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Erictpaladin

Buying Abyssal Lord?

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@iamisom quote:

We're going to closely watch the data and the feedback on unlocking the Abyss Lord. We really want heroes to be a rewarding goal to work toward for free players. It's possible that we won't get it exactly right on the first try. 

Also, I was trying to find a good GIF about data analysis, but this is what I found:

turkey-dance.gif

Just wanted to let you know that the Abyss Lord actually made me want to come back to the game. When I logged in and saw that it was $15 or grind for days and days I logged right back out. Doubt I will ever try it again.

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@Nefhith quote:

Totally free to pay. A well disguised pay to win.

It's funny to see that a lot of people don't understand the concept of p2w anymore. Let's get this straight: you can buy a shortcut to get the hero quickly, but you can also work for it and get it free. By buying the hero with money, you dont buy any raw power. Sure, you get a cool new hero that may have some strengths and weaknesses that other heroes dont have, but its not behind a paywall. 

Furthermore you cant buy a single piece of powerful gear, heck, not even any gear at all! If you want top-tier spheres and a set of 300+ iPWR legendaries, you better work for it! Regardless of how much money you throw at that monitor, it wont give you a single piece or gear at all. The game isn't p2w, it offers shortcuts to some parts of the game, unecessary ones, which it EVEN OFFERS FOR FREE.

Dont expect that f2p doesnt mean you get everything instantly just because you log into the damn game. 
Get rid of that attitude and work for it. There's nothing better than feeling that happiness when you finally unlock the hero that you've been working for so hard!

@Nefhith quote:

The fact that there are other games which have higher prices, doesn't make this one acceptably cheap.

Well, it might not be cheap, but it's not cheap to run and create a game like this either. 

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@pAWHNSHOPpIMP quote:

Just wanted to let you know that the Abyss Lord actually made me want to come back to the game. When I logged in and saw that it was $15 or grind for days and days I logged right back out. Doubt I will ever try it again.

Yeah, because everything new the game has to offer must be given immediately to the player otherwise the game is greedy and bad, mirite?

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@pAWHNSHOPpIMP quote:


@iamisom quote:

We're going to closely watch the data and the feedback on unlocking the Abyss Lord. We really want heroes to be a rewarding goal to work toward for free players. It's possible that we won't get it exactly right on the first try. 

Also, I was trying to find a good GIF about data analysis, but this is what I found:

turkey-dance.gif

Just wanted to let you know that the Abyss Lord actually made me want to come back to the game. When I logged in and saw that it was $15 or grind for days and days I logged right back out. Doubt I will ever try it again.



@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@BestProfileName quote:

Except you just compared cosmetics to a whole new hero.

Not sure what you're trying to get here. If he was stating that those cosmetics cost less than a hero class, then yes you should call him out on it, but he's saying the opposite - that all those 20-40 bucks are for extremely specific items that have limited uses or time restricted, whereas here it's 15 bucks for an entirely new character class that sticks around forever. Seems reasonable to me.

$15 might seem a tad bit high for a new character, but it's nowhere near the "THIS IS RIDICULOUS TE IS GREEDY MONEY GRUBBING SCHEME MANIPULATION POLITICS COMMUNISM!!!!!" that people are making it out to be. $10 would probably be a better price since some people are clearly lacking the funds (and patience).

It's obvious what I am saying - one thing does not in any way impact the mechanics of the game and the other does. I'm not saying they're the worst people in the world. I do, however, think that anything more than five dollars is a bit silly for what is essentially, one hero.

I hope not too many people are put off by it.

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Just wanted to drop in here and comment regarding on how long it would take to get him...

Disclaimer - I am merely going by data cited from the latest dev stream, and assume all randomized numbers will fall down in their exact average rather than any weighted randomization going around.

10000 Defender Medals for Abyss Lord

5-25 Defender Medals from a single map win (average 15 Defender Medals)

100-250 Defender Medals from daily quests (3 daily quests a day) (average 175 Defender Medals)

1500-2500 Defender Medals from monthly quests (average 2000 Defender Medals)


With this data in front of us, let's make an assumption that a player can invest... 1 hour of play time a day, and doesn't waste any moment of it.

A single level + all involved loading times would take roughly 20 minutes if you know what you're doing and are playing alone.

During 1 hour, you would have time to play 3 maps, let's assume that's enough to finish all 3 daily quests you have.

3 maps x 15 defender medals per map = 45 defender medals.

3 daily quests x 175 defender medals per daily quest = 525 defender medals.

45 + 525 = 570

Now, IFyou get 570 defender medals a day , the abyss lord could be yours in 17.54 days. (or alternatively spoken, less than 3 weeks)

And that's without even calculating the monthly quest in.

(clarification - 10000/570 = 17.5438~)


Other facts go into your favor such as daily quest re-rolling, or playing more than 1 hour a day.

(Again, this is all from statements made during the dev stream and the assumption of average randomness, I have not logged in to check all of this data by myself)


For a character newly released in other games which procedurally add characters (League of legends, for one) new characters usually take way longer to achieve.

In fact, let's use League of legends for an example... (Given I adore the game and play it a ton)

In there, you need 6300 'Influence Points' for a newly released character.

A single "First win of the day" bonus awards you 150 Influence points, a win against bots grants 20 Influence points on average, and a win against other players (assuming you actually win every match you play) is roughly 80 Influence points.

If you want to play entirely safe and save as much time of your day as you can, you'd go for a 'player versus bots' 'beginner difficulty', and a single match there would take you roughly 20 minutes with loading times included.

You have no reason to play more than 1 game a day if you like preserving your time, but let assume you do, and you play for the exact same 1 hour we check against for the abyss lord.

1 first win of the day x 150 influence points = 150 influence points.

3 bots (beginner) wins x 20 influence points = 60 influence points.

150 + 60 = 210

So with 210 influence points a day, it takes EXACTLY 30 days to unlock a new character , that's almost reaching double what it would take you to unlock the Abyss Lord.

(Another clarification - 6300/210 = 30.00 , as for 'almost double' - 17.54 / 30 = 0.584~ , or 58.4~% , a bit over half.)


I hope this data helped everyone calm down a bit, I personally think its perfectly rewarding to play 1 hour a day for 2 weeks to get this awesome character - it's an achievement for sure.

(Also, it's not like the other characters are not viable in comparison, tanks were just immensely buffed in terms of health 0w0)


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@Yoraiz0r quote:

During 1 hour, you would have time to play 3 maps, let's assume that's enough to finish all 3 daily quests you have.

3 maps x 15 defender medals per map = 45 defender medals.

3 daily quests x 175 defender medals per daily quest = 525 defender medals.

45 + 525 = 570

Now, IFyou get 570 defender medals a day , the abyss lord could be yours in 17.54 days. (or alternatively spoken, less than 3 weeks)

You only get one daily quest per day.  You can stack them up to three if you don't compete them on some days, but you still only get one per day.

With that correction, it works out to 220 medals per day.  Also, the ingame price for Abyss Lord is 12000 medals, not 10000, so it'll take about 55 days to get him.  Completing a monthly quests shaves off almost 10 days.

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@BestProfileName quote:
It's obvious what I am saying - one thing does not in any way impact the mechanics of the game and the other does.

No, you still don't get it. He's emphasising the fact that in one game, you pay more for things that don't even impact the mechanics of the game, compared to DD2 where you pay less for something that does and remains in your account forever, thus showing that the price of AL is, in comparison, reasonable. While it may not be the ideal price, he's being thankful that DD2 isn't following the same thing that those big hit games are doing and putting AL behind a gigantic pay-only-wall.

In other words, things could have been a lot worse here, but they aren't.

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@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@BestProfileName quote:
It's obvious what I am saying - one thing does not in any way impact the mechanics of the game and the other does.

No, you still don't get it. He's emphasising the fact that in one game, you pay more for things that don't even impact the mechanics of the game, compared to DD2 where you pay less for something that does and remains in your account forever, thus showing that the price of AL is, in comparison, reasonable. While it may not be the ideal price, he's being thankful that DD2 isn't following the same thing that those big hit games are doing and putting AL behind a gigantic pay-only-wall.

In other words, things could have been a lot worse here, but they aren't.

But his point is very obvious, no? I don't know what made you think you had to explain it. I am saying his counter doesn't quite work for the reasons above.

I appreciate that TE are by no means going crazy like some companies have.  I am just saying that it would be better to compare games in which they make you pay through the tooth to get, for example, a character, or a weapon with games like this, and also games where they barely make you pay at all, OR it comes with the fullprice game.


At this rate if they make you pay 15 dollars per hero and they release 10 more, that is 150 dollars.

And the fanboys will say, "BUT YOU CAN FARM FOR FREE". Sure, but some people have lives and would sooner have paid 50 dollars for the whole game than 150 dollars for some new heroes. This doesn't even take into account some of the cosmetic stuff, of course, but most people don't mind that.


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@BestProfileName quote:

But his point is very obvious, no? I don't know what made you think you had to explain it. I am saying his counter doesn't quite work for the reasons above.

I appreciate that TE are by no means going crazy like some companies have.  I am just saying that it would be better to compare games in which they make you pay through the tooth to get, for example, a character, or a weapon with games like this, and also games where they barely make you pay at all, OR it comes with the fullprice game.


At this rate if they make you pay 15 dollars per hero and they release 10 more, that is 150 dollars.

And the fanboys will say, "BUT YOU CAN FARM FOR FREE". Sure, but some people have lives and would sooner have paid 50 dollars for the whole game than 150 dollars for some new heroes. This doesn't even take into account some of the cosmetic stuff, of course, but most people don't mind that.


No, it doesn't matter if he's comparing cosmetics to playable heroes or cosmetics to cosmetics or heroes to heroes, the point still stands - what you're getting is way worth the money compared to what you get in other games. As someone else said in another topic, this is the first of many new heroes, therefore TE does not have data on what a reasonable paywall/playwall would be. After all the 'criticism' AL has brought, and revelations on how jobless many people are, one can only hope that they will fine tune that aspect for future heroes.

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@tdb quote:


@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

are you serious $15 dollars wtf are they going bankrupt ...... maybe im spoiled by robocraft where 45 usd buys me tons of stuff including 400+ days of premium lol not to mention the 3 giveaways in the last few months

Clearly you are not familiar with the micropayment economy.  Mounts in WoW cost 20 monetary units each.   Star Wars: The Old Republic occasionally has single-use dyes for 20 monetary units.  Armour effect packs in Path of Exile (equivalent to DD2's costumes) go for more than 40 monetary units.  All of these are purely visual.  Compared to them 15 monetary units for a new character class is entirely reasonable.

No. You're the one not familiar with MTX economy. I played every single game u mentioned and i throw my money on PURELY COSMETIC STUFF because i want to. PoE is brillant example, because every single expansion is fully f2p, withoud any, literally any content hiding behind wall. Of course - some will cry, because they cant beat uber atziri, or merci izaro, or whatever. But u CANT buy atziri stuff with $$, or ascendancy points. Got it? 
If u r looking for something to compare, just look how GGG put scion in PoE. U cant buy her, u have to unlock her during game. Its doable within hours for new players, and almost instantly for everyone else. If they think "its entirely reasonable to put new char behind half price of new game, or behind 2 months daily grind" - they will never be considered as best f2p game devs, as they are. 
I just bought another supporter pack for PoE, one with t-shirt, costing 100$ and im happy to support them, cos they earned it. 
Im not gonna even play DD2 for free, because of things like that. 

U cant claim, that this is "reasonable", u cant compare "purely cosmetic MTX" vs "a bit of new content". U just cant. 

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@tdb quote:


@Yoraiz0r quote:

During 1 hour, you would have time to play 3 maps, let's assume that's enough to finish all 3 daily quests you have.

3 maps x 15 defender medals per map = 45 defender medals.

3 daily quests x 175 defender medals per daily quest = 525 defender medals.

45 + 525 = 570

Now, IFyou get 570 defender medals a day , the abyss lord could be yours in 17.54 days. (or alternatively spoken, less than 3 weeks)

You only get one daily quest per day.  You can stack them up to three if you don't compete them on some days, but you still only get one per day.

With that correction, it works out to 220 medals per day.  Also, the ingame price for Abyss Lord is 12000 medals, not 10000, so it'll take about 55 days to get him.  Completing a monthly quests shaves off almost 10 days.

Thank you for the corrections, also sad to hear the amount has been raised since the dev stream =\

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@iamisom quote:

We're going to closely watch the data and the feedback on unlocking the Abyss Lord. We really want heroes to be a rewarding goal to work toward for free players. It's possible that we won't get it exactly right on the first try. 

Also, I was trying to find a good GIF about data analysis, but this is what I found:

turkey-dance.gif

I hate to tell you even though I never spent the gems I got from the alpha pack so I still got 3k+, I'm just not seeing 1500/$15 for it. And no way I'm willing to grind that long for a hero which is unfortunate since I do like playing DD2 and I got bored a couple months back after a few hundred hours.

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@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:

No, it doesn't matter if he's comparing cosmetics to playable heroes or cosmetics to cosmetics or heroes to heroes, the point still stands - what you're getting is way worth the money compared to what you get in other games. As someone else said in another topic, this is the first of many new heroes, therefore TE does not have data on what a reasonable paywall/playwall would be. After all the 'criticism' AL has brought, and revelations on how jobless many people are, one can only hope that they will fine tune that aspect for future heroes.

That is such horrific logic. "Hey I get ***ed harder here so getting ***ed softer here is worth it". If there is an example of an ostensibly not p2w game that is f2p and charges more for something that inherently affects game mechanics, I would be interested to take a look. 

Look:https://www.g2a.com/smite-400-gems-cd-key-global.html?___store=englishus

8 dollars for 400 gems. 400 gems nets you 2 heroes. So it is 4 dollars per hero. Crazy price difference, right? 

iirc hots took me around a week to get a hero for free. Today in DD2 I got around 300 medals. How is it even comparable? 

Edit: You can play all the heroes for free on a rotation too. The counter is, "but they're bigger companies. True, but games like dota did fine building up for free firstly.

I have the AL as I had some spare gems left over, but I can completely understand people being pissed off. 

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If they had re-added MU as a resource I might be on the gripe train, but they didn't. Series EV and Summoner were mandatory for progression in DD. AL is fun. You get a nice offensive wall. The skelly archers could find a spot in some maps, but there's no P2W here. The boredom at endgame and fatigue is a different, and potentially more concerning issue. If players can't be asked to generate the currency in game because they simply don't want to play -- yikes. That said is a new toon really going to fix that?


The price in $/time could be a bit steep. Here's to hoping that they take a look at adoption. Not too concerned yet since I paid for everything day 1 in DD1, which only had a handful of post release heroes. Also, after this hero I'll likely as not have the ingame currency in hand to purchase the next hero. If that roadmap stays the same the price should be inline. If Trendy is hoping for a Smite level roster that could be different conversation.

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If i did not live in a piss poor 3rd world country where 15euro is almost 10% of my monthly pay i would not mind buying the Abyssal.

But considering the average pay in my country is 180 euroes per month, i really can't afford a 15e hero.

Needless to say i don't have a lot of time to play/grind this fun game either... so i can unlock the Abyssal in about a year :(

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@BestProfileName quote:

At this rate if they make you pay 15 dollars per hero and they release 10 more, that is 150 dollars.

And the fanboys will say, "BUT YOU CAN FARM FOR FREE". Sure, but some people have lives and would sooner have paid 50 dollars for the whole game than 150 dollars for some new heroes. This doesn't even take into account some of the cosmetic stuff, of course, but most people don't mind that.

It's worth noting that DD2 is still in early access, so there's no "full game" yet.  If they do end up releasing 10 heroes, there will probably be a pack that contains all of them at a discounted price.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a pack with the current batch of four heroes once they're all released.

It's kinda cute how you all bring up examples of games with cheaper microtransactions and expect those to hold up better than my examples of more expensive ones.  I guess what this all boils down to is that things could be better, but they could also be worse.

Now, as for the effort required to get the hero with medals, I do think nearly two months is a bit excessive.  Especially considering there's other things to spend medals on as well.  The price of both heroes and the uber spheres could be reduced by half.

@BestProfileName quote:

That is such horrific logic. "Hey I get ***ed harder here so getting ***ed softer here is worth it". If there is an example of an ostensibly not p2w game that is f2p and charges more for something that inherently affects game mechanics, I would be interested to take a look. 

Star Wars: The Old Republic is free to play, but non-subscribers face severe limitations.  Accessing raids requires a pass that costs $2 and is valid for one week, on one character.  Oh, and you want to actually use the equipment you got from the raids?  Here, buy this $10 unlock for one character (which thankfully is permanent).  If you want it for your entire account it's $22.  These things can be bought from other players with ingame credits, but a 350k credit cap makes that pretty much impossible.  Of course, there are consumable mtx items to temporarily exceed the cap.

Subscription costs between 13 and 15 dollars per month depending on the period and gets rid of all of the restrictions, but only as long as you keep paying.  It does contain about 5 dollars worth of mtx currency per month, so if you subscribe for about a year (156 dollars by the cheapest plan) you'll have enough to get the most important unlocks and a pile of consumables to keep raiding for a while.

How's that as a point of comparison?  I've spent around 600 local monetary units on my SW:TOR subscription so far.  If Trendy releases $60 worth of heroes every year that I get to keep forever, I'm entirely willing to pay.

@BestProfileName quote:

Look:https://www.g2a.com/smite-400-gems-cd-key-global.html?___store=englishus

8 dollars for 400 gems. 400 gems nets you 2 heroes. So it is 4 dollars per hero. Crazy price difference, right?

The comparisons to MOBA games are a bit lacking since those games typically have more heroes and they are less unique.  Sure Smite's gods may only cost 4 dollars each, but there's 74 of them at the moment, and if I know my MOBAs they're a lot less unique than Abyss Lord is.

Also, what you really should have pointed out is the ultimate god pack featured here:

https://www.smitegame.com/store/

30 dollars of all existing and future gods?  That works out to a mere 40 cents per god, and the price will only decrease as more gods are released.

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@--E@T TH3M!-- quote:


@pAWHNSHOPpIMP quote:

Just wanted to let you know that the Abyss Lord actually made me want to come back to the game. When I logged in and saw that it was $15 or grind for days and days I logged right back out. Doubt I will ever try it again.

Yeah, because everything new the game has to offer must be given immediately to the player otherwise the game is greedy and bad, mirite?

Doesn't have to be for free, but for returning player who grew bored with their deck long ago and looking for something new to get them to play don't exactly want to grind for 50+ days. Especially with that very same deck before being allowed to touch the shiny new content. 


If anything the AL needs to be around 5000 medals (monthly and a few dailies w/ a handful of matches thrown in) with the subsequent heroes being around 15-25k.  As the stretch between hero releases will allow for players to earn the medals required for the next or get very close to it (assuming one doesn't use their medals for other things).


This would allow players to get in to the new content quicker without it feeling like a big grind.  You want new and returning players experiencing that new content A.S.A.P and getting them playing again so they can spend money on cosmetics...not gating it behind a paywall/grind wall to squeeze 15 bucks out of them so they can skip the grind.

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See a lot of discussions about the pricing but not much about the hero himself. Is it worth the 15€ / Gems? Is he fun to play and fits in the current meta? Thinking about buying the collectors edition for a while now, and this maybe the right time to do it, the value compared to buying the gems directly is just better. Anyone know if the collector pack will be available indefinitely? 

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@tdb quote:

It's worth noting that DD2 is still in early access, so there's no "full game" yet.  If they do end up releasing 10 heroes, there will probably be a pack that contains all of them at a discounted price.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a pack with the current batch of four heroes once they're all released.

It's kinda cute how you all bring up examples of games with cheaper microtransactions and expect those to hold up better than my examples of more expensive ones.  I guess what this all boils down to is that things could be better, but they could also be worse.

Now, as for the effort required to get the hero with medals, I do think nearly two months is a bit excessive.  Especially considering there's other things to spend medals on as well.  The price of both heroes and the uber spheres could be reduced by half.

Star Wars: The Old Republic is free to play, but non-subscribers face severe limitations.  Accessing raids requires a pass that costs $2 and is valid for one week, on one character.  Oh, and you want to actually use the equipment you got from the raids?  Here, buy this $10 unlock for one character (which thankfully is permanent).  If you want it for your entire account it's $22.  These things can be bought from other players with ingame credits, but a 350k credit cap makes that pretty much impossible.  Of course, there are consumable mtx items to temporarily exceed the cap.

Subscription costs between 13 and 15 dollars per month depending on the period and gets rid of all of the restrictions, but only as long as you keep paying.  It does contain about 5 dollars worth of mtx currency per month, so if you subscribe for about a year (156 dollars by the cheapest plan) you'll have enough to get the most important unlocks and a pile of consumables to keep raiding for a while.

How's that as a point of comparison?  I've spent around 600 local monetary units on my SW:TOR subscription so far.  If Trendy releases $60 worth of heroes every year that I get to keep forever, I'm entirely willing to pay.

The comparisons to MOBA games are a bit lacking since those games typically have more heroes and they are less unique.  Sure Smite's gods may only cost 4 dollars each, but there's 74 of them at the moment, and if I know my MOBAs they're a lot less unique than Abyss Lord is.

Also, what you really should have pointed out is the ultimate god pack featured here:

https://www.smitegame.com/store/

30 dollars of all existing and future gods?  That works out to a mere 40 cents per god, and the price will only decrease as more gods are released.

Save your breath. You're making the exact same comparisons as the previous person did, with the same reasoning as I highlighted, so he's just going to throw back the "They effing you harder there does not mean it's ok to eff you softer here!" card.

I said $15 for AL is reasonable, and that it's more worth what you're getting here compared to those other things in other games, but I agree that it may not be completely worth the $15. I'm ok with paying that amount since I have a stable job and income, but seeing all the outcry about AL's price made me think that it'll likely be safer for TE to reduce that price for future heroes.

The price for Fire Elemental Huntress skin? Now that is what I call completely NOT worth the money.

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He seems fun to me but I'm still in the process of leveling him so haven't been able to properly integrate him into my build yet.

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