level, which is classified as endgame gear, however i think you miss understood how i was using the term hardcore player, i was referencing those who are committed to the game, not elitists, i find anyone who says they are elitists or professionals in a game are obnoxious, unless you have a way to prove that you competed in an official tournament for professionals then you are nothing but another member of the community
          -Are you expecting endgame content difficulty to take a month or two until someone actually figures out a way to clear the content? : no rather something that the community works together to overcome when it's first released, once again that month thing is referring to trendy evaluation period.

-The bottom line is, if you could design a perfect endgame content, what exactly (down to every detail) would it look like to you? : I'm not going to sit here and write another 100 posts worth (exaggerated) detailing everything i want in endgame content, but the main points are this, an endless character progression (Diablo 3 paragon system is a good example) where final difficulty isn't something you can just sit back and relax to do and something where a player can enter and still have to look around, make strategic choices and thoroughly plan out how they are going to overcome this obstacle 
if you get 1000 people wanting to see my opinion on on what endgame should be then ill write you 100 posts ;P 

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Sorry, I don't think I was clear when I replied to your thread [[94650,users]] . All I was trying to do is ask what exactly do you think is "too easy" NM4. I wasn't expecting you to answer every question I typed out in detail, those were only "examples" of what Feedback is all about instead of the generic "NM4 is too easy ..." well what exactly is it too easy  about it and explain?

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I believe what he means by how easy the game is right now is not a matter of time to complete, or anythign about drop rates. It's simply that the content is too easy. You can build defences, press G and go take a nap on every map currently.


Now people are going to say that it's simply because lane resistances were removed, but that's really not the case. Even before lane resistances were removed, all content didn't pose much of a challenge when you had the correct gear/setup, all removing lane resists did was open up more build options to the playerbase rather than traps/frosties.


We do have a strategic re-vamp coming, so that may (I hope) bring with it extra challenge, making the "end game" something you have to think about again, but my fear (and I assume blu's too) is that really all you will do is build a barricade in every lane with a load of archers, and back to that nap once again.


I would like to see a difficulty that, even with 100% best rolled fully upgraded gear, it took a lot of trial and error to find a build that would work, and even then, would still need you to struggle through it. After all, this is a game that makes money by NOT having an "end", and for a long time now the whole hardcore/dedicated community has had very little or nothing to do. The new levels, increased iPwr of 750 etc are all excellent, but really just a band aid to extend that play time a little further. Something that challenges the playerbase, even those who have the best GG gear, is what is needed.

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The formula of the game is a bit repetitive right now, in my opinion. It's pretty much just a gear check. And in a system that's dependent on gear checks, it makes sense that after you've obtained the best gear there is to have you've, well, pretty much beaten the game! Jumping from one difficulty to the next can be hard, especially if it's WAY above your iPWR level. Often times, I've found that this is when the game is at its best. It forces you to actually get creative with your builds--to experiment around, to think. Let me tell you, the sense of satisfaction you get from winning a game way above your iPWR level--after losing round after round with different builds, after having to experiment to find something that works, after finding that something and just barely, barely scraping by to win the round--that feeling is incredible.

But it doesn't last. Because you realize that at its core, DD2 is not a very complex game. DD2 is actually a very simple game. There aren’t a lot of enemies, there aren’t a lot of heroes, and there aren’t a lot of towers *most of which are just reskins of the same thing*. The behavior of enemies isn’t very complex, and figuring out the formula needed to beat them? Not hard at all. Part of the reason that DD2’s player count got to be so low, so quickly is because so many players jumped straight to NM4 multiplayer after grinding to fifty, leeched some gear, and then were able to beat pretty much every map in the game with relative ease--essentially bypassing DD2's system of progression all-together. After that, there was no reason for them to stay but to grind endlessly for the chance of obtaining infinitesimally better gear that they didn’t need because they had already passed the gear check needed to beat the game! And as a result of that, they left.

A game's system of progression should be about learning skills and mastering them--learning new skills and mastering them--and then learning to combining those skills in fun and inventive ways. Games shouldn't be about just inventing the wheel--they should be about reinventing the wheel over and over and over again until the very end of the game. Whether or not you can "beat" a game should be dependent on your mastery of the skills learned along the way. While balance is certainly a very important part of DD2, I think the underlying problem is that there isn't enough strategy to keep players entertained. Inflating the stats of enemies, creating new difficulty modes--those are just band-aids that will inevitably lead us to the same point that we’re at now. What we need is strategy.

I’ll give an example. Anyone here play L4D2? In a lot of ways, it’s very similar to DD2. Both have four players. Both are coop. Both involve players having to defeat waves of monsters to beat the map. But there are of key differences that, in my opinion, make L4D2 more fun than DD2. One is enemy intelligence. In DD2, enemies are STUPID. The game gives away their tactics at the very beginning of the wave in the form of detailed spawn information and literal, glowing lines that show enemy pathways *and before the most recent update, icons to denote enemy resistances*. The game gives you this information to the player so they can react intelligently to the enemy--changing their tower placement to exploit enemy weaknesses and so forth, but the enemy doesn’t do the same! In a truly engaging conflict, BOTH sides are constantly changing their tactics and trying to exploit the other's weaknesses.

In L4D2, the enemies actually do this. They know and capitalize on their strengths and weaknesses. Smokers, for instance, are enemies that try to grab enemies from a distance with their tongue and separate them from the group. They are easily killed when facing the survivors head-on, however. To compensate for this, the game will often spawn other special infected or a horde to distract the survivors so that the smoker can grab one of them. In this way, it is like a game of chess. Each piece has a special ability. Instead of throwing pieces over and over again with the same pattern until they run out, it throws a few at you and waits to see how you react--trying to see a hole in your defenses. When it does, it spawns a horde to distract you. These are the pawns of the game. While you’re busy trying to combat the tide of pawns, it slips its pieces behind your own--working in synergy to take down your king. And if that strategy fails? The game tries again, with a different plan this time. Again and again and again until it finally beats you.

Doesn't that sound awesome?

I know it's a bit unrealistic to expect Trendy to have the resources to implement something as sophisticated as the Director AI from L4D2. It doesn't have to. It's the idea that counts, the idea that DD2 can be something more than just a gear check--a mindless game where the enemy throws the same things at you over and over again and you throw the same things at it over and over again until you're so bored you want to microwave your face into a puddle of goop like the guy from Indiana Jones.

As an aside, [[94650,users]], I like your idea for a group of dedicated players that works in close communication with Trendy to brainstorm ideas for the game. Once upon a time, the Defense Council was like that. It'd be nice to see it resurrected into something more than just a symbol, which is what the DC has become.

Also, on a completely unrelated note [[62273,users]], I just realized we have the same post count! Or, at least, we did until I made this post. Damn. >.>

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  I feel like this is exactly how trendy thinks here:

@nuzo quote:Endgame Nightmare is "too easy" ? (all about perspective here)

    - What part of it is "too easy"

            - Is it the time to clear the stage ? Would you like to clear the stage in 1-2 hours? 3-4 hours ? etc

            - Is it the fact that it's "clearable" or "complete-able" like you mentioned within a relative timeframe ?

            - Does the time to acquisition items for your characters too shor t?

                           - Would you like the drop rates at 0.01% for legendaries to drop ?

  This way of thinking about difficulty is also 100% unarguably wrong. The only thing that would make it harder going 3-4 hours a map is that it would be harder to find time to play, and that it would be way more hassle. Not so much game difficulty as just an irritating pain. Playing a map 100 times to get a 0.01% drop, or playing for four hours straight, wouldn't increase the difficulty of this game at all. You'd just be repeating your actions over and over for hours, and the only real challenge would be tolerating such a terrible and tedious game and not quitting.

  No matter how long you go, people are just able to frost trap from the first mission to nm4. No matter how long it takes doing that to hit nm4, it doesn't make nm4 challenging, it just makes it a tedious practice in repetitive behavior. Doing the same thing ten thousand times, is not a tactical challenge, it's not a challenge to sit in a lane and fire huntress shots for 4 hours, it's just a gigantic waste of time. Increasing the amount of times you have to do the same thing is not challenge and is not fun.

  For it to be strategically challenging, there need to be different tactical elements to different maps, not the same thing through the whole game. There need to be different challenges from different enemies, and different enemies on different maps, instead of the same stupid random pool on all.

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@nuzo quote:

Sorry, I don't think I was clear when I replied to your thread InsanelyBlu . All I was trying to do is ask what exactly do you think is "too easy" NM4. I wasn't expecting you to answer every question I typed out in detail, those were only "examples" of what Feedback is all about instead of the generic "NM4 is too easy ..." well what exactly is it too easy  about it and explain?

Well as i said under they question "What part of it is too easy", the fact that a person is able to AFK collecting the best gear in the game means its too easy, i don't pretend to know what Trendy are thinking, however they do draw a lot of influence from the community and with the community being mostly casual players endgame has slowly become easier and easier, my hope is that as the difficulties increase so does the challenge and the need for strategy.

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@braydon180 quote:

  I feel like this is exactly how trendy thinks here:

@nuzo quote:Endgame Nightmare is "too easy" ? (all about perspective here)

    - What part of it is "too easy"

            - Is it the time to clear the stage ? Would you like to clear the stage in 1-2 hours? 3-4 hours ? etc

            - Is it the fact that it's "clearable" or "complete-able" like you mentioned within a relative timeframe ?

            - Does the time to acquisition items for your characters too shor t?

                           - Would you like the drop rates at 0.01% for legendaries to drop ?

  This way of thinking about difficulty is also 100% unarguably wrong. The only thing that would make it harder going 3-4 hours a map is that it would be harder to find time to play, and that it would be way more hassle. Not so much game difficulty as just an irritating pain. Playing a map 100 times to get a 0.01% drop, or playing for four hours straight, wouldn't increase the difficulty of this game at all. You'd just be repeating your actions over and over for hours, and the only real challenge would be tolerating such a terrible and tedious game and not quitting.

  No matter how long you go, people are just able to frost trap from the first mission to nm4. No matter how long it takes doing that to hit nm4, it doesn't make nm4 challenging, it just makes it a tedious practice in repetitive behavior. Doing the same thing ten thousand times, is not a tactical challenge, it's not a challenge to sit in a lane and fire huntress shots for 4 hours, it's just a gigantic waste of time. Increasing the amount of times you have to do the same thing is not challenge and is not fun.

  For it to be strategically challenging, there need to be different tactical elements to different maps, not the same thing through the whole game. There need to be different challenges from different enemies, and different enemies on different maps, instead of the same stupid random pool on all.

Trendy are currently working on a strategic revamp, i have high hopes for the outcome, the lane system by its self is a step in the right direction, it gives players a need to adapt to changes in the map, i feel this will greatly increase the "fun factor" of playing this game  

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I think its hard to find a good balance when it comes to difficulty in a game like this.  In my opinion challenge(in this and many other games) primarily comes in two forms; gear grind and strategy. As your heroes gear becomes increasingly better, the amount of strategy needed to win reduces. At that point it becomes all about finding ways optimal set up to farm gear quicker, minimal set-up required to win a map, and entertaining builds for those times when you just want to do something different. The major difference between this game and many other games is the amount of other stuff available such as pvp, crafting, and raiding etc.... that helps a little when it comes to passing time by.

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@keona quote:

I think its hard to find a good balance when it comes to difficulty in a game like this.  In my opinion challenge(in this and many other games) primarily comes in two forms; gear grind and strategy. As your heroes gear becomes increasingly better, the amount of strategy needed to win reduces. At that point it becomes all about finding ways optimal set up to farm gear quicker, minimal set-up required to win a map, and entertaining builds for those times when you just want to do something different. The major difference between this game and many other games is the amount of other stuff available such as pvp, crafting, and raiding etc.... that helps a little when it comes to passing time by.

I'm in the same boat as you keona.  There's gotta be some sorta balance between challenging enough that geared players don't feel like the content is trivial and not so difficult that it's easily accessible by those who haven't quite gotten that far yet.  If you cater to one crowd over the other, someones bound to get upset.

I currently believe the best way to alleviate this is to add ways to ramp up the challenge at end game with the reward being higher drop rates of various elements rather than trying to find some happy nonexistent in between.  Give players the ability to customize the games for higher challenges with better payout without it necessarily meaning ipwr went up because then you're just creating the same problem all over again.

I sincerely hope the strategic revamp shakes things up without creating a disparity to either encampment of player.  But I in no way agree with the decisions to give higher ipwr or the possibility of higher tiers of nightmare.  I believe several systems need to be fixed in order to even consider such things, otherwise you're just creating even more disparity in the playerbase.

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Wasen't there some kind of pvp map in DD1 where both players had to build on each side of the map and could "buy" more mobs to go to the other player side?

Maybe they should add stuff like that for DD2 end game.

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@Some random guy quote:

Wasen't there some kind of pvp map in DD1 where both players had to build on each side of the map and could "buy" more mobs to go to the other player side?

Maybe they should add stuff like that for DD2 end game.

Tower wars :D

That would be cool but hard to implement people would just spam flying kobolds anyway with current mobs

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@In.Session quote:
@Some random guy quote:

Wasen't there some kind of pvp map in DD1 where both players had to build on each side of the map and could "buy" more mobs to go to the other player side?

Maybe they should add stuff like that for DD2 end game.

Tower wars :D

That would be cool but hard to implement people would just spam flying kobolds anyway with current mobs

Just not add those in that mode then.

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@Darkbleadx quote:

i cant even solo nm1 with 710 ip.

whaat? I skipped Insane, and jumped start to NM1 as soon as I hit 50 in my 4x gear (between IPWR 150-180), and slept through it. I had to actually try when I got ***y and went to NM2, but still cleared it solo all the same.

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So...tend to the "enthusiast" (read: those who play 20 hours a day) whales (Wallet-wise.) and ignore the other players that could come in since you know STEAM ADVERTISEMENTS CATCH ATTENTION.

Yeah. Let's go with that. Enjoy your island of 80-ish players that beat all the content and sit with a tower up their arse in wait of the next patch. 

If you don't want the game to be a "EVERYBODY CAN GET TO THE END!" experience, they should just sell it as a gated content for "EXPERTS ONLY". I mean, that - or drop the F2P shiz and put a 25 dollar price tag on it.

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@King of Sorrow quote:

So...tend to the "enthusiast" (read: those who play 20 hours a day) whales (Wallet-wise.) and ignore the other players that could come in since you know STEAM ADVERTISEMENTS CATCH ATTENTION.

Yeah. Let's go with that. Enjoy your island of 80-ish players that beat all the content and sit with a tower up their arse in wait of the next patch. 

If you don't want the game to be a "EVERYBODY CAN GET TO THE END!" experience, they should just sell it as a gated content for "EXPERTS ONLY". I mean, that - or drop the F2P shiz and put a 25 dollar price tag on it.

  I'm sorry but what exactly is wrong with you? Let me get this straight, you made this post mocking people who want greater strategic challenge, because they're smarter than you? Ha, those smart idiots don't need a game to be mindless and stacked so far in their favor to win, what ***s.

  Making a game so anyone can win is going to make it too simple and boring for anyone who's not an exceptionally dumb child. What you're saying is that it should be ruined for the rest of us because you're dumb and also feel entitled to be included in every part of the game.

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@King of Sorrow quote:

So...tend to the "enthusiast" (read: those who play 20 hours a day) whales (Wallet-wise.) and ignore the other players that could come in since you know STEAM ADVERTISEMENTS CATCH ATTENTION.

Yeah. Let's go with that. Enjoy your island of 80-ish players that beat all the content and sit with a tower up their arse in wait of the next patch. 

If you don't want the game to be a "EVERYBODY CAN GET TO THE END!" experience, they should just sell it as a gated content for "EXPERTS ONLY". I mean, that - or drop the F2P shiz and put a 25 dollar price tag on it.

i don't really think you have thought out you point of view, however i completely understand where you're taking your stand, you feel like the game should be enjoyed by everyone, everyone should get equal opportunities and no one should be left out just because they aren't good enough. I like your thinking however I'm not asking for all content to be hard just the real endgame content something that if you want to you can have a challenge. you mention "experts only" well how do you think "experts " get so good at a game? they play the game adapt to situation and solve the obstacles in front of them so you don't need to be a good player to start with. as you play you will learn new things and when you finally get to the last difficulty you can apply all you've learned so that you can have a challenging yet enjoyable experience.

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