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DD2 is P2W? Character slots + Hero Deck update.

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Disregard your love for the new update and the amount of effort in building a different set of heroes. Read and consider in all honesty about my points between F2P and people who buy character slots.


The Hero-deck changes allows you to swap out your builders for heroes dedicated to dps, tank, and crowd control and still keep your builder's defenses even though the builder isn't in your deck. F2P can only have 4 heroes and are limited to what they can do during a match whereas someone with character slots can do basically everything . Before the update, the only advantages is having duplicate characters you didn't have to bother to re-spec for 1500 gold and keep a set of gear in your inventory. The current update keeps the past advantages and adds the advantage to actually use all of those heroes instead of only being able to use 4 at a time for a game. If I recall correctly Trendy did say the game would keep the game balanced for people who played free and people who payed for things. Calling it first that Trendy will nerf the paid-aspects than buffing F2P freedom. They dug themselves into this one and probably won't come out clean.


Edit: Nice to know character slots "may" be purchasable with defender medals in the future but we'll have to wait and see if it becomes a reality.


Have a friendly discussion if you would all so kindly do so. Try to persuade me/community how it is "balanced" between F2Players and those who spend money.

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Who are you and why am I trying to persuade you of anything?
You've clearly had an opinion of your own, so give it another think over or two and decide what you want to do with it =)


Heres my opinion though:

Paying is definitely putting yourself ahead. More slots, more characters to switch between, potentially more enjoyment of the game.

Having 2 of a character can be nice. One for buildings and one for a DPS/ability version.
The more slots, the more variants of characters you can have.

That said, how many base slots do F2Pers get again? 4? 6?

That's plenty to enjoy the game. After you max those out, it's down to deletion when it comes to trying something else (say the Abyss Lord).

As for unlocking new heroes, I think they'll find they will have more player retention when new heroes themselves are free. They really should be making their money from slots, skins and lengthy events like dragonfall.

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@Tyroki quote:

1) Who are you and why am I trying to persuade you of anything?
2) You've clearly had an opinion of your own, so give it another think over or two and decide what you want to do with it =)

3) Paying is definitely putting yourself ahead. More slots, more characters to switch between, potentially more enjoyment of the game.

4) Having 2 of a character can be nice. One for buildings and one for a DPS/ability version.
The more slots, the more variants of characters you can have.

5) That said, how many base slots do F2Pers get again? 4? 6?

6) That's plenty to enjoy the game. After you max those out, it's down to deletion when it comes to trying something else (say the Abyss Lord).

7) As for unlocking new heroes, I think they'll find they will have more player retention when new heroes themselves are free. They really should be making their money from slots, skins and lengthy events like dragonfall.

Edited your quote to have numbers so its easier to respond to.

1) I'm just a random nobody who has nothing else to do and need your opinion on this matter that has been troubling me since the update hit.

2) I have an opinion I need others to confirm or deny because I'm apparently not getting the bigger picture according to you. That is what I have decided to do and I've already thought over it 5 times after the update.

3) Paying is put yourself ahead? I swore I read somewhere Trendy said they would not make unfair advantages between people who buy and don't buy stuff. Anyways that is 'your opinion' of what paying for stuff should be like. I said make comparisons between F2P and people who bought slots.

4) I know that paid feature is a nice thing but is F2P able to do the same for all heroes?

5) F2P get 4 base slots. Abyss lord gets his own slot once you get him.

6) Abyss lord comes with his own slot so people are not really going to be giving up one of their heroes. I either did not understand that statement and am wrong or you lacked information.
7) Apparently that wasn't enough for them because they've been doing that for awhile now. People like me are bad business for them. 

TL;DR = You didn't even consider the differences and just supported the idea of "payment should result in unfair benefits"


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They said that defender medals will be able to buy hero slots in future patch. There is nothing to win in DD2. There is no ranking system but that would be cool to have for people like me but I am sure alot of people will cry about it. Everything comes down to do you want it now or later. Cuz eventually everyone will have everything later. People that pay are just getting early access which they deserve cuz well they supporting the game LOL

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In case anyone skimmed through his post and didn't spot the problem. 

As of the update someone with more slots can have a hero specialized for all their defenses giving them an edge. A frosty mage (1), a wall squire (2), a geyser trap huntress (3), a purge monk (4), a lightning aura monk (5) a toxic shock huntress (6) and a dps hero of your choice (7 heroes). 

That would be the ideal setup for the defense plan I usually use but it would take that many slots. With only 4 slots I'm forced to take 4 of those (really 3, you cant NOT have a dps).


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@NineO_OSix quote:

They said that defender medals will be able to buy hero slots in future patch. There is nothing to win in DD2. There is no ranking system but that would be cool to have for people like me but I am sure alot of people will cry about it. Everything comes down to do you want it now or later. Cuz eventually everyone will have everything later. People that pay are just getting early access which they deserve cuz well they supporting the game LOL

This is true. Trendy did state in the update notes that hero slots will be buyable in the future with Defender Medals. People need to learn to read patch notes before slamming their face against the keyboard to make groundless butthurt topics.

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@Lumirend quote:

In case anyone skimmed through his post and didn't spot the problem. 

As of the update someone with more slots can have a hero specialized for all their defenses giving them an edge. A frosty mage (1), a wall squire (2), a geyser trap huntress (3), a purge monk (4), a lightning aura monk (5) a toxic shock huntress (6) and a dps hero of your choice (7 heroes). 

That would be the ideal setup for the defense plan I usually use but it would take that many slots. With only 4 slots I'm forced to take 4 of those (really 3, you cant NOT have a dps).


remember you have 3 teammates too. they also have hero decks and they will make up for anything your missing.

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@NineO_OSix quote:

They said that defender medals will be able to buy hero slots in future patch. There is nothing to win in DD2. There is no ranking system but that would be cool to have for people like me but I am sure alot of people will cry about it. Everything comes down to do you want it now or later. Cuz eventually everyone will have everything later. People that pay are just getting early access which they deserve cuz well they supporting the game LOL

They "plan" to but not necessarily will. It could be some other way that we obtain character slots. We'll have to wait and see. Trendy takes their time to do things so it'll be about a few months due to the new characters being made.

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Yeah this is just a matter of timing. Before the update was out it was already decided that Hero Cards would be obtainable, but it wouldn't be able to be included in time for the update.

So... technically I suppose you have something mildly resembling a point? Except that it's already being solved?

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@Random Asian quote:


@NineO_OSix quote:

They said that defender medals will be able to buy hero slots in future patch. There is nothing to win in DD2. There is no ranking system but that would be cool to have for people like me but I am sure alot of people will cry about it. Everything comes down to do you want it now or later. Cuz eventually everyone will have everything later. People that pay are just getting early access which they deserve cuz well they supporting the game LOL

They "plan" to but not necessarily will. It could be some other way that we obtain character slots. We'll have to wait and see. Trendy takes their time to do things so it'll be about a few months due to the new characters being made.

What? No. They literally said WILL be able to buy slots with Medals. Not "plan to". Do you watch the Devstreams at all? They're on Youtube, watch the most recent one.

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@Random Asian quote:


@Tyroki quote:

1) Who are you and why am I trying to persuade you of anything?
2) You've clearly had an opinion of your own, so give it another think over or two and decide what you want to do with it =)

3) Paying is definitely putting yourself ahead. More slots, more characters to switch between, potentially more enjoyment of the game.

4) Having 2 of a character can be nice. One for buildings and one for a DPS/ability version.
The more slots, the more variants of characters you can have.

5) That said, how many base slots do F2Pers get again? 4? 6?

6) That's plenty to enjoy the game. After you max those out, it's down to deletion when it comes to trying something else (say the Abyss Lord).

7) As for unlocking new heroes, I think they'll find they will have more player retention when new heroes themselves are free. They really should be making their money from slots, skins and lengthy events like dragonfall.

Edited your quote to have numbers so its easier to respond to.

1) I'm just a random nobody who has nothing else to do and need your opinion on this matter that has been troubling me since the update hit.

2) I have an opinion I need others to confirm or deny because I'm apparently not getting the bigger picture according to you. That is what I have decided to do and I've already thought over it 5 times after the update.

3) Paying is put yourself ahead? I swore I read somewhere Trendy said they would not make unfair advantages between people who buy and don't buy stuff. Anyways that is 'your opinion' of what paying for stuff should be like. I said make comparisons between F2P and people who bought slots.

4) I know that paid feature is a nice thing but is F2P able to do the same for all heroes?

5) F2P get 4 base slots. Abyss lord gets his own slot once you get him.

6) Abyss lord comes with his own slot so people are not really going to be giving up one of their heroes. I either did not understand that statement and am wrong or you lacked information.
7) Apparently that wasn't enough for them because they've been doing that for awhile now. People like me are bad business for them. 

TL;DR = You didn't even consider the differences and just supported the idea of "payment should result in unfair benefits"


I'll start off with: I'm no fanboi of Trendy. Their idiocy with Ark is just sad.
I'm also no fanboi for DD2. It's been a rocky road to where we are, and the road ahead is still as rocky.

1) I wasn't intentionally being aggressive. Just wasn't exactly sure why you needed persuading of anything.

2) Alrighty.

3) Paying is always putting yourself ahead in some fashion or another. Sometimes literally. Ever heard of 'skin wars' in games? People without skins (or decent skins) lose. I'm actually poor IRL, so paying for things is painful. That said, I saved to get DD2 when they put a price on it pre-steam. I've been let down a fair few times with it, but it seems to have finally picked it's ass up off the ground and tried to do something. That said, all I had to work with was the gems I got back then. Of which there are few left.

4) Nope.

5) Gotcha. I always had 6 from when I got the game, so that's a thing.

6) 7 now thanks to AL. I didn't realise unlocking the Abyss Lord with medals gave a slot =O

7) In DD1 it at least made some sense, and the heroes were really cheap. $2-3 for a new hero? That isn't really as bad as people made it out to be. Now it's what? USD $15-20?

TLDR answer = As much as I dislike how Trendy do things, they have to make money somehow. They've gone with a more 'traditional' F2P style. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I do somewhat understand it. Now, apparently they'll be tying more things to defender medals. Why they didn't do this now, I don't know. It's a bit of an ass move, but we'll see.

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You are paying money to get an advantage other people cannot get, so yes it is currently P2W. The term is not reserved for PVP games. However when defender medals can purchase hero slots that won't be as much of an issue.

The two-year heated discussion and controversy surrounding the hero deck ultimately amounted to it being merely an XP sharing mechanic. While the hero deck was far from ideal for anyone, any possibilities the game encouraging builds using anything other than the most OP defenses is pretty much obliterated.

It will be interesting to see if the strategic revamp will help in that regard. I mean there's only so much strategic revamping one can do with so few enemies in the game, and most of those enemies operate similarly to boot.

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@TheWittyScamp quote:

What? No. They literally said WILL be able to buy slots with Medals. Not "plan to". Do you watch the Devstreams at all? They're on Youtube, watch the most recent one.

Honestly got sick of watching devstreams(not just this game) even with people giving points of interests. I prefer to read a nice long list of what they will or plan to do.

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@Random Asian quote:


@TheWittyScamp quote:

What? No. They literally said WILL be able to buy slots with Medals. Not "plan to". Do you watch the Devstreams at all? They're on Youtube, watch the most recent one.

Honestly got sick of watching devstreams(not just this game) even with people giving points of interests. I prefer to read a nice long list of what they will or plan to do.

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/blog/132562/calling-all-heroes-patch-notes

Don't lie about prefer reading when you clearly read nothing. Says it plain as day about hero card slots.


448a117e01.png

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I am pretty new to the game, so, take pov with a grain of salt. I see no problems with selling the slots with cash. Which, they will end soon enough. It's a time gate, or convenience that restricts here. There is nothing stopping someone from having a Waller squire and a melee squire, it just take 14 clicks and item management instead of 1. Full disclosure, I bought 2 slots and levelled up dps Mage and huntress. But since I can't change my hero deck once on location, my monk always is on the outside looking in. Which makes me sad. So, in closing, I might just be doing the 14 clicks anyway.


Even fuller disclosure, I'm on the ps4, so I'm a little behind on the hero swapping thing, all in good time I suppose

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Just going to throw my 2 cent in here...YOU GET A FREAKING CHARACTER SLOT WHEN YOU BUY NEW HEROES

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@Pneuma quote:

Just going to throw my 2 cent in here...YOU GET A FREAKING CHARACTER SLOT WHEN YOU BUY NEW HEROES

Not yet clear if it is Abyss Lord-exclusive feature or if it applies to any upcoming hero.

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@Seph quote:


@Pneuma quote:

Just going to throw my 2 cent in here...YOU GET A FREAKING CHARACTER SLOT WHEN YOU BUY NEW HEROES

Not yet clear if it is Abyss Lord-exclusive feature or if it applies to any upcoming hero.

Applies to all upcoming heroes.

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@iamisom quote:


@Seph quote:


@Pneuma quote:

Just going to throw my 2 cent in here...YOU GET A FREAKING CHARACTER SLOT WHEN YOU BUY NEW HEROES

Not yet clear if it is Abyss Lord-exclusive feature or if it applies to any upcoming hero.

Applies to all upcoming heroes.

Does that also include buying them with medals?

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I honestly would love to pay 30-40$ for this game and that it would not be a micro-transaction game.

Even so, I don't think this is a pay to win type of game. 

But I do think this micro-transactions screw up the game. 

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The way I see it, Pay 2 win implies that spending money would but you at a greater advantage then someone else who did not. This HAS happened in the sense of the (alleged)  imbalance of Abyss Lord, But I do not think the game is at all Pay2Win.

Currently there are only 5 heroes, and as with most games a release of a new character can be a little broken, it happens. (Borderlands 2 Mechromancer, League of Legends every few patches, and DotA 2, Aether Lens, Winter Wyvern.) 

Although I don't like comparing any company to likes of the all encompassing mega giants that are Valve or Riot, They work out a lot of stuff in Beta's and the PBE, Trendy I think simply don't have the man power to do testing on a scale of that size, and that's fine, they are a different company. 

Even if there were 20 Heroes to choose from if the game was balanced correctly they wouldn't allow imbalance to go out of hand; (Wait till next patch I guarantee it) instead let the new heroes bring something unique to the table and diversify themselves form someone else.
=The ONLY evidence we have of any Pay2Win is the Abyss Lord release the first new hero in a looong time, if there were 5 OP new made heroes, then yes we would have an actual argument (and mutiny) .


Do I think it's a little expensive?
Yes, BUT I'm willing to support them on something I want and I believe they will be here for a long time releasing content and making updates to the game, and I'm very happy to support that.



TL;DR
Please provide more evidence before filing a report.
My wallet tho Abyss Lord is bae. (Abaess Lord)



EDIT:
If they didn't give a character slot would you be more mad having to buy a hero AND another slot?
Or buying a hero and given a Slot.

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@Tyroki quote:

Does that also include buying them with medals?

From what I understand, yes, all of our future heroes will come with a free Hero Card whether you purchase them with gems or medals.

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@Tyroki quote:


@Random Asian quote:


@Tyroki quote:

1) Who are you and why am I trying to persuade you of anything?
2) You've clearly had an opinion of your own, so give it another think over or two and decide what you want to do with it =)

3) Paying is definitely putting yourself ahead. More slots, more characters to switch between, potentially more enjoyment of the game.

4) Having 2 of a character can be nice. One for buildings and one for a DPS/ability version.
The more slots, the more variants of characters you can have.

5) That said, how many base slots do F2Pers get again? 4? 6?

6) That's plenty to enjoy the game. After you max those out, it's down to deletion when it comes to trying something else (say the Abyss Lord).

7) As for unlocking new heroes, I think they'll find they will have more player retention when new heroes themselves are free. They really should be making their money from slots, skins and lengthy events like dragonfall.

Edited your quote to have numbers so its easier to respond to.

1) I'm just a random nobody who has nothing else to do and need your opinion on this matter that has been troubling me since the update hit.

2) I have an opinion I need others to confirm or deny because I'm apparently not getting the bigger picture according to you. That is what I have decided to do and I've already thought over it 5 times after the update.

3) Paying is put yourself ahead? I swore I read somewhere Trendy said they would not make unfair advantages between people who buy and don't buy stuff. Anyways that is 'your opinion' of what paying for stuff should be like. I said make comparisons between F2P and people who bought slots.

4) I know that paid feature is a nice thing but is F2P able to do the same for all heroes?

5) F2P get 4 base slots. Abyss lord gets his own slot once you get him.

6) Abyss lord comes with his own slot so people are not really going to be giving up one of their heroes. I either did not understand that statement and am wrong or you lacked information.
7) Apparently that wasn't enough for them because they've been doing that for awhile now. People like me are bad business for them. 

TL;DR = You didn't even consider the differences and just supported the idea of "payment should result in unfair benefits"


I'll start off with: I'm no fanboi of Trendy. Their idiocy with Ark is just sad.
I'm also no fanboi for DD2. It's been a rocky road to where we are, and the road ahead is still as rocky.

1) I wasn't intentionally being aggressive. Just wasn't exactly sure why you needed persuading of anything.

2) Alrighty.

3) Paying is always putting yourself ahead in some fashion or another. Sometimes literally. Ever heard of 'skin wars' in games? People without skins (or decent skins) lose. I'm actually poor IRL, so paying for things is painful. That said, I saved to get DD2 when they put a price on it pre-steam. I've been let down a fair few times with it, but it seems to have finally picked it's ass up off the ground and tried to do something. That said, all I had to work with was the gems I got back then. Of which there are few left.

4) Nope.

5) Gotcha. I always had 6 from when I got the game, so that's a thing.

6) 7 now thanks to AL. I didn't realise unlocking the Abyss Lord with medals gave a slot =O

7) In DD1 it at least made some sense, and the heroes were really cheap. $2-3 for a new hero? That isn't really as bad as people made it out to be. Now it's what? USD $15-20?

TLDR answer = As much as I dislike how Trendy do things, they have to make money somehow. They've gone with a more 'traditional' F2P style. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I do somewhat understand it. Now, apparently they'll be tying more things to defender medals. Why they didn't do this now, I don't know. It's a bit of an ass move, but we'll see.

Seriously man, you started off bad, then got worse.

Their idiocy with Ark? You mean the firm that owns them has an issue with Jeremy who is under contractual obligations, when Jeremy intentionally tried to poach members from Trendy to help develop Ark? Yeah, sounds like idiocy on Trendy's part.

Oh, did you forget that Jeremy was the pilot behind the long road to get here? His rampant sexist hiring schemes and, his aim make this game more like League of Legends instead of building on the highly successful model of DD1? Yeah.

You really need to read the patch notes, as it's been said before, earning the AL comes with a hero slot. So it's definitely not pay to win. You just have to wait, play the game, then earn the rewards as opposed to buying it outright. I for one, have no issue supporting Trendy for a game that has great promise and,  that I have faith that they will live up to. 

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Its not pay to win. Its pay for convenience. If you don't have enough slots for builders that means you need to rely on Public games or friends to fill those roles.

I'm not a fan of catering to f2p players. They bring nothing to the table. If everyone payed, then the total cost for new classes would actually be lower. I'm sure Trendy's finance department looked at non paying customers and paying customers and worked out a price to offset for players who were not going to pay.

There is an argument that other games don't charge as much. Again, this is the ratio of paying customers to non-paying. The DD2 player base is no where near the player base of these other games, hence the higher prices. The more paying customers means they can actually lower the cost of classes/fluff items. Its a catch 22. Nobody wants to pay a high price for items, which in turn reduces the player base. Drop the price, they cant afford to keep the servers up and staff.

The major complaint from DD1 was hackers. To fix this issue everything was basically moved to server side. These servers don't run on good will. They require a continual cost. This is the downside of moving everything server side. It requires a constant stream of income to pay for servers, which means players need to constantly shell out money (subscription/micro transactions) to keep things going.  The more free players join the more demand on servers. If everyone played for free there would be no income to keep the servers up and money to pay the staff.

It is the paying customers who are allowing  f2p players to play. If you enjoy the game support it and buy stuff. If you cant afford to buy stuff it means you have to put up with the inconveniences. Hate to say it, but If you cant put up with the inconveniences find another game to play. The less f2p players means less stress on servers, which means less burden on paying players.

* I dont hate f2p players. There are many games that I have played that use the f2p model, but I never spent a cent on. I just wanted to point out the burden that a f2p player puts on everyone else when playing a game that uses a F2p model. You can only expect so much as a free player, be glad for paying players because they allow you to play for free.

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